Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

old_aussie

Pro-Russian separatist commander acknowledges fighters had Buk missile launcher

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-24/mh17-ukraine-rebel-commander-acknowledges-fighters-had-buk/5619520

Russia(Putin) has denied that the rebels had this type of weapon.

Separatist commander say they had the weapon.

Putin's looking like he's going to have to come clean.

comongethappy

old_aussie wrote: »

Pro-Russian separatist commander acknowledges fighters had Buk missile launcher

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-24/mh17-ukraine-rebel-commander-acknowledges-fighters-had-buk/5619520

Russia(Putin) has denied that the rebels had this type of weapon.

Separatist commander say they had the weapon.

Putin's looking like he's going to have to come clean.

Well, I think everyone knew that they had captured at least one BUK from the Ukrainian army in the last month.

There is intrigue over whether any further systems or even the missiles for same were brought over the border.

gandalf

comongethappy wrote: »

Well, I think everyone knew that they had captured at least one BUK from the Ukrainian army in the last month.

There is intrigue over whether any further systems or even the missiles for same were brought over the border.

Apparently they captured two from Ukrainian forces but both were nonoperational according to the so called Rebel commander that gave the interview. He implied that the one the Russians supplied that then got ferreted out of the Ukraine after the deed last week was fully operational.

comongethappy

gandalf wrote: »

Apparently they captured two from Ukrainian forces but both were nonoperational according to the so called Rebel commander that gave the interview. He implied that the one the Russians supplied that then got ferreted out of the Ukraine after the deed last week was fully operational.

I assume that was the one Channel 4 had footage of heading east, missing 2 of its 4 missiles?

DamagedTrax

interesting theory published on business insider.

Iranian defense expert Babak Taghvaee believes the mistake was caused by the fact the Malaysian Boeing 777 was escorted over eastern Ukraine. Taghvaee is always very well informed and an extremely reliable source.

http://www.businessinsider.com/source-malaysia-flight-mh17-was-being-escorted-by-ukrainian-su-27-fighter-jets-2014-7

Autonomous Cowherd

DamagedTrax wrote: »

interesting theory published on business insider.



http://www.businessinsider.com/source-malaysia-flight-mh17-was-being-escorted-by-ukrainian-su-27-fighter-jets-2014-7

Interesting. Sounds plausible. Thanks for the link.

comongethappy

DamagedTrax wrote: »

interesting theory published on business insider.



http://www.businessinsider.com/source-malaysia-flight-mh17-was-being-escorted-by-ukrainian-su-27-fighter-jets-2014-7

The cockpit voice recorder will tell all.

The article still points the finger of blame at the rebels mind.

smurfjed

The cockpit voice recorder will tell all.

Do you think that it will reveal the presence of fighters?

DamagedTrax

comongethappy wrote: »

The article still points the finger of blame at the rebels mind.

im not sure i was trying to say it doesnt?

comongethappy

smurfjed wrote: »

Do you think that it will reveal the presence of fighters?

If its escorting MH17, you would think either pilot might let MH17 know.

Also, as limited as their radar was, I'm pretty sure the Malaysian plane would have picked up the 2 Ukrainian planes......

..... That's of course if any of it is true..... Some guys in Tehrans thoughts on the matter is hardly a certainty.

who_me

It's a bit nuts that two aircraft have been shot down since MH-17. Whether innocent or guilty of that incident, you'd think the Eastern rebels wouldn't want to be drawing attention to their ability & willingness to shoot aircraft down at the moment.

comongethappy

who_me wrote: »

It's a bit nuts that two aircraft have been shot down since MH-17. Whether innocent or guilty of that incident, you'd think the Eastern rebels wouldn't want to be drawing attention to their ability & willingness to shoot aircraft down at the moment.

You would also imagine Ukraine has few enough planes left at this point..... A large number were seized by Russia when they conquered Crimea.

Piliger

who_me wrote: »

It's a bit nuts that two aircraft have been shot down since MH-17. Whether innocent or guilty of that incident, you'd think the Eastern rebels wouldn't want to be drawing attention to their ability & willingness to shoot aircraft down at the moment.

I suggest that they realise we know full well it was the Putin mercenaries and special forces that did the slaughter.

smurfjed

If its escorting MH17, you would think either pilot might let MH17 know.

Nope, why should they?

Also, as limited as their radar was, I'm pretty sure the Malaysian plane would have picked up the 2 Ukrainian planes......

Nope, thats not how aircraft radar works, they do not see other aircraft.

mickmackey1

comongethappy wrote: »

A large number were given back to Russia when they were reunited with Crimea.

fyp.

sparksfly

Piliger wrote: »

I suggest that they realise we know full well it was the Putin mercenaries and special forces that did the slaughter.

But we dont and no matter how many times this tripe is repeated by Obama worshippers, it does not make it true.

Piliger

comongethappy wrote: »

If its escorting MH17, you would think either pilot might let MH17 know.

It wasn't escorting anything. It would make absolutely no sense to be escorting unless there were enemy fighters likely to shoot it down which there weren't. Escorting would achieve nothing in the case of G2A missiles.

Also, as limited as their radar was, I'm pretty sure the Malaysian plane would have picked up the 2 Ukrainian planes......

They definitely would.

That's of course if any of it is true..... Some guys in Tehrans thoughts on the matter is hardly a certainty.

LOL ... it's as good as one of Putin's puppies. There is nothing they want more than to stick it to Ukraine/EU/USA.

Muahahaha

Egginacup wrote: »

Then why are you saying "once we're sure it was a BUK", if you already know it was a BUK?

I'm saying I'm waiting on ballistics to confirm that 100% from the shrapnel evidence on the plane. But for now everything points towards it, the ballistics tests will confirm it 100%.

Egginacup wrote: »

298 human beings were killed. I stopped reading your yawn-producing bleat after "200 EU citizens".

As mentioned you're selectively quoting me now which you've already been caught out at when selectively quoting that blogger you spent half an hour last night bigging up. I said that if the EU found out that the Kiev govt was responsible for murdering 200 EU citizens then there isn't a chance in hell the EU will be letting Ukraine join for a long time yet. It was mentioned in the context of joining the EU which is why EU citizens were relevant, not for the twisted idea that you tried to make it out to be by only quoting half of the sentence.

But I digress. Instead of engaging my post you instead chose to misrepresent it. This is classic shill behavior.

Why not address any of the points I made about Putin and his own satellite images ? Are you running scared now or something, it certainly seems so because you misrepresented my post and then ignored all the points within.

Tell me this - why hasn't Putin released his satellite footage ? Surely you're not naive enough to claim that he hasn't got his satellites trained onto an area where there is ongoing war ? I presume not anyway because that would be just stupid.

So if we allow for two possibilities 1) Russian Rebels did it and 2) Ukrainian forces did it and Putin is claiming that it was 2) and Putin undoubtedly has satellites in the sky photographing away just like the US do. So where's his evidence, I'm not seeing it ? You're the one going around trying to persistently discredit US evidence but Putin has none of his own. Why can't he show us satellite images of the Ukrainian BUK in operation and transport like the other side have ? Surely if he had these images he would be releasing them to the whole wide world and shouting about it from the rooftops in glee. It would strike a fatal blow to his enemies in Kiev and in the West at large. Vlads status as a national hero would be cemented forever if he left egg all over the face (!) of the West. But he isn't doing this and I am asking you why ?

smurfjed wrote: »

So you are basically telling us what an excellent and trustworthy Robert Perry is, but at the same time you are personally censoring his articles as you see fit!

You caught Egginacup with his pants down, twice now I think it is, fair play:)

roryc wrote: »

This is the crux of the problem with this poster. If a video was released showing footage of Russians shooting down the plane, he would say its faked. If Putin came out and outright admitted his part in the debacle he would say its his doppelganger and the CIA have got Putin... He picked his side from the beginning and is refusing to consider the other possibilities, despite everything pointing to the the agreed scenario being the correct one. He's asking for a level of proof that probably consists of him taking Putins confession himself. The question you should be asking yourself is why have the Russians/Putin not made a big issue of refuting the accusations with proof of their own?

Nobody is against the idea that there could be something else behind this (unlikely as that is), but there is absolutely no benefit to denying what is staring you in the face. If it makes you feel better to think that 9/11 was an inside job, the Queens a lizard and the Moon Landings were faked go right ahead. Either way, staying up all night to write huge posts defending an untenable position will achieve nothing. Stick to the abstract bloggers you keep quoting.

Basically it is the problem with this poster, he would tell you black is white if he thought he'd get away with it. Good to see the majority pull him up on it though. Like others I'm open to all possibilities but there hasn't be anything credible coming out from the Russian side. Releasing their satellite images would prove they didn't do it, they're not doing that and Putins behaviour since all this began does not tally well with the behaviour you would expect from an innocent man who has just been accused of facilitating mass murder.

smurfjed

Quote:
Also, as limited as their radar was, I'm pretty sure the Malaysian plane would have picked up the 2 Ukrainian planes......

They definitely would.

Piliger.... sorry but you are wrong. Aircraft radars DO NOT detect OTHER aircraft ! Please do not confuse a weather radar system with TCAS.

Peist2007

old_aussie wrote: »

Pro-Russian separatist commander acknowledges fighters had Buk missile launcher

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-24/mh17-ukraine-rebel-commander-acknowledges-fighters-had-buk/5619520

Russia(Putin) has denied that the rebels had this type of weapon.

Separatist commander say they had the weapon.

Putin's looking like he's going to have to come clean.

Ok i am really being careful not to sound like i am in a Moscow factory typing this but having a weapon does not necessarily mean anything. The Ukrainians had the same equipment. Why the trust in Kiev?

comongethappy

smurfjed wrote: »

Piliger.... sorry but you are wrong. Aircraft radars DO NOT detect OTHER aircraft ! Please do not confuse a weather radar system with TCAS.

Forgive my ignorance.... How do they avoid collision.... (Aside from ATC & the human eyeball)?

youtube!

Something really doesn't make sense about this whole scenario...

comongethappy

Peist2007 wrote: »

Ok i am really being careful not to sound like i am in a Moscow factory typing this but having a weapon does not necessarily mean anything. The Ukrainians had the same equipment. Why the trust in Kiev?

The whole area for miles around is rebel territory & rebels alone.

Its 99.99% likely rebel fired....

Besides.... If a rebel leader says something, we kinda have to take it on face value until evidence says otherwise.

InTheTrees

comongethappy wrote: »

Forgive my ignorance.... How do they avoid collision.... (Aside from ATC & the human eyeball)?

TCAS works using the other aircrafts transponder. Thats the electronic ID that the aircraft sends out.

Other than that its up to ATC and eyeballs.

smurfjed

Comongethappy..... sometimes they don't :(:(

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charkhi_Dadri_mid-air_collision

Both of these aircraft had RADAR, but they didn't see each other. There is an electronic aircraft system called TCAS that is now mandatory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision_avoidance_system

The pertinent point about TCAS is

It monitors the airspace around an aircraft for other aircraft equipped with a corresponding active transponder, independent of air traffic control, and warns pilots of the presence of other transponder-equipped aircraft which may present a threat of mid-air collision

Therefore if a military aircraft wants to sneak up bedside you, all that he has to do is turn off his transponder.

Peist2007

comongethappy wrote: »

The whole area for miles around is rebel territory & rebels alone.

Its 99.99% likely rebel fired....

Besides.... If a rebel leader says something, we kinda have to take it on face value until evidence says otherwise.

But all of your information is based on what is coming from Kiev and from the US. I dont trust them any more than i would trust the Russians. I very much doubt there is only one in 10,000 chance that it is not the Russian separatists.

I note how you raise the issue of evidence. I would agree. Let's see some

Piliger

smurfjed wrote: »

Piliger.... sorry but you are wrong. Aircraft radars DO NOT detect OTHER aircraft ! Please do not confuse a weather radar system with TCAS.

Weather radar will show other aircraft if they are as close as this one is being suggested to be .. ie escorting. TCAS would also do so.

Piliger

Peist2007 wrote: »

But all of your information is based on what is coming from Kiev and from the US. I dont trust them any more than i would trust the Russians. I very much doubt there is only one in 10,000 chance that it is not the Russian separatists.

I note how you raise the issue of evidence. I would agree. Let's see some

You trusting is your business and your right. But the vast and overwhelming population does actually trust the Ukrainians and the EU and US, and most especially when it is supported by all of the brain dead circumstantial evidence. And that is what really matters.

smurfjed

Weather radar will show other aircraft if they are as close as this one is being suggested to be .. ie escorting.

Can you kindly give me one technical reference to back up that claim? You might also have a look at these:

http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/media_gallery/files/safety_library_items/AirbusSafetyLib_-FLT_OPS-ADV_WX-SEQ07.pdf
http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Weather_Radar:_Storm_Avoidance

As for your statement on TCAS, well that system needs BOTH aircraft to be fitted with an operating TCAS.

comongethappy

Peist2007 wrote: »

But all of your information is based on what is coming from Kiev and from the US. I dont trust them any more than i would trust the Russians.

No.... All of my information is coming from the rebels themselves.... They have been pretty forthcoming.