Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

Elmer Blooker

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

so right now we are here:
USA/Ukraine - Russia/Rebels did it
Russia - Ukraine did it


so there is really nothing more to add until we hear the truth ......

its often too late before the truth comes out, Saddam Hussein had "links" with Al Qaeda and 9/11 (and don't forget the WMD) It was all lies of course.
The Gulf of Tonkin "incident" to get involved in Vietnam? etc etc.....

OldRio

Egginacup wrote: »

. Sanctions aren't working. Kiev's bombardment of Eastern Ukraine isn't working. The hysterical attempts to draw Putin into a war aren't working. But sure keep trying the same thing and expect a different outcome.

Pretending to be the voice of reason was unsuccessful. Muddying of the waters worked to a certain extent but was rather passive, But now your cards have been shown. (Membership ones perhaps) Overlords might not be to happy.

Puts kettle on and opens packet of biscuits

InTheTrees

Egginacup wrote: »

People are making this claim that the rebels brought down the plane to "stick it to the man" in Kiev.

NO they arent.

tigger123

Piliger wrote: »

Who ? The people of Europe ?

Nope, Putin and his organised crime syndicate government.

InTheTrees

Egginacup wrote: »

Sanctions aren't working.

Yes. They are. The russian economy is a shambles.

stevedublin

InTheTrees wrote: »

Yes. They are. The russian economy is a shambles.

If so, it is not because of sanctions.

Piliger

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

its often too late before the truth comes out, Saddam Hussein had "links" with Al Qaeda and 9/11 (and don't forget the WMD) It was all lies of course.

Well actually it was not all lies. No WMD found but he was definitely pouring money and offering facilities to AQ.

Piliger

tigger123 wrote: »

Nope, Putin and his organised crime syndicate government.

Czar Putin.

Piliger

stevedublin wrote: »

If so, it is not because of sanctions.

A lot of it is. I have been reading some FT and Blomberg financial analysis of how inward investment has plummeted and apart from oil, the economy is really falling back faster and faster.

stevedublin

Piliger wrote: »

he was definitely pouring money and offering facilities to AQ.

This is ridiculous, AQ was actively fighting Saddam Hussein before the US invasion of 2003

Egginacup

gandalf wrote: »

All the flight recorders will show is that a catastrophic event occurred to the airplane. They might get explosive residue off the body of the plane (providing it hasn't been "cleansed") or off some of the bodies although that may have degraded given the time it has taken to recover them and put them into refrigerated storage.

Won't the flight recorders show the conversation between the plane and the Kiev ATC?
Kiev are not releasing that though.

Wibbs

Egginacup wrote: »

Saudi Arabia is more socially responsible? That's a bit of a stretch now. I haven't heard of any woman in Russia not being allowed to drive a car and I certainly haven't heard of any woman getting decapitated in public or being beaten to death with stones for having an affair with another man.

So ignore the other points made about Putin's political career. Maybe answer them? Oh wait. Yep the same tactic used by Israeli shills.

Egginacup wrote: »

People are making this claim that the rebels brought down the plane to "stick it to the man" in Kiev. That is one of the most absurd things I've ever heard.

Ahhh another page from the Mossad handbook of online "debate". Not a single person has claimed that.

The rebels were already being quite successful in resisting Kiev's military operations.

GO the "rebels" eh?

Downing a cargo plane (and hitting a passenger airliner by accident....another fantasy-land scenario) would have no military advantage for them at all. What's the crew on a cargo plane....maybe half a dozen? Why waste an expensive and sophisticate missile to hit a cargo plane to give Kiev a bloody nose when a simple bomb in a bar would do the job and probably kill twice as many servicemen?

You really don't know how stuff works do you? And why is the downing of an airliner by accident so hard for you to fathom? The US did it, oh and wait... If hitting civilian aircraft is always a deliberate and planned action according to you then Russian forces deliberately brought down KAL007 back in the day, murdering hundreds. You can't have it both ways Ted. I know you'd like to but...

(BTW I consider all such downings as mistakes, including this one. They never once served anyone's purposes and always made things worse).

I don't know what people think they know about military tactics and the game of geopolitics and manipulation but you don't take military action without weighing up the advantages and possible ramifications.

Oh god. You have heard of the term the "fog of war"? War makes things go FUBAR all the time. Indeed FUBAR is a military term. Ask any military man from any conflict in any period of history going back to the bow and arrow, fcukups occur all the time. Much of the waging and winning of a war comes down to you making fewer fcukups than the other guy.

Egginacup

InTheTrees wrote: »

NO they arent.

Well if you scroll back you'll find that more than one poster stated that the rebels shot the plane down. They won't say it was on purpose but rather by accident. When asked why they think the rebels would target a transporter they are claiming "to get one over of Kiev".

Egginacup

InTheTrees wrote: »

Yes. They are. The russian economy is a shambles.

Really. Russia has just signed the biggest energy deal in its history with China. The token gesture sanctions imposed by the West are paltry. If Russia's economy is in a shambles as you state it's not because a few companies have been told they can't sell some of their trinkets to Russia.

Are you stating that these tuppence-halfpenny sanctions brought into play a couple of months ago have suddenly brought the Russian economy to its knees?
Only a fool would believe that.

roryc

Just stop replying to this clown. 50 posts, all on this thread, all with a massively pro Russia/Putin bias. Don't feed him.

loughside

the last thing these terrorists in the kremlin need is more military hardware to murder innocent people by, hopefully Hollande will see sense

France Prepared to Cancel Warship Sale to Russia

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-22/france-prepared-to-cancel-warship-sale-to-russia.html

Autonomous Cowherd

roryc wrote: »

Just stop replying to this clown. 50 posts, all on this thread, all with a massively pro Russia/Putin bias. Don't feed him.

Have you counted everyone elses posts?
I am sure if you do you will find others have posted more or similar amounts.

As I said before I have not decided what happened here yet, re Ukraine vs Russia responsibility. But there is only one person presenting an alternative possibility on the thread (besides me occasionally, and I'm too busy harvesting the onions to be properly engaged) but for his/her troubles, they get persistently called a shill, a Putinbot, a troll, whatever.

It seems to me that, in the absence of concrete evidence to prove either scenario, resorting to ad hominen attacks to prove a person with an alternative POV to be wrong is pretty lame.

That's it. Reload keyboard artillery...

DamagedTrax

roryc wrote: »

Just stop replying to this clown. 50 posts, all on this thread, all with a massively pro Russia/Putin bias. Don't feed him.

as opposed to the hundreds that are pro western?

does having a different view set to you automatically make him a troll? pathetic.

buried

Piliger wrote: »

Well actually it was not all lies. No WMD found but he was definitely pouring money and offering facilities to AQ.

That is Total bull$hit. The only Islamic militant group present in Iraq before 'The war on terror' was 'The Islamic Movement of Kurdistan' (IMK) whom Tehran had supported against Saddam Hussein during the Iran-Iraq war. This Kurdish Islamic Militant group remained at war with Saddam Hussein up until the year 2001 when a group within The IMK had broken away to form a separate militant faction called the 'Ansur ul Islam', this group led by a Mullah Krekar, a veteran of the Afghan Jihad against the USSR, sent representatives in early 2001 to Afghanistan to contact Bin Laden to gain and learn more advanced terrorist techniques to be used against Saddam's regime, which Bin Laden and al-Zawahiri duly taught them. Saddam never supported Al-Qaeda.

Piliger

loughside wrote: »

the last thing these terrorists in the kremlin need is more military hardware to murder innocent people by, hopefully Hollande will see sense

France Prepared to Cancel Warship Sale to Russia

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-22/france-prepared-to-cancel-warship-sale-to-russia.html

I believe he is only considering cancelling the second of two. Not the first which they say is definitely going ahead.

DamagedTrax

buried wrote: »

That is Total bull$hit. The only Islamic militant group present in Iraq before 'The war on terror' was 'The Islamic Movement of Kurdistan' (IMK) whom Tehran had supported against Saddam Hussein during the Iran-Iraq war. This Kurdish Islamic Militant group remained at war with Saddam Hussein up until the year 2001 when a group within The IMK had broken away to form a separate militant faction called the 'Ansur ul Islam', this group led by a Mullah Krekar, a veteran of the Afghan Jihad against the USSR, sent representatives in early 2001 to Afghanistan to contact Bin Laden to gain and learn more advanced terrorist techniques to be used against Saddam's regime, which Bin Laden and al-Zawahiri duly taught them. Saddam never supported Al-Qaeda.

well when George W can convince over half his country that Saddam was responsible for 9/11, its no wonder people worldwide still think he supported AQ despite being at war with them.

gandalf

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

Have you counted everyone elses posts?
I am sure if you do you will find others have posted more or similar amounts.

As I said before I have not decided what happened here yet, re Ukraine vs Russia responsibility. But there is only one person presenting an alternative possibility on the thread (besides me occasionally, and I'm too busy harvesting the onions to be properly engaged) but for his/her troubles, they get persistently called a shill, a Putinbot, a troll, whatever.

It seems to me that, in the absence of concrete evidence to prove either scenario, resorting to ad hominen attacks to prove a person with an alternative POV to be wrong is pretty lame.

That's it. Reload keyboard artillery...

It's quite easy. You click on the persons name. You click on "all posts by" and it becomes fairly obvious that they are a "one trick pony".

As I said earlier I didn't include you in on the Putinbot insult because it is very clear that you engage on boards clearly about other subjects and interests.

Bob24

Piliger wrote: »

I believe he is only considering cancelling the second of two. Not the first which they say is definitely going ahead.

Yes while not yet officially handed over to the Russians, the first one was completed last year, is already paid for, and is currently at sea with Russian soldiers on board for testing and training. I also think I read somewhere the contract penalties for not delivering it would be counted in billions of euros, which is more than pocket change for a mid sized developed country.

Not chance of cancelling it unless Russia enters and actual war against at French ally I guess ...

ScumLord

Just cut the Russian elite off from buying European supercars, China might be selling to the masses but Europe still leads the way in high end manufacturing.

kig

I just can't believe that our eu foreign ministers are so naive, to think that sanctions on a few politicians will ever seriously get Putin to stop his land grab. The clown in washington is just as bad. The only way to deal with bullies is to stand up to them.

loughside

roryc wrote: »

Just stop replying to this clown. 50 posts, all on this thread, all with a massively pro Russia/Putin bias. Don't feed him.

how can anybody give any support to this scum is beyond me - this is their latest act..

`Richard Galpin, BBC News, Kharkiv The head of the Dutch forensics team, police officer Jain Tuinder, says the train which arrived in Kharkiv today contains 200 bodies, significantly less than that claimed by the rebels.`


and `can`t count` isn`t much of an excuse.

Piliger

Bob24 wrote: »

Not chance of cancelling it unless Russia enters and actual war against at French ally I guess ...

Oh I don't know. The French have a long history of accommodating their invaders ..

Piliger

kig wrote: »

I just can't believe that our eu foreign ministers are so naive, to think that sanctions on a few politicians will ever seriously get Putin to stop his land grab. The clown in washington is just as bad. The only way to deal with bullies is to stand up to them.

Easy to say, but complex to do. What actions do you recommend ?

kig

The EU and USA should impose full sanctions on Russia, not this watered down version, and start supporting the Ukraine army with expertise men and weapons if necessary. This conflict wouldn't be happening if the EU and USA were so spineless when the first part of the Ukraine was stolen by Putin.

pablomakaveli

Egginacup wrote: »

People are making this claim that the rebels brought down the plane to "stick it to the man" in Kiev. That is one of the most absurd things I've ever heard. The rebels were already being quite successful in resisting Kiev's military operations. Downing a cargo plane (and hitting a passenger airliner by accident....another fantasy-land scenario) would have no military advantage for them at all. What's the crew on a cargo plane....maybe half a dozen? Why waste an expensive and sophisticate missile to hit a cargo plane to give Kiev a bloody nose when a simple bomb in a bar would do the job and probably kill twice as many servicemen?
I don't know what people think they know about military tactics and the game of geopolitics and manipulation but you don't take military action without weighing up the advantages and possible ramifications. And emotions such as "let's fcuk with Kiev" are never part of the process.
Sun Tzu and no shortage of other fairly handy military strategists would howl with laughter at the amateurish claims made by some on here.

You obviously don't understand the point of air defence. You protect the airspace you're operating under which involves engaging any hostile aircraft. That's why this plane was shot down.

They assumed it was hostile, failed to properly identify the aircraft and fired.