Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

Aidric

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Train left the station, Separatists have left the station and area around Donetsk. Black box's will be handed over in Donetsk 9pm. Wreckage and other stuff taken away before clearing out the area.

Shame it has come 4 days after the incident and investigators are now getting access to a compromised crime scene. The victims in this have been treated with abject indignity. It's sickening.

aloyisious

mickmackey1 wrote: »

“Ukraine’s SBU Security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev has told Interfax news agency.” http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-28360784 -

I know this source is probably the doubtful 'Carlos' guy but it's surely in Kiev's interests to make the recordings public. Malaysia did so in the aftermath of the disappearance of MH 370

It's possible that, given the state of loyalty shown within Ukraine's Military and Civil sides of National Govt, that there may be distrust within it as to the safety and integrity of those recordings before they are handed over to the inquiry set up and also to the Dutch Govt action seeking War Crimes charges and trial for those (to be) accused of shooting down the civil airlliner. If the contents were released to the media before any trial, odds on there'd be claims that the recordings were interfered with and "doctored". Best to seize and secure them.

There's a report on RTE that the "black" boxes will be handed over to the Malaysian authorities this evening. If I was the Ukrainian Govt, I'd steer clear of involvement in it and let everything to do with the aircraft recordings bounce back on the "separatist militia" and their sponsors, the Russian Govt.

Please note I pulled this post after initial posting and edited the parts in my Para 1 re recordings. I mentioned boxes by error.

who_me

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Once this is realised frantic phone calls, exchange of ideas on what to do. Why is it not just this simple why is this so hard to believe.

(playing devil's advocate) it's not hard to believe. The problem is accepting it as unquestionable fact ahead of any independent, thorough investigation. There's still the possibility of a lot more pertinent information coming to light. If this forum were a jury, they'd have sent the guy to the gas chamber before the first witness was called, just for looking a bit shifty..

darkpagandeath

who_me wrote: »

(playing devil's advocate) it's not hard to believe. The problem is accepting it as unquestionable fact ahead of any independent, thorough investigation. There's still the possibility of a lot more pertinent information coming to light. If this forum were a jury, they'd have sent the guy to the gas chamber before the first witness was called, just for looking a bit shifty..

You can be sure the people responsible for this are not walking around make of that what you will. I don't think anyone here has not accepted the chain of events. Well unless you want to go the conspiracy end. It's pretty cut and dry. The only side that's trying to point out a different chain of events is not in the west. The west pretty much agrees it was separatists.

Piliger

who_me wrote: »

(playing devil's advocate) it's not hard to believe. The problem is accepting it as unquestionable fact ahead of any independent, thorough investigation. There's still the possibility of a lot more pertinent information coming to light. If this forum were a jury, they'd have sent the guy to the gas chamber before the first witness was called, just for looking a bit shifty..

I think this is nonsense. Firstly can anyone be naive enough to think there will ever be any kind of thorough independent investigation ? I mean really ? The crash site is completely contaminated and corrupted. There is no reliable chain of evidence. The black boxes will only say that the aircraft crashed and maybe have strong evidence in favour of it being shot down. No evidence is going to say who shot it down. It's simply not going to happen.
And it doesn't need to. We know who did it and we know who armed them and we know who sent them in to Ukraine to do exactly that.

MJ23

My sympathy to everyone's family's and friends.
What I'd love to know is, what has it got to do with the Americans?
Why is Obama on Sky News making statements about this?

paulheu

I'm a Dutch native and the Dutch Prime minister today said that no announcements or statements as to what actions will be taken or what information is available as to who is behind this until they remains of those who dies are safe and returned home. He did say there is serious and solid leads, I'd have to go and translate his statement if anyone's interested.

While it is a risk I feel this is the right course of action. I somehow feel there may be some sort of action or intervention in the area once the bodies are out of there and I would not rule out military action with the US backing the Dutch up. I highly doubt this will go without a reaction and/or repercussions in the area. Near 200 Dutch nationals were killed in cold blood, We are a peaceful nation but do not take well to being messed with in this way. Pretty sure there's plenty military volunteers ready to go get whomever is responsible. I also know these man and woman are well capable of doing so.

comongethappy

paulheu wrote: »

I'm a Dutch native and the Dutch Prime minister today said that no announcements or statements as to what actions will be taken or what information is available as to who is behind this until they remains of those who dies are safe and returned home. He did say there is serious and solid leads, I'd have to go and translate his statement if anyone's interested.

While it is a risk I feel this is the right course of action. I somehow feel there may be some sort of action or intervention in the area once the bodies are out of there and I would not rule out military action with the US backing the Dutch up. I highly doubt this will go without a reaction and/or repercussions in the area. Near 200 Dutch nationals were killed in cold blood, We are a peaceful nation but do not take well to being messed with in this way. Pretty sure there's plenty military volunteers ready to go get whomever is responsible. I also know these man and woman are well capable of doing so.

I can't imagine how tough this crime is on the Dutch nation.

There may be talk amongst the people, however there is zero likelihood of military action.
(The Netherlands is in the process of degrading its military anyway).

I'm sure the Dutch government will play its part in encouraging the UK, French & German governments in getting tough with Putin.

comongethappy

MJ23 wrote: »

My sympathy to everyone's family's and friends.
What I'd love to know is, what has it got to do with the Americans?
Why is Obama on Sky News making statements about this?

Aside from an American citizen being murdered.
And an american made plane being destroyed... I've no idea.

Besides, everyone is making statements on it.
Why can't he?

Muahahaha

comongethappy wrote: »

I can't imagine how tough this crime is on the Dutch nation.

There may be talk amongst the people, however there is zero likelihood of military action.
(The Netherlands is in the process of degrading its military anyway).

I'm sure the Dutch government will play its part in encouraging the UK, French & German governments in getting tough with Putin.

Yeah I can't see any direct military action against the rebels. Putin will probably tell them to lie low for a few months in any case. There's no way the EU or NATO are going to get dragged into a proxy war with Russia, especially with winter on the way and Europe overly reliant on Russian oil and gas.

It's sad for the victims and their families because I don't see much changing in that area. Putin still wants a slice of Eastern Ukraine, the downing of the Malaysian flight doesn't alter his objectives, it just means they'll take longer to achieve.

rolion

Piliger wrote: »

And it doesn't need to. We know who did it and we know who armed them and we know who sent them in to Ukraine to do exactly that.

Do you know by any chances and who started !? I don't know either...
Why do you analyse or blame the effects and not look at causes !?

What pissed me off is that at few minutes after the crash, they had videos, they had phone calls, they even knew what is the colour of the missile and the precise GPs location from where originated. !
I reckon, while passing condolences and respect to all involved personal and one-to-one in the tragedy, is to keep an open mind and wait for a result, that may or may never come out in the true sense of the reality.

I feel that this tragedy just adds to another series /links of humanity errors, mistakes, crimes and sins, that will just prove that an end of the humanity as we know it is near .The Planet Earth cannot sustain so much rubbish and misery ,I hope something will happen that will bring a new meaning to human, peace, respect, politics, natural resources, interests.

Divide et Impera is so present these days, when kids are been targeted while playing, hospitals been destroyed along with homes, planes falling out of the sky because of some unknown reasons, countries are been conquered then left to fight between same people, language, religion in order to gain some territorial advantage. The World has got so dirty, filthy, with darken views on the near closer person ...let the army fight but leave the civilians alone...

I was watching news tonight and only bad & crying out loud articles been presented...any part of still our planet is covered in our blood...the screaming of the Death is everywhere on this planet...

Lets light a candle and get together around and pray for us, pray for this Planet and our people to stop this battle that will only have one end result: getting us closer to the end ! Our end...

Tail Docker

loughside wrote: »

Egginacup
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 27

C`mon komrad, tell the guys and gals how much you get paid for all this?? Are you a party member??

Yeah, I read the first few, then zoned out. There's a lot of that though. It's like a game of "spot the shill" round here theses days. I blame the internet.

comongethappy

rolion wrote: »

Do you know by any chances and who started !? I don't know either

Speak for yourself.

Former president Yanukovich wanted to bolster exports & trade with a Ukraine/EU deal reducing tariffs on certain goods.

Putin didn't like the idea of Ukraine improving its foreign trade & relations so offered cash & favourable trade tariffs in return for binding their economy closer to Russia's.

The EU deal came to nothing in the end as the deal wasn't ratified by either the 28 EU states (on human rights grounds) or by the Kiev parliament who rejected some of its terms.

Protests began, seeing the overbearing hand of Putin in another nations affairs...... The rest is history....

Piliger

The version I like better is what actually happened:

• Yanukovich was under popular pressure to sign a deal with the EU
• Putin offered him 25 million dollars in a Russian/Swiss bank to go along with a 'different' plan.
• Yanukovich pulled out of the deal and colluded with Putin to undermine democracy in Ukraine as a prelude to establishing himself as a dictator under Putin's control.
• The people took the streets and kicked out Yanukovich
• Yanukovich colluded with Putin to usurp Crimea and start an invasion while the government was in crisis.
• Putin invaded Crimea and send his special forces into Eastern Ukraine with heavy weapons and missiles
• Putin sent in special forces to train his mercenaries how to shoot down planes.
• Said mercenaries shot down a civilian airliner and slaughtered 250+ men women and small babies.

rolion

comongethappy wrote: »

The rest is history....

Thanks for reply.
While I repeat myself, with sincere respect to all involved in this tragedy, our posts here demonstrate one more time that we, as humans, we cannot feel and think as humans, at a global planetarium level.
WE still have the primitive rationale and logical capability of theirs and ours,of blaming and judging and pointing the finger to all others, except I.

I guess (and I hope) that this step will be passed and put behind, we as humans will feel, act and respect each other as people.

I don't want to end up in a controversy of who did what with the plane, economies, politics, armed terrorists and the life of all those humans been, I just regret the fact that a tragedy is on the edge of creating or ending another critical stage of our life on this planet, where we haven't learned nothing after so many years of bloodsheds.
When we will start acting together, in our common interest with no hidden agendas, divertive media reports, fabricated article, dangerous comments from far away from the battle zones, personal injuries and attacks given by the anonymous online status and begin working together in harmony to create a complete, open, trusted results, then I feel we are on the right path.... until then, i'm searching the answer to for how long this planet will keep us alive !

I wish you Good Night, Good Morning, Good Day... people !

rolion

comongethappy wrote: »

Speak for yourself.

Former president Yanukovich wanted to bolster exports & trade with a Ukraine/EU deal reducing tariffs on certain goods.

Putin didn't like the idea of Ukraine improving its foreign trade & relations so offered cash & favourable trade tariffs in return for binding their economy closer to Russia's.

The EU deal came to nothing in the end as the deal wasn't ratified by either the 28 EU states (on human rights grounds) or by the Kiev parliament who rejected some of its terms.

Protests began, seeing the overbearing hand of Putin in another nations affairs...... The rest is history....

Piliger wrote: »

The version I like better is what actually happened:

• Yanukovich was under popular pressure to sign a deal with the EU
• Putin offered him 25 million dollars in a Russian/Swiss bank to go along with a 'different' plan.
• Yanukovich pulled out of the deal and colluded with Putin to undermine democracy in Ukraine as a prelude to establishing himself as a dictator under Putin's control.
• The people took the streets and kicked out Yanukovich
• Yanukovich colluded with Putin to usurp Crimea and start an invasion while the government was in crisis.
• Putin invaded Crimea and send his special forces into Eastern Ukraine with heavy weapons and missiles
• Putin sent in special forces to train his mercenaries how to shoot down planes.
• Said mercenaries shot down a civilian airliner and slaughtered 250+ men women and small babies.

Caus€ ...and ..effect($$$)

miss tickle

darkpagandeath wrote: »

To be fair I am struggling to grasp peoples reluctance to take the simplest explanation on how this happened. And are relying on complicated chains of events to give theory A: or theory B:

To me it's pretty simple.

Separatists shoot down a number of Ukrainian planes.
Separatists get given/hands on a Dangerous SAM system.
Separatists already trained to use this, all be it maybe not enough
Separatists looking to bloody Ukraine's nose shoot down what they think is Ukrainian plane. But it's not its a passenger plane.

Once this is realised frantic phone calls, exchange of ideas on what to any do. Why is it not just this simple why is this so hard to believe.

Can you independently verify more than one of any of the statements above, and at the same time could you verify who trained and armed and financed the snipers during the euromaiden riots.

Piliger

miss tickle wrote: »

Can you independently verify more than one of any of the statements above, and at the same time could you verify who trained and armed and financed the snipers during the euromaiden riots.

I'll leave that to you.

Egginacup

comongethappy wrote: »

Is any evidence enough.... Or just the evidence your pre-set agenda deem acceptable.

For me, when the Donetsk rebel leader tells the world on social media they "downed a bird", Im inclined to assume he wasn't talking about duck hunting....

You might also ask, if they claim to have shot down a plane.... Yet DIDNT down MH17... where is the plane they say they shot down?

Any fool can fabricate a tweet and claim it was somebody that it wasn't. That's not proof of anything and if it's water-tight proof for you then I'd hate to have you on a jury. 5 minutes into the trial you'd have a guy carted off to the electric chair because he "confessed". Never mind that it was beaten out of him.

As for that video of the so called rebels stating that they shot it down and they are talking to "Russian". Turns out from the code in the video that it was made BEFORE the plane was shot down. Yet the farce was circulated in media circles who have an agenda in framing up Russia. There was no retraction after it was proven to be a fake.
If someone faked a video and showed it to me to prove a point and then it turned out to be a fake I'd be outraged and would demand from them what kind of dirty game are they trying to play.
IT doesn't really seem to bother a lot of people on here though. They still stick blindly to their guns and don't question a thing. Not a sniff of suspicion enters their heads.

How people have allowed themselves to be so easy to fool is beyond me but I suppose critical thinking has been bred out of a lot of us.

Egginacup

Wibbs wrote: »

OK I'll bite. That's how mistakes happen. By mistake. There isn't a plan. Happens a lot in war. All the pieces were lined up for such a mistake to happen. OK let's forget the political guff and pointscoring for the moment.

We have a contested area. Unofficial militia all over the place. Military hardware all over the place. Spotty or no training on said hardware. No real oversight, or lines are fractured. Aircraft have been targeted and downed in the area. Civilian aircraft were still flying over an area where aircraft had been targeted and downed(which was utterly dumb). It was more likely something like this would happen than not. It just happened to be that aircraft. Civilian airliners should not have been near the area. That's the real crime and where a helluva lot of responsibility lays in my humble.

You completely avoided my points. Again I ask you: Who controls the area? Who controls the crash site? Where are the flight data recorders? Why is there no proof that it was Ukrainian forces? For all the pro Russian shilling out there, if this was poker they're holding nothing. Strange that, given how much of a coup it would be to be able to point to Ukrainian forces.

I do love how the shills operate. The Israeli guys do the same. It's so obvious. Fun though. I like to see them dance about on the head of their particular pin.

Again your'e just making assumptions but stating it's the ironclad proof...just because you say so. That's not a discussion. It's not even an argument. A fake video purporting to be from rebels has done the rounds, proven to be fake and you don't have the slightest suspicions. You just go about your routine of slagging people off and calling them shills and tinfoilers.

As to who controls the area and the crash sight. We should be asking who controls the area from where the missile was fired. I read that the Novorussians (or separatists if you like) didn't have any of these BUK missile systems but that Kiev moved several batteries into the area. And they remained under Ukrainian control.
A very simple question is why? The Novorrusians don't have an airforce so why are these batteries moved into an area where they would have no use? Can you answer that? They were obviously going to be used for something.

These things are huge. They are moved on trucks or tanks. US spy satellite data could clear this up in the morning as could the comms recording between between the plane and the Kiev tower but they aren't releasing that data. I don't know what your excuse to explain that away will be. Maybe the dog ate it, or something but it doesn't make a lot of practical sense to hide information that would reveal the truth unless you have a reason to surpress the truth.
Can't NATO, AWACS, satellites, etc. detect a missile launch signature from anywhere in the world? These things are are not little hobby rockets. They are mid-range ballistic missiles. They are about 20 feet long. They give off a radiation signature and fly into the upper atmosphere. A launch would have been detected by multiple systems and its source and trajectory identified in a second. Yet nobody is releasing this data. This data would easily clear up who was responsible. If it implicated Putin and the rebels like the press seem so cock sure about then release it and give us all the proof.

Unless of course it doesn't actually implicate Putin or the rebels.

Egginacup

VinLieger wrote: »

TBH the lack of proof really is proof enough, the Russians mysteriously have obtained the black box in Moscow, rebels refused entry to the crash site and by all account stripped it of evidence, they also effectively stole all the bodies so no conclusive autopsies could be performed.

IF the Russians and Rebels had proof this was anybody else then they would be waving it in everyones faces, the simple lack of proof coming from them that Ukranian governemnt forces were responsible even after they have had access to all the evidence makes it pretty obvious that this was their doing

Remarkable, but when someone suggests that evidence was tampered with or destroyed on 9/11 you call them a tinfoiler yet it's perfectly fine for you to engage in speculation about such cloak and dagger shenanigans with regard to the Russians.

Very CT indeed.

Egginacup

comongethappy wrote: »

You could tell us the level of verification you need....


- The rebels said they shot down a plane.... That's verified. (though they subsequently decided to change their mind.)

- MH17 lies smouldering in the fields of east Ukraine..... That's verified

- The Ukrainian government released the intercept of the calls between the rebels & their Moscow handlers confirming that the downed plane was civilian.....the Kremlin has not tried to deny this.

So.... Where does one verify the already verified?

None of that is evidence that the rebels shot down the plane. None of it.

Egginacup

comongethappy wrote: »

Eh..... Half of the rebels are defected Ukrainian soldiers....what else would they be wearing?

A few posts back you or someone stated that most of the rebels weren't military personnel when talking about who fired the missile. Now suddenly half of them are ex Ukrainian soldiers?

Which is it

Egginacup

Piliger wrote: »

We can hardly expect more. A bunch of Putin's thugs take control of an area of Eastern Ukraine with the fire power of Russian special forces. They shoot down Ukraine helicopters and fighters and now murder 250 civilians.
We can hardly be surprised when they clean up any evidence of their evil and stop the world getting in and finding evidence to prove their guilt.
This is a warm crime if there ever was one and the Hague needs to indict Putin and those he put in charge of that region.

You don't indict people without evidence but evidence and proof don't seem to feature highly on your list of items needed to ascertain culpability. A simple "that guy did it" is all you appear to require.

Egginacup

paulheu wrote: »

I'm a Dutch native and the Dutch Prime minister today said that no announcements or statements as to what actions will be taken or what information is available as to who is behind this until they remains of those who dies are safe and returned home. He did say there is serious and solid leads, I'd have to go and translate his statement if anyone's interested.

While it is a risk I feel this is the right course of action. I somehow feel there may be some sort of action or intervention in the area once the bodies are out of there and I would not rule out military action with the US backing the Dutch up. I highly doubt this will go without a reaction and/or repercussions in the area. Near 200 Dutch nationals were killed in cold blood, We are a peaceful nation but do not take well to being messed with in this way. Pretty sure there's plenty military volunteers ready to go get whomever is responsible. I also know these man and woman are well capable of doing so.

Well I hope you have ironclad proof before you take any military action. The Dutch people aren't gullible idiots like some. They don't fall for stories about WMDs just because someone said so.

InTheTrees

Basically Russia is one step off being a third world dictatorship.

Putin is crapping on the "constitution" at every opportunity. First he's president, then he's prime minister, then he's president again. Who knows what office he'll invent next. He throws his political enemies in jail. He controls the media and the courts. I believe he just introduced a law against making fun of him. There's huge oil wealth being sucked out of the country by putin and his oligarch friends, meanwhile average russians have a life expectancy of 70 years! Its a joke. Even saudi arabia is more socially responsible.

And no doubt putin will keep "winning" elections, over and over.

So lets not pretend for a second we're dealing with a normal western democracy here.

InTheTrees

Egginacup wrote: »

None of that is evidence that the rebels shot down the plane. None of it.

Well why the fck are they acting like they did it then?

Everything they've done in response screams We Did it!

They dont seem to understand the world is watching as they try and cover it up. Its really sad.

comongethappy

Egginacup wrote: »

Which is it

Its whatever your boss tells you to say it is

Morning Eggy, hope your team-leader told you to up your game today.... the Kremlin are losing this one.....badly!

Autonomous Cowherd

I honestly don't think it has been proven indisputably either way. i hope all the people who are gung-ho about it being Russian separatists and thus by extension a Russian act of terrorism will come back here in the future and retract if it is showed that the edges are a bit more blurry. look at the bigger picture. Russia has been wiping the floor with the US in terms of foreign policy (Syria and so on) for a good while, and now the play is that Russia is a terrorist state, needing sanctions or indeterminate actions, and so on. That's convenient, isn't it. the whole world outraged at the Monster Putin for shooting down a civilian plane. But what if...just what if..it gradually seeps out that it just may have been someone else, Ukrainians, or whatever, then this is going to look very staged.

I have not decided either way. I think it is best to wait and see what turns up in the mix. Plus calling that egg poster (sorry have forgotten name) a shill is very mean, just because they have a different opinion than you. And I'm not a shill either. you can easily look back on my silly posting past

gandalf

These Putinbots are early risers eh