Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

comongethappy

DamagedTrax wrote: »

its also widely reported as a fake profile.

The rebels said that?

That's OK so.....

Its just weird how they had no issue with it up to Thursday...... How no sooner had the world learned of MH17's destruction, that the profile was suddenly deemed a fake....

Yet its posts were deleted?
(If it wasn't their profile .... How did they know the passwords to delete it its posts?)

darkpagandeath

And it gets deeper and deeper now, The leader is no longer blaming the Ukraine but giving loads of different scenarios. According to the news speaking to a guy in Russia monitoring the security meeting.

DamagedTrax

darkpagandeath wrote: »

So do you believe one of the tall tales of the Ukrainians targeting the leaders plane and trying to shoot it down ? As you know that would be a really good idea, Lead to all out war.

i believe that a plane hit the ground in the ukraine and a lot of people died.

after that i havent made my mind up due to lack of real evidence.

but around here it seems you're a commie if you dont follow popular opinion.

Piliger

comongethappy wrote: »

You could tell us the level of verification you need....


- The rebels said they shot down a plane.... That's verified. (though they subsequently decided to change their mind.)

- MH17 lies smouldering in the fields of east Ukraine..... That's verified

- The Ukrainian government released the intercept of the calls between the rebels & their Moscow handlers confirming that the downed plane was civilian.....the Kremlin has not tried to deny this.

So.... Where does one verify the already verified?

We all know it was Putin's insurgents. It's as if the missile was fired from Kiev and Poroshenko said it was the Russians that done it ..... And I see on Bloomberg that the Russian mega billionaires are screaming like pigs about it all.

ScumLord

gandalf wrote: »

Fired from inside Pro-Russian controlled territory, using a Russian missile system that had been spotted in their possession earlier that week and one that they boasted they had a couple of weeks earlier.

Is nobody watching the new series of 24? It's almost exactly the same thing, a coincidence? I think not. There's probably a Russian Jack bauer running around the Ukraine stopping terrorists from shooting down Chinese planes.

darkpagandeath

British PM on news talking about Russian training camps heavy weapons and on air defence systems, No Ukrainian air defence ever being fired. Yet multiple air defence systems being used in Separatist territory. Seems it's all coming out now, also saying missile was detected and launched from separatist area. That would seem to indicate NATO is well aware of who launched it.

Autonomous Cowherd

Haven't read all this thread (I confess, so don't bite me head off if it's already here!) but I see now Robert Parry of Consortium News has credible evidence (according to him, and he broke the Iran Contra affair stories in the 1980s, and is generally described as ''credible'') that A source says US satellite images show likely Ukrainian soldiers brought down the plane

What I’ve been told by one source, who has provided accurate information on similar matters in the past, is that U.S. intelligence agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms.

The source said CIA analysts were still not ruling out the possibility that the troops were actually eastern Ukrainian rebels in similar uniforms but the initial assessment was that the troops were Ukrainian soldiers. There also was the suggestion that the soldiers involved were undisciplined and possibly drunk, since the imagery showed what looked like beer bottles scattered around the site, the source said.

Instead of pressing for these kinds of details, the U.S. mainstream press has simply passed on the propaganda coming from the Ukrainian government and the U.S. State Department, including hyping the fact that the Buk system is “Russian-made,” a rather meaningless fact that gets endlessly repeated.

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/

darkpagandeath

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

Haven't read all this thread (I confess, so don't bite me head off if it's already here!) but I see now Robert Parry of Consortium News has credible evidence (according to him, and he broke the Iran Contra affair stories in the 1980s, and is generally described as ''credible'') that A source says US satellite images show likely Ukrainian soldiers brought down the plane



http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/

Separatist could never got hold of Ukrainian uniforms could they. Never find any of them in any of the army base they looted. I would hold off on all the conspiracy theory's. Most governments already know what happened and are slowly telling the story as Russia is not admitting anything.

comongethappy

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

Haven't read all this thread (I confess, so don't bite me head off if it's already here!) but I see now Robert Parry of Consortium News has credible evidence (according to him, and he broke the Iran Contra affair stories in the 1980s, and is generally described as ''credible'') that A source says US satellite images show likely Ukrainian soldiers brought down the plane



http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/

Eh..... Half of the rebels are defected Ukrainian soldiers....what else would they be wearing?

Donkey Oaty

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

Haven't read all this thread (I confess, so don't bite me head off if it's already here!) but I see now Robert Parry of Consortium News has credible evidence (according to him, and he broke the Iran Contra affair stories in the 1980s

It's a welcome contribution to this thread, Cowherd, and I'm not questioning the good intentions of Robert Parry but I would draw attention to the fact that he says this of himself, which is somewhat more qualified:

As one of the reporters who helped expose the Iran-Contra scandal for the Associated Press in the mid-1980s, I was distressed by the silliness and propaganda that had come to pervade American journalism.

Looking at their site, they haven't really come up too many scoops since they were formed in the mid 90s - although they seem to be asking the right questions, and the stuff on Gore & Iraq is very good - but I would question how well-informed their "sources" are.

We have Wikileaks, Twitter, Youtube, etc for whistleblowers these days and I would have thought the real smoking gun on the Ukrainian side would have been revealed by now.

Still, who knows?

Manc Red

Every time I read the thread title, I think there is another Malaysia airline crash. Title needs changed.

Autonomous Cowherd

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

It's a welcome contribution to this thread, Cowherd, and I'm not questioning the good intentions of Robert Parry but I would draw attention to the fact that he says this of himself, which is somewhat more qualified:



Looking at their site, they haven't really come up too many scoops since they were formed in the mid 90s - although they seem to be asking the right questions, and the stuff on Gore & Iraq is very good - but I would question how well-informed their "sources" are.

We have Wikileaks, Twitter, Youtube, etc for whistleblowers these days and I would have thought the real smoking gun on the Ukrainian side would have been revealed by now.

Still, who knows?

Yeah, I mean i don't dive into any story from any side...it is so blooming hard nowadays to figure out the truth from fiction in the mulitiplicity of sources...But i ddi look around before postinga nd i thought well, he's at least as credible as many of the mainstream journos out there, so why not put it in the mix..

DamagedTrax

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

Yeah, I mean i don't dive into any story from any side...it is so blooming hard nowadays to figure out the truth from fiction in the mulitiplicity of sources...But i ddi look around before postinga nd i thought well, he's at least as credible as many of the mainstream journos out there, so why not put it in the mix..

definitely interseting. thanks for posting.

mickmackey1

comongethappy wrote: »

Eh..... Half of the rebels are defected Ukrainian soldiers....what else would they be wearing?

I would have thought they might change uniforms in order not to be shot by their own side

comongethappy

mickmackey1 wrote: »

I would have thought they might change uniforms in order not to be shot by their own side

Unless Russia has been shipping in different uniforms, the defectors probably have access to little else other than discarded Ukrainian kit.

Of course its the accessories really bring the ensemble to life!

Donkey Oaty

mickmackey1 wrote: »

I would have thought they might change uniforms in order not to be shot by their own side

What you need to survive is Russian pants, a Ukrainian jacket, a UN blue beret, a press pass, lots of dollars and a first-class ticket out of that hell-hole of a situation.

I'm not surprised that there's lots of drunken antics by all accounts.

darkpagandeath

To be fair I am struggling to grasp peoples reluctance to take the simplest explanation on how this happened. And are relying on complicated chains of events to give theory A: or theory B:

To me it's pretty simple.

Separatists shoot down a number of Ukrainian planes.
Separatists get given/hands on a Dangerous SAM system.
Separatists already trained to use this, all be it maybe not enough
Separatists looking to bloody Ukraine's nose shoot down what they think is Ukrainian plane. But it's not its a passenger plane.

Once this is realised frantic phone calls, exchange of ideas on what to do. Why is it not just this simple why is this so hard to believe.

gandalf

mickmackey1 wrote: »

I would have thought they might change uniforms in order not to be shot by their own side

Especially when they can't tell the difference between a civilian airliner and a military plane :rolleyes:

stevedublin

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Separatists looking to bloody Ukraine's nose shoot down what they think is Ukrainian plane. But it's not its a passenger plane.

This is obviously what has happened.

mickmackey1

What about the suggestion that Kiev has confiscated the air traffic control recordings...

darkpagandeath

mickmackey1 wrote: »

What about the suggestion that Kiev has confiscated the air traffic control recordings...

Ukrainian pres on the news looked pretty outraged at theory's like this, You would want to be a very good actor to portray that irritation. But all this kind of stuff sends us all down the rabbit hole were anything is possible if you want to see it this way or that way.

ScumLord

mickmackey1 wrote: »

What about the suggestion that Kiev has confiscated the air traffic control recordings...

Which air traffic control?

comongethappy

mickmackey1 wrote: »

What about the suggestion that Kiev has confiscated the air traffic control recordings...

If anything, they should be releasing every second if it..... Full disclosure.

Leaves the Kremlin without a leg to stand on.

I don't they will though

darkpagandeath

comongethappy wrote: »

If anything, they should be releasing every second if it..... Full disclosure.

Leaves the Kremlin without a leg to stand on.

I don't they will though

If any of these mad theory's were true and Russia could put any credence i mean any they would be shouting it from the roof tops.

mickmackey1

ScumLord wrote: »

Which air traffic control?

“Ukraine’s SBU Security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev has told Interfax news agency.” http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-28360784 -

I know this source is probably the doubtful 'Carlos' guy but it's surely in Kiev's interests to make the recordings public. Malaysia did so in the aftermath of the disappearance of MH 370

mickmackey1

^^ the part in bold is from the copy and paste by the way, I'm not trying to prove anything..

Piliger

darkpagandeath wrote: »

If any of these mad theory's were true and Russia could put any credence i mean any they would be shouting it from the roof tops.

And no body would give a fcuk. We all know it was Putin's people who did it. We are wasting far too much energy on the whole concept of proving it like a court.
he did it. They did it. Now we need to decide what to do about it.

Tony EH

wendell borton wrote: »

While id don't think Russia downed it intentionally they have to bare at least partial responsibility. Paul Wolfowitz likened Russias action to that of someone letting a drunken teenager drive their car and causing an accident.

Paul Wolfowitz? Paul Wolfowitz?

:pac::pac::pac:

That's fucking rich.

darkpagandeath

Train left the station, Separatists have left the station and area around Donetsk. Black box's will be handed over in Donetsk 9pm. Wreckage and other stuff taken away before clearing out the area.

Piliger

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Train left the station, Separatists have left the station and area around Donetsk. Black box's will be handed over in Donetsk 9pm. Wreckage and other stuff taken away before clearing out the area.

We can hardly expect more. A bunch of Putin's thugs take control of an area of Eastern Ukraine with the fire power of Russian special forces. They shoot down Ukraine helicopters and fighters and now murder 250 civilians.
We can hardly be surprised when they clean up any evidence of their evil and stop the world getting in and finding evidence to prove their guilt.
This is a warm crime if there ever was one and the Hague needs to indict Putin and those he put in charge of that region.