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Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

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    #1202
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    There's probably a number of factors at play here.

    More than likely these guys were operating under a "if it flies it dies" type of fire control so they probably saw it assumed it was hostile.

    I reckon that if it was rebels operating this system they probably received a crash course in how to operate it and probably neglected aircraft recognition while they were at it. That said i highly doubt there wasn't some experienced personnel involved in operating that kit as these systems tend to be complex and having someone with experience around is a must.

    In my opinion the Buk detected the aircraft. The guys operating it automatically assumed it was hostile and fired without properly trying to id the plane first like they should have.


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    #1203
    Egginacup
    Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    Wibbs wrote: »
    It's called a Fcukup(tm). Happens all the time, particularly in areas that are unstable politically/militarily. And just to get ahead of you, even the most blinkered can't deny the area is currently in flux and unstable with a lot of military hardware and loose chains of command floating about.

    Annnnnd we're through the looking glass folks... It is far far more likely it was as I said a Fcukup(tm). Your conspiracy nuts of all hues seem to think humans and human organisations are so clever and foolproof, but the facts are - and history will back this up time and time again - incidents like these are of a magnitude more likely to be a Fcukup(tm) than any considered plan. Of course this tendency for people to see patterns in random acts plays into political direction and misdirection.

    And what reason might there be for deliberately downing a civilian airliner? To paint Russia and its interests in a bad light? OK then there are a couple of problems there. For a start if it was a Ukrainian faction then Russia would have been a lot more cooperative with getting international independent witnesses on the ground. They would have had a field day if they knew it was "the other guys". It would legitimise their position in a heartbeat. But what do we find? Local Russian backed militia being less than cooperative on the ground, flight data recorders finding their way to Moscow(a foreign country to Ukraine BTW) and even the deceased being used as pawns.

    Actually this illustrates the Fcukup(tm) principle well. One side reckons the Russians are covering up and it certainly looks that way, yet with all the long experience of coverup that was a national sport in Soviet times look how arseways it's all going.

    OK Wibbs,

    You are so sure that this was nothing other than a mistake then I'd like to hear your explanation as to how it all happened. I'm not spoiling for a scrap or something here I just don't understand how people can just claim to know what happened yet not have the slightest knowledge of equipment or procedures in place. This over-simplistic and vague claim that it was a mistake yet again no explanation as to how this mistake played out is just not convincing.


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    #1204
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Egginacup wrote: »
    OK Wibbs,

    You are so sure that this was nothing other than a mistake then I'd like to hear your explanation as to how it all happened. I'm not spoiling for a scrap or something here I just don't understand how people can just claim to know what happened yet not have the slightest knowledge of equipment or procedures in place. This over-simplistic and vague claim that it was a mistake yet again no explanation as to how this mistake played out is just not convincing.

    So all the military experts news agency's have had on and interviewed have no idea what they are talking about ? You know people who have used western equivalent systems ? I feel like i have entered the Twilight zone.


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    #1205
    Egginacup
    Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Who controls the area? Who controls the crash site? Where are the flight data recorders? Why is there no proof that it was Ukrainian forces? For all the pro Russian shilling out there, if this was poker they're holding nothing. Strange that, given how much of a coup it would be to be able to point to Ukrainian forces.

    He just stated that pro-Russian rebels shot down the airliner and that it was a fact.
    I asked him how it was a fact. If it was a fact then I would like to have his proof as I'm sure would Malaysia Airlines and the relatives of all on board.
    Stating something without a scrap of proof does not make it a fact.


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    #1206
    Egginacup
    Site Banned Posts: 2,922 ✭✭✭Egginacup


    comongethappy wrote: »
    It's tricky to make the willfully blind see the obvious.

    All I'm asking for is some proof. If you have any then your fact will indeed be a fact.


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    #1207
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,159 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Egginacup wrote: »
    OK Wibbs,

    You are so sure that this was nothing other than a mistake then I'd like to hear your explanation as to how it all happened.
    OK I'll bite. That's how mistakes happen. By mistake. There isn't a plan. Happens a lot in war. All the pieces were lined up for such a mistake to happen. OK let's forget the political guff and pointscoring for the moment.

    We have a contested area. Unofficial militia all over the place. Military hardware all over the place. Spotty or no training on said hardware. No real oversight, or lines are fractured. Aircraft have been targeted and downed in the area. Civilian aircraft were still flying over an area where aircraft had been targeted and downed(which was utterly dumb). It was more likely something like this would happen than not. It just happened to be that aircraft. Civilian airliners should not have been near the area. That's the real crime and where a helluva lot of responsibility lays in my humble.
    He just stated that pro-Russian rebels shot down the airliner and that it was a fact
    You completely avoided my points. Again I ask you: Who controls the area? Who controls the crash site? Where are the flight data recorders? Why is there no proof that it was Ukrainian forces? For all the pro Russian shilling out there, if this was poker they're holding nothing. Strange that, given how much of a coup it would be to be able to point to Ukrainian forces.

    I do love how the shills operate. The Israeli guys do the same. It's so obvious. Fun though. I like to see them dance about on the head of their particular pin.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #1208
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,998 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Egginacup wrote: »
    All I'm asking for is some proof. If you have any then your fact will indeed be a fact.

    TBH the lack of proof really is proof enough, the Russians mysteriously have obtained the black box in Moscow, rebels refused entry to the crash site and by all account stripped it of evidence, they also effectively stole all the bodies so no conclusive autopsies could be performed.

    IF the Russians and Rebels had proof this was anybody else then they would be waving it in everyones faces, the simple lack of proof coming from them that Ukranian governemnt forces were responsible even after they have had access to all the evidence makes it pretty obvious that this was their doing


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    #1209
    gandalf
    Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Egginacup wrote: »
    All I'm asking for is some proof. If you have any then your fact will indeed be a fact.

    Fired from inside Pro-Russian controlled territory, using a Russian missile system that had been spotted in their possession earlier that week and one that they boasted they had a couple of weeks earlier. I think it is conclusive that they are responsible for the downing of the airliner and murder of all the people on board. Any other suggestion is conspiracy theory fantasy of the most base kind to try and deflect the Russians culpability in this crime.


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    #1210
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,159 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    gandalf wrote: »
    Hmmm a few related stories on that.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/10/russias-online-comment-propaganda-army/280432/

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/04/pro-russia-trolls-ukraine-guardian-online

    The problem is that these guys make the Israeli shills look sophisticated LOL!!
    Just clicked on those links. Very nice looking ladies. Common enough in Mother Russia too. OK I've decided, I wanna be a Russia shill. Then again going by my limited experience of Ukrainian gals if they have an online presence sign me up.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #1211
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    comongethappy wrote: »
    - Rebels state they shoot down plane
    - MH17 lies in ruins nearby.
    - Rebels, in conversation with GRU commander in Moscow confirmed the downed plane as civilian.

    Someone get Benedict Cumberbatch asap!

    show me one single shred of verified evidence. no smart comments, no dodging the question.

    just one single shred of verified (you do know what that means?) evidence.

    and before i get called a russian shill or whatever the in-term is today, im not pro russia or pro ukraine.. im pro people not making claims on hard evidence that does not exist yet.


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    #1212
    loughside
    Registered Users Posts: 497 ✭✭loughside


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Oh and yea as others have said the Israeli shills are of a higher calibre when it gets down to the nitty gritty. Must be the training, or they just pick better. Actually can I get a gig. Seems like a handy way to make a couple of quid. I've a softer spot for Russia so maybe that might be the way to go. Though I do have some admiration for the resilience of Israel too. Shill for hire folks. PM's welcome.

    LoL !

    and i still believe the earth is flat until someone supplies me with irrefutable proof to the contrary.. and i don`t want a Photoshopped pic of a round ball from outer space ;)


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    #1213
    gandalf
    Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Just clicked on those links. Very nice looking ladies. Common enough in Mother Russia too. OK I've decided, I wanna be a Russia shill. Then again going by my limited experience of Ukrainian gals if they have an online presence sign me up.

    Really you should hold out and see who pays the best and has the better benefit package.


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    #1214
    wendell borton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,336 ✭✭✭wendell borton


    While id don't think Russia downed it intentionally they have to bare at least partial responsibility. Paul Wolfowitz likened Russias action to that of someone letting a drunken teenager drive their car and causing an accident.


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    #1215
    loughside
    Registered Users Posts: 497 ✭✭loughside


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Just clicked on those links. Very nice looking ladies. Common enough in Mother Russia too. OK I've decided, I wanna be a Russia shill. Then again going by my limited experience of Ukrainian gals if they have an online presence sign me up.

    straying a bit OT but nevertheless a true insight :)

    http://maxxxman.travellerspoint.com/3/


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    #1216
    jimgoose
    Registered Users Posts: 20,177 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Just clicked on those links. Very nice looking ladies. Common enough in Mother Russia too. OK I've decided, I wanna be a Russia shill. Then again going by my limited experience of Ukrainian gals if they have an online presence sign me up.

    That is hugely impressive. Meanwhile we're stuck with hideous, pimply, overweight neckbeards with no trousers on. Maybe there's something to be said for the Russian system, starets. :cool:


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    #1217
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    DamagedTrax wrote: »
    show me one single shred of verified evidence. no smart comments, no dodging the question.

    just one single shred of verified (you do know what that means?) evidence.

    and before i get called a russian shill or whatever the in-term is today, im not pro russia or pro ukraine.. im pro people not making claims on hard evidence that does not exist yet.

    It was all in the media last week.

    If you want to see you should do your own homework....

    Also ... "Verified"?
    What verification do you require?
    Is there a verification worthy of your scepticism?

    (Stuck in work.... Can't get to Kiev till at least 7)


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    #1218
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    DamagedTrax wrote: »
    show me one single shred of verified evidence. no smart comments, no dodging the question.

    just one single shred of verified (you do know what that means?) evidence.

    and before i get called a russian shill or whatever the in-term is today, im not pro russia or pro ukraine.. im pro people not making claims on hard evidence that does not exist yet.

    I think you will find there is hard evidence, We are just not privy to what the American intelligence agency's see.


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    #1219
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,826 ✭✭✭SeanW


    gandalf wrote: »
    Hmmm a few related stories on that.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/10/russias-online-comment-propaganda-army/280432/

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/04/pro-russia-trolls-ukraine-guardian-online

    The problem is that these guys make the Israeli shills look sophisticated LOL!!
    That would explain certain things here alright.


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    #1220
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    I think you will find there is hard evidence, We are just not privy to what the American intelligence agency's see.

    exactly. so until that evidence has been officially presented and we 100% know it exists, it's all just supposition and conjecture. its not like a government would lie to put pressure on another government... would they?

    to call it fact at this stage is just plain wrong.


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    #1221
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    comongethappy wrote: »
    It was all in the media last week.

    If you want to see you should do your own homework....

    Also ... "Verified"?
    What verification do you require?
    Is there a verification worthy of your scepticism?

    (Stuck in work.... Can't get to Kiev till at least 7)

    blah blah, smart arse comments, blah blah.

    ive answered the poster after you, his politeness got past my scepticism. you dont.


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    #1222
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    DamagedTrax wrote: »
    blah blah, smart arse comments, blah blah.

    You could tell us the level of verification you need....


    - The rebels said they shot down a plane.... That's verified. (though they subsequently decided to change their mind.)

    - MH17 lies smouldering in the fields of east Ukraine..... That's verified

    - The Ukrainian government released the intercept of the calls between the rebels & their Moscow handlers confirming that the downed plane was civilian.....the Kremlin has not tried to deny this.

    So.... Where does one verify the already verified?


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    #1223
    gandalf
    Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    It just keeps mounting up doesn't it.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28397886

    In the video clip a "rebel" is heard saying they have one of the flight recorders, keep looking for the other. Video was taken by the rebels right after the flight was taken down.


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    #1224
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    comongethappy wrote: »

    - The rebels said they shot down a plane.... That's verified. (though they subsequently decided to change their mind.)

    no its not. a screen shot of something is not verification by a long shot. if it was i could photoshop obama himself pulling the trigger and it would be evidence?
    twitter inc. could probably verify it as real and if they do then thats a much stronger case against the seperatists.
    MH17 lies smouldering in the fields of east Ukraine..... That's verified

    it sure is. but that is evidence of an event happening. not evidence of who did it.
    - The Ukrainian government released the intercept of the calls between the rebels & their Moscow handlers confirming that the downed plane was civilian.....the Kremlin has not tried to deny this.

    the ukranian government released A call. until they provide the intelligence behind it as evidence it cannot be considered so.

    this is how the justice system works. we cannot just decide somebody is a murderer because of a screen shot of a tweet that no longer exists or whatever.


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    #1225
    Rhys Essien
    Registered Users Posts: 3,029 ✭✭✭Rhys Essien


    I read somewhere that the BUK can fire off and hit multiple targets at the one time and whats a bit freaky is that there were 4 other airliners near to Malaysia Airlines.

    We could have been potentially looking at multiple airliners shot down.


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    #1226
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    DamagedTrax wrote: »
    no its not. a screen shot of something is not verification by a long shot. if it was i could photoshop obama himself pulling the trigger and it would be evidence?

    There were screenshots on twitter of course... but it was also cached by Google.... The postings did indeed exist.
    DamagedTrax wrote: »
    the ukranian government release A call. until they provide the intelligence behind it as evidence it cannot be considered so.

    It's a phone call... What "intelligence" is behind a trace.... ?
    They released the audio, the originating & terminating numbers & call duration.

    Tell us how you would verify that?
    Should they take a picture of the state employee sitting behind a computer with headphones on?

    Would that be enough?
    Or would you subsequently claim the agents picture was photo shopped?

    If you were familiar with courts, you would understand; "beyond reasonable doubt".

    You seem alone in denying what the Kremlin themselves refuse to deny.


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    #1227
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    comongethappy wrote: »
    It here were screenshots on twitter, but it was also cached by Google.... The postings did indeed exist.

    its also widely reported as a fake profile.

    @maxseddon
    Donetsk Republic tell me the Strelkov VK page @McFaul and others are citing is a fake made by fans. https://vk.com/strelkov_info

    @mcfaul
    .@maxseddon ok thanks for this correction. I was putting into English what other reporting in Russian



    It's a phone call... What "intelligence" is behind a trace....

    Tell us how you would verify that?
    Should they take a picture of the state employee sitting behind a computer with headphones on?

    a recorded conversation doesnt prove anything without the records to back it up, until they are shown as evidence of who was involved in this call then it may aswell be any 2 people in the world talking.

    just saying something to the world doesnt make it true.


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    #1228
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    DamagedTrax wrote: »
    its also widely reported as a fake profile.

    @maxseddon


    @mcfaul







    a recorded conversation doesnt prove anything without the records to back it up, until they are shown as evidence of who was involved in this call then it may aswell be any 2 people in the world talking.

    just saying something to the world doesnt make it true.

    Why would 2 random people speaking Russian just be talking about a plane being shot down ? And then verifying it was a commercial jet.


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    #1229
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Why would 2 random people speaking Russian just be talking about a plane being shot down ? And then verifying it was a commercial jet.

    i never said it was random people. i just chose to abstain from believing their official line until they back it up with some tangible proof of who the people in the conversations actually were. telling us it was such and such a person and showing us a picture of them isnt proof.

    russia isnt the only country in this world that knows how to pull a fast one for their own needs.


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    #1230
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    DamagedTrax wrote: »
    i never said it was random people. i just chose to abstain from believing their official line until they back it up with some tangible proof of who the people in the conversations actually were. telling us it was such and such a person and showing us a picture of them isnt proof.

    russia isnt the only country in this world that knows how to pull a fast one for their own needs.

    So do you believe one of the tall tales of the Ukrainians targeting the leaders plane and trying to shoot it down ? As you know that would be a really good idea, Lead to all out war.


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    #1231
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    DamagedTrax wrote: »
    i never said it was random people. i just chose to abstain from believing their official line until they back it up with some tangible proof of who the people in the conversations actually were. telling us it was such and such a person and showing us a picture of them isnt proof.

    russia isnt the only country in this world that knows how to pull a fast one for their own needs.

    What "tangiable" proof can there be of a phone call?


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