Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

DamagedTrax

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Egginacup

pablomakaveli wrote: »

NBC article ("we've no evidence who that Russians were responsible")


Who? Most posters, barring Russian apologists, that i've seen on here haven't been claiming Russia and Ukraine are at war rather the actual situation which is the Ukraine fighting Russia backed seperatists.

Pablo,

The fix is in.
Washington have decided that the risks in taking this airliner thing further could backfire.
They are dealing with a man (Putin) who is a hell of a lot more coolheaded, militarily savvy, intelligent and popular (at least among his own people) than they gamed for.
He is very difficult to checkmate even with propaganda and lies.

Obama was reluctant to look like a clown by following the same rubbish that Kerry spat out. But then again Kerry is getting paid handsomely to be a moron and then go away when he only has a few marbles left upstairs. Similar to Coco "The Clown" McCain" who sang "Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb bomb Iran"


So...again, not a shred of evidence that Russia was responsible or even Novorussian Fighters. Just schoolboy howlers of fake conversations, taken down offline once exposed, and fingerpointing on this forum by those whose best defence is "you question us!! You're a "putinbot" "

pablo128

Egginacup wrote: »

Pablo,

The fix is in.
Washington have decided that the risks in taking this airliner thing further could backfire.
They are dealing with a man (Putin) who is a hell of a lot more coolheaded, militarily savvy, intelligent and popular (at least among his own people) than they gamed for.
He is very difficult to checkmate even with propaganda and lies.

Has this been independently verified yet? :rolleyes:

Red Nissan

pablo128 wrote: »

Has this been independently verified yet? :rolleyes:

I've not heard of vodka bottles rolling down the gantry in Shannon.

listermint

pablo128 wrote: »

Has this been independently verified yet? :rolleyes:

Has the terminology 'verified' been verified yet. I'm of the opinion that the word is a ruse dreamt up by the western governments.

I mean it has ver meaning to complete and ified meaning to slander or destroy the underdog or whomever people looking for attention want to side with.


Get in there and up to bed the lot of yez

Egginacup

pablomakaveli wrote: »

<guardian article>


Who? Most posters, barring Russian apologists, that i've seen on here haven't been claiming Russia and Ukraine are at war rather the actual situation which is the Ukraine fighting Russia backed seperatists.

Sorry for the delay Pablo, but I had to go back through all the postings to 1083.

Wes posted this:

"I think the occupation of the Crimea, is a declaration of war........ Once your troops roll into foreign territory, then its war, no need to say that your engaged in war, when that happens."

My question prior to this was "Are Russia and The Ukraine at war?"

So in response to you saying that nobody has stated that a state of war exists between The Ukraine and Russia I would have you not only read this statement but perhaps also stop making statements without proof.

Wes told a lie, i.e there is NO war between Russia and The Ukraine.

You told another lie in stating that nobody said such a thing.

Egginacup

Now,

NBC has already admitted that they have no idea who committed this crime.
NBC also has John Kerry on their Sunday show stating he had proof of who committed this crime and not a single question was asked of him to reveal his knowledge.

That was last Sunday.

Since Saturday the Ukrainians have been exposed twice in lying to the world with regard to this entire episode.

The Ukrainians lied when they stated that BUK missile systems were being moved back to Russia. The staged footage was recorded in Ukrainian Territory.

They also lied when they denied having any military aircraft in the vicinity when they had one in the proximity of MH17.

The latter will be more difficult to wish away.


Now these lies are exposed. They are in the open and they are clear. The facts and evidence of these lies are plain.

But what we have here is blatant lies on one side, coupled with lack of proof, emotions, losing of tempers, name-calling, a history of fabrications ...rinse, repeat.
On the other side we have the mentality of "what are the facts?"

expectationlost

Egginacup wrote: »

The Ukrainians lied when they stated that BUK missile systems were being moved back to Russia. The staged footage was recorded in Ukrainian Territory.

really? any links for that

aloyisious

Egginacup wrote: »

The Ukrainians lied when they stated that BUK missile systems were being moved back to Russia. The staged footage was recorded in Ukrainian Territory.

Getting away from the actual downed-aircraft (which seem's indisputable as a fact) where else (given that this is tied in with an ongoing military fight between the Ukrainian Govt and State VERSUS Russian Separatists over disputed Ukrainian National territory) could the recorded footage you mention have been recorded?

If the Mods think my question is straying into the issue in the "Ukraine On The Brink Of Civil War" thread, please see them as NOT RELEVANT to this thread and DELETE them and this message.

gandalf

Egginacup wrote: »

They are dealing with a man (Putin) who is a hell of a lot more coolheaded, militarily savvy, intelligent and popular (at least among his own people) than they gamed for.
He is very difficult to checkmate even with propaganda and lies.

They are dealing with a man who is as grade A psychopath who uses a playbook developed over seventy years ago by another dictator. Even if they had proof of direct Russian involvement they wouldn't publish it, that would limit there options. Now they are going to target the cronies that keep the bare chested one in power.

comongethappy

gandalf wrote: »

They are dealing with a man who is as grade A psychopath who uses a playbook developed over seventy years ago by another dictator. Even if they had proof of direct Russian involvement they wouldn't publish it, that would limit there options. Now they are going to target the cronies that keep the bare chested one in power.

In fairness to the Putinista, he has a point.

One doesn't rise through the ranks to become the director of 'piano wire operations' in communist east Germany without cunning.

keith16

It's still hard to comprehend what happened to this flight.

I just can't even imagine the scale of the loss....so many families torn apart for no real reason. Sensless.

inforfun

keith16 wrote: »

It's still hard to comprehend what happened to this flight.

I just can't even imagine the scale of the loss....so many families torn apart for no real reason. Sensless.

Just be glad you cant read what i can. (Assuming you cant read Dutch)

It is terrible when a complete family of parents and kids die in accidents or whatever.
But i only read of families that have lost 1 of the parents, 1 or 2 of the kids.

And then all the other news and "proof" that has been coming out about this.
This day and age with such easy access to news and information via the internet, i just dont know who to believe anymore.
An cynical as i am, i always had trouble believing anyone.

I have followed this thread, read everything and i wish sometimes i was like a few people here on both side of the fence. Completely convinced that Country A is guilty or the opposite, Country B has pulled the trigger.

In stead i just got angry by the treatment the victims got, left for days in some train in the heat of the Ukraine.

Dutch politicians who are/were way to busy not to step on anyones toes.

They should have ****ed the ambassador of Russia and Ukraine out of the country. Tell Putin's daughter, who lives in The Netherlands, to GTFO.

The Russian company who set up shop in Amsterdam (for the same reason U2 is located inThe Netherlands, tax) who deals in arms, the BUK system being one of them, harass the **** out them. Make life difficult for anyone (read country)who is involved in this.
All very meaningless probably, but ffs, do something.

kig

I too feel for the people who are left behind, and how they are being failed by their countries, because they don't want to upset Putin. Chamberlain's deal with Hitler - 'Peace in our Time', springs to mind. It is absolutely disgusting that the bodies of innocents are treated the way they are. I am convinced that it could only have been the separatists who could have been responsible for this despicable act, but our own governments also have their blood on their hands, because they have refused to confront Putin and his cronies for years now - no wonder they have no respect for the dead (or the living).

roryc

Egginacup wrote: »

Since Saturday the Ukrainians have been exposed twice in lying to the world with regard to this entire episode.

Have they? Please link me to where they have been exposed, I haven't seen this on any of the major news sites.

Egginacup wrote: »

The Ukrainians lied when they stated that BUK missile systems were being moved back to Russia. The staged footage was recorded in Ukrainian Territory.

Again, please link to a reputable site where this has been proven to be staged footage.

Egginacup wrote: »

Now these lies are exposed. They are in the open and they are clear. The facts and evidence of these lies are plain.

Exposed by who? When? You are the only person I have seen make this claim. An anonymous poster with an obvious pro Russian/Putin bias that denies one side of the argument due to not having facts, but then appears to push the agenda on the other side without any evidence. We clearly have a lack of evidence to date, but the way Russia has acted so far stinks of guilt.

Egginacup wrote: »

They also lied when they denied having any military aircraft in the vicinity when they had one in the proximity of MH17.

Again, please link to where this has they have been proven to have had a plane in the proximity.

If you want to avoid being called a troll and a Putinbot then you'll need to back up your own arguments with 'verified facts' - the same things that you have asked for from the other side of the debate.

Egginacup wrote: »

But what we have here is blatant lies on one side, coupled with lack of proof, emotions, losing of tempers, name-calling, a history of fabrications ...rinse, repeat.

100% agree. Unfortunately both myself and the vast majority of posters on this forum will disagree on which side this statement refers to...

pablomakaveli

Egginacup wrote: »

Sorry for the delay Pablo, but I had to go back through all the postings to 1083.

Wes posted this:

"I think the occupation of the Crimea, is a declaration of war........ Once your troops roll into foreign territory, then its war, no need to say that your engaged in war, when that happens."

My question prior to this was "Are Russia and The Ukraine at war?"

So in response to you saying that nobody has stated that a state of war exists between The Ukraine and Russia I would have you not only read this statement but perhaps also stop making statements without proof.

Wes told a lie, i.e there is NO war between Russia and The Ukraine.

You told another lie in stating that nobody said such a thing.

So one poster then? Who states in his opinion Russia and Ukraine are at war. Not that they actually are at war.

Ya somehow that doesn't really change what i said. The vast majority of posters on this thread know the reality of the situation.

gandalf

I had to laugh at Putins little speech yesterday where he demanded that other nations stay out of the affairs of Russia while he is actively undermining via proxy war and economic war a sovereign neighbour nation.

Live by the sword, die by the sword Vlad!

comongethappy

gandalf wrote: »

Live by the sword, die by the sword Vlad!

"Live by the piano-wire, bullet, car bomb, polonium..... die by the .... etc"

pablomakaveli

More information released by US intelligence agencies.

I've no doubt the mounting evidence will still be explained away by the Russia fans on here.

gandalf

pablomakaveli wrote: »

More information released by US intelligence agencies.

I've no doubt the mounting evidence will still be explained away by the Russia fans on here.

Unless its on RT they won't believe it

Ash.J.Williams

pablomakaveli wrote: »

More information released by US intelligence agencies.

I've no doubt the mounting evidence will still be explained away by the Russia fans on here.

I don't think anyone is stupid enough to deny proper evidence....

gandalf

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

I don't think anyone is stupid enough to deny proper evidence....

I wouldn't say that certain people are stupid, I'd say they are compelled to stay "on message"

kig

I for one have no doubt that the evidence will be there. What won't be discovered though is that it was probably meddling by the west (CIA probably), who started this whole thing in Ukraine. Getting rid of Putin's puppet without thinking about the consequences, same as they were almost certainly involved in other popular revolutions, which have caused more problems than solutions.

roryc

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

I don't think anyone is stupid enough to deny proper evidence....

Read back over this thread. There are two posters in particular that would probably continue to support Putin even if he was on film launching the rocket himself.

mickmackey1

roryc wrote: »

Read back over this thread. There are two posters in particular that would probably continue to support Putin even if he was on film launching the rocket himself.

You're the bloke who tried to ban somebody because they had a different opinion from you.

Therefore your opinions are completely irrelevant.

smurfjed

Nobody has released anything that would definitively show how the airliner was downed.

Are you willing to accept from the photographs that are online, that the aircraft was destroyed by an external force?

Taken from the Washington Post....

“the most plausible explanation to me is [it was] a mistake.”

roryc

mickmackey1 wrote: »

You're the bloke who tried to ban somebody because they had a different opinion from you.

Therefore your opinions are completely irrelevant.

I didn't try to ban anyone, I'm not a mod? I asked people to ignore a poster who is clearly trying to stir sh*t. More than happy to consider the flip side of the debate if there is any evidence to back up bullsh*t claims like the videos were 'clearly staged'. I notice that specific poster hasn't appeared today, although its lunchtime in Moscow so he might be along soon.

Also as for you saying my opinions are irrelevant - you've jumped on the Putin bandwagon despite articles like this categorically stating what most of the world have already realised. I also see you post on the Paranormal Forum. Probably best to take your opinions over to CT.

Adamantium

I want NATO to build an ugly rusty shed .000005mm away from the Russian border.

Better yet, surround Russia in gay pride rainbow flags.

Thoie

http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/two-government-jets-shot-down-in-eastern-ukraine-637187.html

Two Ukrainian military fighter jets have been shot down in the east {of the Ukraine}, according to the country’s Defence Ministry.

Someone's pretty determined they don't want planes flying overhead.

Mardy Bum

Thoie wrote: »

http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/two-government-jets-shot-down-in-eastern-ukraine-637187.html



Someone's pretty determined they don't want planes flying overhead.

*Awaits conspiracy theorists' delusional ramblings about "set ups".