Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

comongethappy

gandalf wrote: »

These Putinbots are early risers eh

Its already past 10 o'clock there.
Their day is well under way.

old_aussie

Looks like putins inner circle of support is beginning to crumble.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/10981711/Russias-oligarchs-fear-further-sanctions-over-Ukraine.html

Autonomous Cowherd

gandalf wrote: »

These Putinbots are early risers eh

I'm not a Putinbot. I have said i do NOT KNOW what is the truth of this issue...but then neither do you. I am an ordinary Irish woman trying, in spite of the deluge of proven misinformation over the years, to keep my critical thinking function sharp. If it means I suffer the discomfort of going against the majority consensus regularly and if it means I am also regularly wrong, then so be it. I would prefer to think for myself than to jump on passing bandwagons.
P.S. Ordinary housewives get up early too.

inforfun

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juW7fSmJm-k

Speech by Dutch FA minister in the UN last night.

About time the politicians finally opened their mouth.
Should have kicked the ambassadors of Ukraine and Russia straight out of the country and while they were at it, Putins daughter as well.

gandalf

old_aussie wrote: »

Looks like putins inner circle of support is beginning to crumble.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/10981711/Russias-oligarchs-fear-further-sanctions-over-Ukraine.html

Good that's the signal to ramp up the sanctions and restrictions. Remove his support base.

gandalf

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

I'm not a Putinbot.

It wasn't direct at you Cowherd, one quick look at your posting history and it's obvious that you engage in other topics actively on the forums.

I'm directing this at users who are limited to one thread or one topic. They are quite easy to spot.

comongethappy

gandalf wrote: »

Good that's the signal to ramp up the sanctions and restrictions. Remove his support base.

It isn't going to happen though.

France's very existence seemingly hinges on selling Russia those two assault carriers.

danniemcq

Egginacup wrote: »

As for that video of the so called rebels stating that they shot it down and they are talking to "Russian". Turns out from the code in the video that it was made BEFORE the plane was shot down. Yet the farce was circulated in media circles who have an agenda in framing up Russia. There was no retraction after it was proven to be a fake.
If someone faked a video and showed it to me to prove a point and then it turned out to be a fake I'd be outraged and would demand from them what kind of dirty game are they trying to play.

Have you a link to this?

Call me Al

inforfun wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juW7fSmJm-k

Speech by Dutch FA minister in the UN last night.

About time the politicians finally opened their mouth.
Should have kicked the ambassadors of Ukraine and Russia straight out of the country and while they were at it, Putins daughter as well.

I watched this live last night. It was very moving to listen to and really emphasized that these are real victims who have real families watching all of this unfold on the international stage, through our media.

In the press conference afterwards the Australian foreign minister was not hesitant in calling out the Russian authorities for not controllng the loyalists better to allow comprehensive access for body retrieval and crime scene investigation.

Wibbs

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

I honestly don't think it has been proven indisputably either way.

Oh I agree and I most certainly don't even begin to imagine Putin had even the sniff of personal involvement in this.

I would be more sure that Ukrainian militia with Russian sympathies and support are the most likely ones to have downed the plane. Even so it was clearly a fcukup, a mistake, not a deliberate attack on a civilian airliner.

It's what has happened subsequently that's both a tragedy and a farce. Clearly there has been western point scoring agin Putin. To his detractors this incident was like all their Christmases had come at once. The handling of the incident on the ground has been a disaster. If anyone needed proof that no one was really in charge of this - from the moment the missile was loosed to the handling of the crash site - then subsequent muddled events should be all the proof you need.

Wibbs

Call me Al wrote: »

In the press conference afterwards the Australian foreign minister was not hesitant in calling out the Russian authorities for not controllng the loyalists better to allow comprehensive access for body retrieval and crime scene investigation.

Standard political sabre rattling for those in the cheap seats easily swayed. He knows damned well, or at least I hope he knows, that the "Russian authorities"[AKA Putin] will have loose enough, if any control on local militias, even if they're flying the Russian flag.

Unofficial militias are usually made up of local strongmen, ex military with pretensions, even criminals and are almost impossible to control and are often a bigger headache than official forces of whatever enemy you're engaging. History has shown this time and time again. This very incident from start to finish illustrates this. Military planners have traditionally preferred to avoid using them for this reason and only will when there's no "official" war like in this case. Make no mistake, if in imaginary land Russia decided to go to war with Ukraine in the morning these militias would be sidetracked, even eliminated. They're simply too much of a bloody headache.

gandalf

Wibbs wrote: »

Unofficial militias are usually made up of local strongmen, ex military with pretensions, even criminals and are almost impossible to control and are often a bigger headache than official forces of whatever enemy you're engaging. History has shown this time and time again. This very incident from start to finish illustrates this. Military planners have traditionally preferred to avoid using them for this reason and only will when there's no "official" war like in this case. Make no mistake, if in imaginary land Russia decided to go to war with Ukraine in the morning these militias would be sidetracked, even eliminated. They're simply too much of a bloody headache.

Well that's a damn good argument to not arm them to the teeth with tanks, artillery and anti-aircraft missiles

comongethappy

Wibbs wrote: »

They're simply too much of a bloody headache.

Indeed, that genie is out of the bottle.

And though the Kremlin & its operatives on the ground have some influence, I think the level of influence is somewhat overstated.

jelenka

I thought that after plane crash the conversation between pilot and whoever was leading it in that area ( i presume kiev airport) would be out for an investigation and maybe made public. Why there is nothing about this anywhere? was the pilot instructed to change flight path or anything?
people here are making assumptions and blaming russia for it without ANY solid proof, there hasn't been one piece of proper evidence, but everyone is already decided who it was. Within minutes it was claimed that it was shot from the ground, what was used and who pressed the button, yet when the other Malaysia plane went missing they have been searching in all directions with no result.
Looks like it was planned, kiev led the plane to a x spot, where ukrainian army shot it down. I make my assumption same way as all of you - without any proof.
Stop calling people bots and shills, just because someone doesn't want to follow the herd and has their own opinion, they are entitled to express it.

deco nate

jelenka wrote: »

I thought that after plane crash the conversation between pilot and whoever was leading it in that area ( i presume kiev airport) would be out for an investigation and maybe made public. Why there is nothing about this anywhere? was the pilot instructed to change flight path or anything?
people here are making assumptions and blaming russia for it without ANY solid proof, there hasn't been one piece of proper evidence, but everyone is already decided who it was. Within minutes it was claimed that it was shot from the ground, what was used and who pressed the button, yet when the other Malaysia plane went missing they have been searching in all directions with no result.
Looks like it was planned, kiev led the plane to a x spot, where ukrainian army shot it down. I make my assumption same way as all of you - without any proof.
Stop calling people bots and shills, just because someone doesn't want to follow the herd and has their own opinion, they are entitled to express it.

Ok Vladimir, thanks for clearing it all up for us.

comongethappy

jelenka wrote: »

I thought that after plane crash the conversation between pilot and whoever was leading it in that area ( i presume kiev airport) would be out for an investigation and maybe made public. Why there is nothing about this anywhere? was the pilot instructed to change flight path or anything?
people here are making assumptions and blaming russia for it without ANY solid proof, there hasn't been one piece of proper evidence, but everyone is already decided who it was. Within minutes it was claimed that it was shot from the ground, what was used and who pressed the button, yet when the other Malaysia plane went missing they have been searching in all directions with no result.
Looks like it was planned, kiev led the plane to a x spot, where ukrainian army shot it down. I make my assumption same way as all of you - without any proof.
Stop calling people bots and shills, just because someone doesn't want to follow the herd and has their own opinion, they are entitled to express it.

If it turns out to be one of the other 192 nations on earth & not Russia, I'll buy you a coke.

deco nate

comongethappy wrote: »

If it turns out to be one of the other 192 nations on earth & not Russia, I'll buy you a coke.

Oh and hookers , don't forget the hookers!

Muahahaha

Egginacup wrote: »

You don't indict people without evidence but evidence and proof don't seem to feature highly on your list of items needed to ascertain culpability. A simple "that guy did it" is all you appear to require.

International relations is not decided in a court of law. Nation states can only go on the body of evidence and make decisions based on that.

InTheTrees wrote: »

Well why the fck are they acting like they did it then?

Everything they've done in response screams We Did it!

They dont seem to understand the world is watching as they try and cover it up. Its really sad.

For me my mind is not 100% of the way there, more like 90%. Directly after the attack it was 30-40%, mainly based on the fact they had shot down a Ukrainian cargo plane just a few days previous. But the reaction from the Russian media and establishment is what has me convinced that it was the separatists who carried this out. They've peddaled stories of Putins Presidential plane flying in the area and being the real target as well as a host of other unlikely scenarios, the manner in which the Russian media has conducted itself really does point to a guilty Putin.

Just for the record though, like others I think downing the plane was a mistake, never intentional. It's hard to know if there were Russian special agents involved too, with a missile launcher present it'd be hard to not seeing them as part of the equation.

tigger123

Anyone know what the Russia Today coverage is like? Which way are they spinning the story? Or are they covering it at all?!

comongethappy

tigger123 wrote: »

Anyone know what the Russia Today coverage is like? Which way are they spinning the story? Or are they covering it at all?!

They can't help but cover it.

On the day itself they said it was the Ukrainian army trying to shoot down Putin's jet.

One if their presenters out of London resigned in disgust.... Haven't glanced since.

Comical Ali stuff.

Wibbs

gandalf wrote: »

Well that's a damn good argument to not arm them to the teeth with tanks, artillery and anti-aircraft missiles

Sure. Whatever about tanks and artillery pieces, even hand held SAM systems, it was a seriously stupid idea to give them access to SAM systems capable of reaching civilian flight levels. A Fcukup waiting to happen.

comongethappy wrote: »

Indeed, that genie is out of the bottle.

And though the Kremlin & its operatives on the ground have some influence, I think the level of influence is somewhat overstated.

+1. I suspect that the militia flying the Russian flag are pretty autonomous. Both from a political point of view(plausible deniability) and a practical one.

uncle_sam_ie

jelenka wrote: »

I thought that after plane crash the conversation between pilot and whoever was leading it in that area ( i presume kiev airport) would be out for an investigation and maybe made public. Why there is nothing about this anywhere? was the pilot instructed to change flight path or anything?
people here are making assumptions and blaming russia for it without ANY solid proof, there hasn't been one piece of proper evidence, but everyone is already decided who it was. Within minutes it was claimed that it was shot from the ground, what was used and who pressed the button, yet when the other Malaysia plane went missing they have been searching in all directions with no result.
Looks like it was planned, kiev led the plane to a x spot, where ukrainian army shot it down. I make my assumption same way as all of you - without any proof.
Stop calling people bots and shills, just because someone doesn't want to follow the herd and has their own opinion, they are entitled to express it.

Yes there has. This video on social media clearly shows Russian direct involvement plus some dude on twitter said so. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrYZiiR5Zno

It's after hours so I reckon Jack Bauer should be sent in and the culprits will be in an American prison in 24hrs.

aloyisious

With the unanimous UN Security Council vote on the crash scene and investigators, I guess Putin know's he's boxed-in due to his own words and the actions of the "rebel" separatists. I can't imagine that the Russian UN ambassador took an independent stand on the vote. I await changes in the Politburo and/or Defence Staff. I'd like to see how the oligarchs are viewing this, maybe as "Another Fine Mess You've Landed Us In, Vlad".

On the Dutch side, I can't see the return of the bodies to the families for funerals being fast, due to the numbers, the proper matching-up of remains body parts, the I/D'ing of the remains by prints, the (where it applies) morticians work, then placing the remains in transit-caskets, let alone (if the families and the Govt agree) any forensic/P-M work required by law, all to be followed by the funerals. No one want's to be held to account for mistakes or for something to be found at the scene in Ukraine weeks or months later by some-one out walking a dog.

I listened to an RTE interviewer and a reporter in Ukraine, the reporter talking about how he and other reporters were going to try and follow the body-recovery people up to the train to try and get details of the bodies (I presume he meant photos) when the bodies are being loaded/unloaded (whichever applies). I know that reporters are being paid to get the news but discussing that part of his work over the airwaves is stupid and insensitive to the relatives. Quite simply, he's talking about hundreds of bodies/body parts which were subject to the stress of an explosion and burns, then left for days unprotected out in the open air by the "separatists".

who_me

Piliger wrote: »

I think this is nonsense. Firstly can anyone be naive enough to think there will ever be any kind of thorough independent investigation ? I mean really ? The crash site is completely contaminated and corrupted. There is no reliable chain of evidence. The black boxes will only say that the aircraft crashed and maybe have strong evidence in favour of it being shot down. No evidence is going to say who shot it down. It's simply not going to happen.
And it doesn't need to. We know who did it and we know who armed them and we know who sent them in to Ukraine to do exactly that.

Thanks, this is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about. You've watched a news report, therefore you know there's no evidence. You know what the flight recorders will say. You know no evidence that can prove who shot it down.. In spite of that you know who did it and that they did it deliberately.

Sorry, but I'd rather wait for an investigation before dishing out verdict & sentence.

gandalf

All the flight recorders will show is that a catastrophic event occurred to the airplane. They might get explosive residue off the body of the plane (providing it hasn't been "cleansed") or off some of the bodies although that may have degraded given the time it has taken to recover them and put them into refrigerated storage.

Piliger

Wibbs wrote: »

Standard political sabre rattling for those in the cheap seats easily swayed. He knows damned well, or at least I hope he knows, that the "Russian authorities"[AKA Putin] will have loose enough, if any control on local militias, even if they're flying the Russian flag.

Unofficial militias are usually made up of local strongmen, ex military with pretensions, even criminals and are almost impossible to control and are often a bigger headache than official forces of whatever enemy you're engaging. History has shown this time and time again. This very incident from start to finish illustrates this. Military planners have traditionally preferred to avoid using them for this reason and only will when there's no "official" war like in this case. Make no mistake, if in imaginary land Russia decided to go to war with Ukraine in the morning these militias would be sidetracked, even eliminated. They're simply too much of a bloody headache.

The truth is completely different. These groups generally do exactly what they are told and follow the line dictated by the people that pay their wages and supply the arms.
These thugs in Ukraine, backed by the Russian special forces show all the signs of following Putin's orders to the letter. It is transparently clear that they are following a specific, set agenda directed by Putin himself.

aloyisious

Given the interest that Russia should/must have had in current events in Ukraine (ditto Western Govts) I'd be surprised if they ALL didn't have coverage of various kinds (Tech and People) targetting Ukraine giving feedback in various forms, just for "in case" policy. If evidence is found of a missile (eg: parts) hitting the plane is found, it might only end up proving a BUK hit the plane, NOT who had the missile on the ground. That's where possible satellite and radar coverage data recorded of the Ukraine general area be useful when it comes to launch of a missile and what happened to the launch vehicle afterwards, where it moved to. I cant imagine the "guilty" party leaving a piece of hard evidence around on the ground for journalists to see, photo and report-on, once it came out that it was a civil airliner (with hundreds of civilian passengers of Non-Ukrainian and Russian nationalities murdered) that was destroyed by the missile.

loughside

Yes thats right putin, try and hide your sins from the world -

10:55:
Parts of the plane wreckage have been changed since OSCE officials at the site last saw it, spokesman Michael Bociurkiw tells BBC World Update. Large pieces of the plane have been cut into, he says.

Tony EH

Piliger wrote: »

The truth is completely different. These groups generally do exactly what they are told and follow the line dictated by the people that pay their wages and supply the arms.
These thugs in Ukraine, backed by the Russian special forces show all the signs of following Putin's orders to the letter. It is transparently clear that they are following a specific, set agenda directed by Putin himself.

Are you really trying to say that Putin specifically ordered them to shoot down a civilian airliner?