Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

Peist2007

Piliger wrote: »

You trusting is your business and your right. But the vast and overwhelming population does actually trust the Ukrainians and the EU and US, and most especially when it is supported by all of the brain dead circumstantial evidence. And that is what really matters.

If the vast majority oof people still trust the Americans then we deserve everything we get. Hilarious denialism.

Peist2007

comongethappy wrote: »

No.... All of my information is coming from the rebels themselves.... They have been pretty forthcoming.

Are you referring to twitter?

comongethappy

Peist2007 wrote: »

Are you referring to twitter?

That, the VK/Facebook like thing & some press stuff.

Peist2007

comongethappy wrote: »

That, the VK/Facebook like thing & some press stuff.

What press stuff?

comongethappy

Peist2007 wrote: »

What press stuff?

The "leaders" of the various groups have done 'sit-downs' with some journalists.... Sometimes for TV, mostly print.

They hide little, they've always been open about the kit they've acquired from abandoned or defected Ukrainian army units.

Peist2007

comongethappy wrote: »

The "leaders" of the various groups have done 'sit-downs' with some journalists.... Sometimes for TV, mostly print.

They hide little, they've always been open about the kit they've acquired from abandoned. Or defected Ukrainian army units.

So they have been forthcoming about the weapons they have. How is that evidence that they shot the Malaysian plane down?

Now i can understand people thinking it was likely the separatists. It is not a difficult link to make. But the lack of evidence from the Ukrainians and Americans is quite pertinent here. If they had it they would have crucified Putin with it by now. That is clear as day. That they havent is reason for suspicion.

I find the certainty from some people on this thread sitting in their houses in Ireland to be extremely stupid. It is also extremely stupid to believe any nation that lies as much as the Americans do to further their own ends.

This whole matter reeks of a set-up.

smurfjed

Peist2007, considering that they are still in the process of collecting bodies and trying to ascertain what actually happened. Is there anything to be gained by accusing one side or the other.

Manic Moran

Peist2007 wrote: »

Ok i am really being careful not to sound like i am in a Moscow factory typing this but having a weapon does not necessarily mean anything. The Ukrainians had the same equipment. Why the trust in Kiev?

The Ukrainians wouldn't be going to be randomly shooting at airplanes. For starters, the rebels don't have an air force, the only people who have been getting shot down have been Ukrainians, because they're the only people flying missions over the area. The Ukrainians certainly won't want to hit a Russian airplane, as if they want to give the Russians any more reason to interfere. And, of course, the aircraft was going -from- Ukraine -to- rebel territory, so pretty unlikely to be enemy.

Peist2007

smurfjed wrote: »

Peist2007, considering that they are still in the process of collecting bodies and trying to ascertain what actually happened. Is there anything to be gained by accusing one side or the other.

No and that is my whole point. The news was breaking last week and we were told in no uncertain terms that it was shot down by the rebel spearatists. No other possibilities given. No analysis of who was to blame etc. Just blanket statements. I noticed how blatant it was straight away. And that raised my suspicions.

A previous poster mentioned the "fool me once" phrase. That applies to us. We still going to blindly believe what America says in light of Iraq, Afghanistan, Bradley Manning, Edward Snowden, the NSA spying on their own allies etc etc and the lengthy list goes back 70 years or so. We really going to believe them without any question?

Peist2007

Manic Moran wrote: »

The Ukrainians wouldn't be going to be randomly shooting at airplanes. For starters, the rebels don't have an air force, the only people who have been getting shot down have been Ukrainians, because they're the only people flying missions over the area. The Ukrainians certainly won't want to hit a Russian airplane, as if they want to give the Russians any more reason to interfere. And, of course, the aircraft was going -from- Ukraine -to- rebel territory, so pretty unlikely to be enemy.

Why do you think the Ukrainians would be shooting randomly? They had a clear motive in shooting down the plane. Use the americans and the western media to blame it on the Russians. Especially as Russian separatists shot down a plane earlier. It's very obvious.

I think the least likely scenario here is that the plane was shot down randomly or by mistake by anybody.

Muahahaha

Peist2007 wrote: »

This whole matter reeks of a set-up.

You know I'm not closed to that idea myself but the problem is if it were the case then we'd be seeing some pretty strong evidence coming from the Russian side. Their silence is deafening on this one so far I'm afraid. Perhaps the next week might turn up something new and I'll be surprised and reassess but so far nothing concrete has been forthcoming. I want to see the Russian satellite images, these images should prove the innocence of the Russian separatists so where are they ?

My mind isn't made up on this one but I think any neutral observer of this tragedy from the beginning would say that it's not looking good for those Russian separatists to not have carried this out.

Peist2007

Muahahaha wrote: »

You know I'm not closed to that idea myself but the problem is if it were the case then we'd be seeing some pretty strong evidence coming from the Russian side. Their silence is deafening on this one so far I'm afraid. Perhaps the next week might turn up something new and I'll be surprised and reassess but so far nothing concrete has been forthcoming. I want to see the Russian satellite images, these images should prove the innocence of the Russian separatists so where are they ?

My mind isn't made up on this one but I think any neutral observer of this tragedy from the beginning would say that it's not looking good for those Russian separatists to not have carried this out.

I agree with your point. I dont agree that the Russians would necessarily have strong evidence though. Not if it was well planned to look like the Russians did it. By that rationale, if the Russians did do it then you'd expect the Americans/Ukrainians would have strong evidence wouldnt you? Much stronger than a Washington Post article showing a Russian military training base in the area. Only one party in this matter has said they have strong evidence. Let's see it.

Have the Ukrainians produced evidence showing their own troop and battery movements that day?

Autonomous Cowherd

Again ploughing my furrow of stubbornly sitting on the fence on this one (look, mixed metaphors )...here is an article some might find mildly interesting...

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/07/23/ukraine-mh-17-and-the-charge-of-the-atlanticist-brigade/

So, in an ordinary investigation, plenty of he said/she said, fog o’ war, bluster, obfuscation and the prospect that a mutually acceptable story will be sorted out months if not years down the road.

As to the “restricting access to crash site gate” the subject of much indignant huffing and a newly-minted UNSC resolution (which Russia supported) this appears to be a canard.

Most Western journalists in the field have reported that they easily passed through rebel checkpoints and wandered unrestricted through the crash site (one journo was castigated for actually rifling through a victim’s luggage to illustrate his video report), and noted that, if anybody was delaying the arrival of the international investigatory team, it was the Ukrainian government (which held 100+ international experts in Kyiv until “security issues” could be sorted out). Further cognitive dissonance was assured when Kyiv forces launched several attacks in Donetsk, not exactly conducive to the ceasefire intended to facilitate the investigation, and also endangering the passage of the “corpse train” that everybody was, at least a couple days ago, so worked up about.

To date, the US strategy seems to be to crank up the indignation machine by whatever means come to hand, in this case excoriating Russia for obstructions of the investigation that aren’t occurring, in order to justify immediate further sanctions that would short circuit Russia’s desire for a conventional, legalistic, and protracted investigation.

As of this writing, the international experts have arrived at the crash site, the rebels, after some unedifying back and forth, have coughed up the black boxes, and there seems to be little that the West can currently complain about.

Counterpunch while undeniably left wing is not some whacky conspiracy theorist site. And why are non-main stream journalists dismissed as ''bloggers'' as has been done on here, while some one can trustingly be called a journalist if firmly nestled under Murdoch's wing? A so-called ''blogger'' might be telling more truth than an official journalist.

who_me

Manic Moran wrote: »

The Ukrainians wouldn't be going to be randomly shooting at airplanes. For starters, the rebels don't have an air force, the only people who have been getting shot down have been Ukrainians, because they're the only people flying missions over the area. The Ukrainians certainly won't want to hit a Russian airplane, as if they want to give the Russians any more reason to interfere. And, of course, the aircraft was going -from- Ukraine -to- rebel territory, so pretty unlikely to be enemy.

I don't know. Given a Russian Mig-29 supposedly shot down a Ukrainian Su-25 earlier this month, I doubt if there would be much reluctance to shooting down Russian aircraft inside Ukraine or near the border. (Not that I think this was a Ukrainian army action, btw).

Muahahaha

Peist2007 wrote: »

I agree with your point. I dont agree that the Russians would necessarily have strong evidence though. Not if it was well planned to look like the Russians did it. By that rationale, if the Russians did do it then you'd expect the Americans/Ukrainians would have strong evidence wouldnt you? Much stronger than a Washington Post article showing a Russian military training base in the area. Only one party in this matter has said they have strong evidence. Let's see it.

Have the Ukrainians produced evidence showing their own troop and battery movements that day?

Well I'm no expert on Russian or Ukrainian military capabilities but for my money Russia has satellites in the sky and while there is a war going on near their borders it is inconceivable that at least one if not several satellites are not trained on the area. Again I'm not familiar with how often these satellites take a photo or if they can stream live video or how it works. But even if all they do is take a photo every 15 minutes then the footage of the Russian satellites is what is most likely to answer the question of who done it.

I don't know if the Ukrainians have sub orbital satellites in use or if they outsource that capability to the EU or US. I'd be interested to find out because if they do have their own then that footage too is crucial and should be shown.

gandalf

who_me wrote: »

I don't know. Given a Russian Mig-29 supposedly shot down a Ukrainian Su-25 earlier this month, I doubt if there would be much reluctance to shooting down Russian aircraft inside Ukraine or near the border. (Not that I think this was a Ukrainian army action, btw).

You are kidding. An event like that would trigger a full invasion of eastern Ukraine by Russia. I think you will find the Ukrainians are showing incredible restraint where Russia and its forces are concern on purpose.

smurfjed

From what i have read, the US has stated that they know how it was shot down, from where it was shot down, but they have no idea who pulled the trigger (or hit the button) and due to the fact that military elements from both sides might actually be wearing the same uniform, it is quite likely that they will never know who did it.

As for the why, unfortunately they have also stated that it might be a case of human error

smurfjed

What scares me immensely is that there are NO systems for airliners to guarantee protection from this sort of missile attack.

gandalf

smurfjed wrote: »

What scares me immensely is that there are NO systems for airliners to guarantee protection from this sort of missile attack.

Of course there isn't these weapons are designed to take down military aircraft. A civilian airliner doesn't stand a chance against weapons like this.

Egginacup

smurfjed wrote: »

You are my nightmare witness as you are not willing to even consider other views that may be contrary to your own.

Last time that i checked, Oscar Wilde didn't report on current events!

I am willing to consider all views. What I'm not willing to accept is you leading me with imperative interrogatives such as:

"So you are not willing to accept that the plane was shot down?"

It's the oldest trick in the book and I'm not falling for it.

mad muffin

gandalf wrote: »

Of course there isn't these weapons are designed to take down military aircraft. A civilian airliner doesn't stand a chance against weapons like this.

El Al Airlines planes have anti missile defences.

Piliger

smurfjed wrote: »

What scares me immensely is that there are NO systems for airliners to guarantee protection from this sort of missile attack.

Why on earth would it scare you immensely ?? Do you plan on flying through a war zone any time soon ?

Egginacup

roryc wrote: »

This is the crux of the problem with this poster. If a video was released showing footage of Russians shooting down the plane, he would say its faked. If Putin came out and outright admitted his part in the debacle he would say its his doppelganger and the CIA have got Putin... He picked his side from the beginning and is refusing to consider the other possibilities, despite everything pointing to the the agreed scenario being the correct one. He's asking for a level of proof that probably consists of him taking Putins confession himself. The question you should be asking yourself is why have the Russians/Putin not made a big issue of refuting the accusations with proof of their own?

Nobody is against the idea that there could be something else behind this (unlikely as that is), but there is absolutely no benefit to denying what is staring you in the face. If it makes you feel better to think that 9/11 was an inside job, the Queens a lizard and the Moon Landings were faked go right ahead. Either way, staying up all night to write huge posts defending an untenable position will achieve nothing. Stick to the abstract bloggers you keep quoting.

I have NOT picked a side. You are in fact the one who has picked a side and is refusing to consider all the possibilities.
You are saying the rebels did it as if you were there and witnessed it. You say it's the only possibility but have no proof. I, unlike you am the one considering ALL possibilities.

And true to form you throw in the predictable tinfoil insults again because you can't back up your flimsy case with evidence so what better way to help your cause than by insulting those who are sceptical.

Egginacup

comongethappy wrote: »

If its escorting MH17, you would think either pilot might let MH17 know.

Also, as limited as their radar was, I'm pretty sure the Malaysian plane would have picked up the 2 Ukrainian planes......

..... That's of course if any of it is true..... Some guys in Tehrans thoughts on the matter is hardly a certainty.

But some guy's on "boards.ie" thoughts on the matter IS a certainty, i.e. that the rebels did it?

comongethappy

Egginacup wrote: »

But some guy's on "boards.ie" thoughts on the matter IS a certainty, i.e. that the rebels did it?

Indeed.... Where is my article?

Egginacup

Muahahaha wrote: »

I'm saying I'm waiting on ballistics to confirm that 100% from the shrapnel evidence on the plane. But for now everything points towards it, the ballistics tests will confirm it 100%.



As mentioned you're selectively quoting me now which you've already been caught out at when selectively quoting that blogger you spent half an hour last night bigging up. I said that if the EU found out that the Kiev govt was responsible for murdering 200 EU citizens then there isn't a chance in hell the EU will be letting Ukraine join for a long time yet. It was mentioned in the context of joining the EU which is why EU citizens were relevant, not for the twisted idea that you tried to make it out to be by only quoting half of the sentence.

But I digress. Instead of engaging my post you instead chose to misrepresent it. This is classic shill behavior.

Why not address any of the points I made about Putin and his own satellite images ? Are you running scared now or something, it certainly seems so because you misrepresented my post and then ignored all the points within.

Tell me this - why hasn't Putin released his satellite footage ? Surely you're not naive enough to claim that he hasn't got his satellites trained onto an area where there is ongoing war ? I presume not anyway because that would be just stupid.

So if we allow for two possibilities 1) Russian Rebels did it and 2) Ukrainian forces did it and Putin is claiming that it was 2) and Putin undoubtedly has satellites in the sky photographing away just like the US do. So where's his evidence, I'm not seeing it ? You're the one going around trying to persistently discredit US evidence but Putin has none of his own. Why can't he show us satellite images of the Ukrainian BUK in operation and transport like the other side have ? Surely if he had these images he would be releasing them to the whole wide world and shouting about it from the rooftops in glee. It would strike a fatal blow to his enemies in Kiev and in the West at large. Vlads status as a national hero would be cemented forever if he left egg all over the face (!) of the West. But he isn't doing this and I am asking you why ?



You caught Egginacup with his pants down, twice now I think it is, fair play:)



Basically it is the problem with this poster, he would tell you black is white if he thought he'd get away with it. Good to see the majority pull him up on it though. Like others I'm open to all possibilities but there hasn't be anything credible coming out from the Russian side. Releasing their satellite images would prove they didn't do it, they're not doing that and Putins behaviour since all this began does not tally well with the behaviour you would expect from an innocent man who has just been accused of facilitating mass murder.

Well let's just address your question as to why Putin hasn't released his satellite photos/data?

That's a classic example of accusing someone of something and demanding that they prove their innocence. I imagine you might accuse Putin of the same thing you are accusing me of and that being that if evidence is released to refute your initial knee-jerk assumption you'll accuse it of being fake. Maybe Putin's satellite data implicates him. Maybe it exonerates him. Maybe it implicates the rebels or Kiev. These are all possibilities. Why he hasn't released the data, I don't know. And neither do you. You are only assuming that he has something to hide. And that is a possibility. But if you are going to take that approach then have the guts to be objective and state that Kiev and the US for that matter must also have something to hide by not releasing satellite data or control tower communications.

You see you also cannot have it both ways.

All the parties involved must know who is responsible. It's just a case now of them determining if it's in their best interests to let it be known.

Egginacup

Manic Moran wrote: »

The Ukrainians wouldn't be going to be randomly shooting at airplanes. For starters, the rebels don't have an air force, the only people who have been getting shot down have been Ukrainians, because they're the only people flying missions over the area. The Ukrainians certainly won't want to hit a Russian airplane, as if they want to give the Russians any more reason to interfere. And, of course, the aircraft was going -from- Ukraine -to- rebel territory, so pretty unlikely to be enemy.

MM, Ukraine would love to shoot down a Russian plane. They take their orders from Washington, remember and it is NATO's desire for Russia to invade Ukraine and get bogged down in a war there.
Thus far Putin has avoided this but it becoming harder for him to play this game of chess.

Piliger

Egginacup wrote: »

MM, Ukraine would love to shoot down a Russian plane. They take their orders from Washington, remember and it is NATO's desire for Russia to invade Ukraine and get bogged down in a war there.
Thus far Putin has avoided this but it becoming harder for him to play this game of chess.

Aluminium has soared to $2,055 a tonne this week.

listermint

Egginacup wrote: »

MM, Ukraine would love to shoot down a Russian plane. They take their orders from Washington, remember and it is NATO's desire for Russia to invade Ukraine and get bogged down in a war there.
Thus far Putin has avoided this but it becoming harder for him to play this game of chess.

This comment encapsulates the ridiculousness of your posts on this matter.

It's incredibly disappointing that you cannot even forward a legitimate case for the opposing argument.

I would possibly research putting forward a better case for debate as the content of your posts on the matter would be best suited to comedy forum.

jimeryan22

Whats the latest here then..?

I see the bbc released a video they said shows rebels in the area supprised at an airliner being shot down .
Russia has provided sat and radar evidence showing a Ukrainian jet up there at the same time. ..
The ukraine intelligence tape fabricated
The video of buk crossing back into russia also fabricated...
And even heard of some guy called "robert parry" has said an intelligence source of his has told him the US are in possession of intel proving ukrainian soldiers shot it down..
I miss any other interesting news..?