Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

jimeryan22 · 25-07-2014 12:39am

pablo128 wrote: »

No, just a proven liar.

Proven to lie on what...?

Egginacup · 25-07-2014 12:48am

As I suspected the accusations of tampering in order to sully any investigation have begun.

On July 23 the BBC stated: "Whitehall sources say that information has emerged that MH17 crash evidence was deliberately tampered with as the plane's black boxes arrive in the UK."

Going on to contradict itself: “The Dutch Safety Board, which is leading the investigation, said ‘valid data’ had been downloaded from MH17’s cockpit voice recorder (CVR) which will be ‘further analyzed’. The board said: ‘The CVR was damaged but the memory module was intact. Furthermore no evidence or indications of manipulation of the CVR was found.’”

Corkfeen · 25-07-2014 12:54am

No contradiction, they failed to successfully affect the blackbox recordings. But did attempt to damage the box. You're bad at conspiracies...

Egginacup · 25-07-2014 1:13am

Corkfeen wrote: »

No contradiction, they failed to successfully affect the blackbox recordings. But did attempt to damage the box. You're bad at conspiracies...

So who actually has these boxes? How can they be simultaneously be in British and Dutch hands when the separatists handed them over to the Malaysians with the guarantee that they would be turned over to the International Civil Aviation Organisation for examination?

Who actually has them? Did the Russians ever have them?
Who is supposed to have done the tampering?

And the BBC just said that the the Dutch said that there was no evidence of tampering but you're saying they (someone) tried to damage the box. How do you know? Do you know something the Dutch don't know or are you just making it up? I'm not trying my hand at conspiracies here I'm just asking questions regarding more contradictions and inconsistencies.

So tell us then if you know so much. What exactly did "they" try to damage?

roryc · 25-07-2014 1:13am

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28476153

deco nate · 25-07-2014 1:17am

Egginacup wrote: »

So who actually has these boxes? How can they be simultaneously be in British and Dutch hands when the separatists handed them over to the Malaysians with the guarantee that they would be turned over to the International Civil Aviation Organisation for examination?
You don't watch the news do you?

The voice data box was sent to England,flight data sent to the other one, I can't remember the name off hand

Rotunda Shill · 25-07-2014 1:22am

Did anyone notice all the trapezoid shaped coffins used in the Dutch returning ceremony?. Trapezoidal coffins have deep mysterious occult significance. Common in horror vampire movies and Satanism.... Pope John Paul II was buried in a trapezoidal coffin.

jimeryan22 · 25-07-2014 1:27am

Corkfeen wrote: »

No contradiction, they failed to successfully affect the blackbox recordings. But did attempt to damage the box. You're bad at conspiracies...

Funny... It was reported when first handed over to Malaysian flight investigation team the boxes showed NO signs of having been tampered...
So more propaganda here

deco nate · 25-07-2014 1:28am

Rotunda Shill wrote: »

Did anyone notice all the trapezoid shaped coffins used in the Dutch returning ceremony?. Trapezoidal coffins have deep mysterious occult significance. Common in horror vampire movies and Satanism.... Pope John Paul II was buried in a trapezoidal coffin.

Wtf?!

Rotunda Shill · 25-07-2014 1:31am

deco nate wrote: »

Wtf?!

Have a look at images of the coffins used today coming out of the plane and brought across the tarmac.

...then Google the subject of trapezoid coffins.... creepy...

deco nate · 25-07-2014 1:39am

Rotunda Shill wrote: »

Have a look at images of the coffins used today coming out of the plane and brought across the tarmac.

...then Google the subject of trapezoid coffins.... creepy...

Nothing wrong with those coffins, still widely used across Europe. Nothing to see here, move along.

Piliger · 25-07-2014 1:43am

deco nate wrote: »

Nothing wrong with those coffins, still widely used across Europe. Nothing to see here, move along.

A Ukrainian on reddit says it is a traditional shape in his country.

InTheTrees · 25-07-2014 1:44am

Egginacup wrote: »

So who actually has these boxes?

I presume they'll end up in Seattle at the Boeing factory where they were installed.

Its not like you crack it open and there's a handy text file entitled "Here's what happened".

Wouldn't it be proprietary code (technically) owned by Boeing?

They particularly dont want some drunken russian inventing technical problems as yet another excuse.

deco nate · 25-07-2014 1:45am

Piliger wrote: »

A Ukrainian on reddit says it is a traditional shape in his country.

Yep, and in many other countries too, it's just some people just wanna.. You know,

deco nate · 25-07-2014 1:49am

InTheTrees wrote: »

I presume they'll end up in Seattle at the Boeing factory where they were installed.

Its not like you crack it open and there's a handy text file entitled "Here's what happened".

Wouldn't it be proprietary code (technically) owned by Boeing?

They particularly dont want some drunken russian inventing technical problems as yet another excuse.

No, one is in England, the voice data box, the flight data box was sent to another centre, I think in mainland Europe. It's not up to Boeing

aloyisious · 25-07-2014 3:03am

Can anyone recall where the piece about Putin's aircraft being over Ukrainian territory and being shot at came from? I'm just curious as to why an aircraft described as the Russian President's plane would be flying over Ukraine in the first place, given the stirred-up feelings of the natives, and why it was not reported, as it have been a major item in the news at the time, and a P.R. pro-bono gift for the Russians to point out how trigger happy the Ukrainians were.

aloyisious · 25-07-2014 3:22am

InTheTrees wrote: »

I presume they'll end up in Seattle at the Boeing factory where they were installed.

Its not like you crack it open and there's a handy text file entitled "Here's what happened".

Wouldn't it be proprietary code (technically) owned by Boeing?

They particularly dont want some drunken russian inventing technical problems as yet another excuse.

A "hands-off" attitude possibly to avoid a PR disaster in case of a court action, even if there was a proprietary issue, clean-hands and all that. Nothing like some-one to ask why a company (which may have a lot to lose if a faulty product it made was found liable to have been at fault in a disaster) was handed recording devices containing evidence as to the cause of a disaster, before an investigation into said disaster got them.

Egginacup · 25-07-2014 3:38am

InTheTrees wrote: »

I presume they'll end up in Seattle at the Boeing factory where they were installed.

Its not like you crack it open and there's a handy text file entitled "Here's what happened".

Wouldn't it be proprietary code (technically) owned by Boeing?

They particularly dont want some drunken russian inventing technical problems as yet another excuse.

Why would Boeing own the boxes? Where did you get that notion from? Are you suggesting that Boeing can sell a plane to an airline but they still actually own it?
That's ridiculous.
I can understand Apple owning the software that runs an iPad but they sure don't own the pictures you take on it, coversation you have and record on it or the book you write on it.

Egginacup · 25-07-2014 3:42am

InTheTrees wrote: »

I presume they'll end up in Seattle at the Boeing factory where they were installed.

Its not like you crack it open and there's a handy text file entitled "Here's what happened".

Wouldn't it be proprietary code (technically) owned by Boeing?

They particularly dont want some drunken russian inventing technical problems as yet another excuse.

and what is it with the "drunken Russian" comment?

aloyisious · 25-07-2014 3:50am

Seem's what Paulheu posted on page 108 is right, wit the Aussies supplying Civil Police Officers as well.. What-ever the Separatists might think about an armed trained well-equipped military not under their thumb operating in territory they claim as their own, it'd be interesting what the Russian Govt might think/act should the UN be asked to vote on it, given how it say's it has no hand or part in anything that is happening in the disputed territory.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/dutch-may-deploy-troops-to-mh17-crash-site-1.1877311

The Ukrainian Govt and President could invite the Dutch and Australians in to secure the crash scene as rep's of the interested/aggrieved nations which suffered loss in the downing of the plane. That'd put any party from outside Ukraine claiming NOT to be involved in the situation in an awkward spot should it attempt to "mouth-off" about outside interference in Ukrainian affairs.

...........................................................................................................................................................

Ta smurfjed (two posts down) for the Putin-plane reply...

deco nate · 25-07-2014 5:02am

And yet again the bot ignores posts by some posters that reply to his. Just to push his own agenda /ideas on others.... When I say him, I mean his/her handler's

smurfjed · 25-07-2014 7:10am

The wording from the UK Gov Official was a: The recorders have been delivered to the AAIB in Farnborough, b: the crash scene was tampered with. He didn't say that the recorders were tampered with.

BOTH recorders are with the AAIB.http://www.aaib.gov.uk/latest_news/mh17_recorders_delivered_to_the_aaib.cfm

The recorders are built by Honeywell and not Boeing, it is standard practice that in the event of any accident, the recording devices are sent for analysis to an organisation with the technical capability to review them, not the airline, aircraft manufacturer or avionics manufacturer. AAIB is world renowned for their abilities.

guarantee that they would be turned over to the International Civil Aviation Organisation

What exactly would you expect ICAO to do with the recorders? They don't have the technical expertise to review the device nor do they conduct accident investigations.

I'm just curious as to why an aircraft described as the Russian President's plane would be flying over Ukraine in the first place

Its mentioned in Russian media as one of the reasons the Russian people believe that Ukraine shot the aircraft down. It has since been rebuked. And as i said many pages ago,why would an aircraft carrying Putin be flying in a south easterly direction coming from Brazil to Moscow.

Right now the whole thing is going to go quiet (with the exception of boards:)) The Dutch Civil aviation authority will investigate the crash, they will have assistance from Malaysia, Ukraine, USA NTSB (Boeing, Honeywell, GE), they have requested assistance from the AAIB, and I believe that Russia was also invited to participate. A preliminary accident report will be issued when they have sufficient information to provide a fair analysis, the full report will take a couple of years. The subsequent court cases will go on for many more years and most likely, attempts will be made to drag them into a US court due to their litigation laws.

The investigation should answer the where, when, how, but I don't believe that it will conclusively answer the who/why!

deco nate · 25-07-2014 7:44am

Agree, all but the last bit, why?
Cos they ****ed up! How, Mmm.... That one is the big question.

deco nate · 25-07-2014 7:48am

But hey, egg will ignore posts. Just like the poster has always done.

Autonomous Cowherd · 25-07-2014 8:47am

I think that is a reasonable analysis Smurfjed of how things will proceed. It will indeed most likely take years to sort through the information and perhaps we will never arrive at definitive conclusions.

In spite of accusations of being Putins right hand promoters, i think that what Egg, and some others including myself, have been trying to say on this thread is that one should not jump to pre-emptive conclusions. in asmuch as Russia has not produced satellite images, neither has the USA or Europe.

I was reading Paul Craig Roberts today...he is a former Reagan advisor, a right-wing Republican whose cough has softened over the years, not my usual type of political hero, but even he states what has been suggested here...that proof is simply not conclusive. Stating this much does not make one an apologist for Putin. Putin is no hero of mine, but then again Obama has been a most dreadful disappointment. So there are no heroes here. Only hundreds of families bereaved in the most tragic way imaginable. As in Gaza. Atrocity after atrocity.
Anyways here is Paul Craig Roberts...While i do not agree with everything he says...and surely one can be allowed to do that....i put it here to note that there is not a global acceptance of the consensus on Russia, even outside of this forum.

Despite the conclusion by US intelligence that there is no evidence of Russian involvement in the destruction of the Malaysian airliner and all lives onboard, Washington is escalating the crisis and shepherding it toward war

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/24/washington-escalating-orchestrated-ukrainian-crisis-war-paul-craig-roberts/

comongethappy · 25-07-2014 9:01am

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/24/washington-escalating-orchestrated-ukrainian-crisis-war-paul-craig-roberts/

The US have already said they have no evidence of direct Russian involvement.....

They said evidence points towards Russian backed rebels.

Is this not the most likely & sensible place to point blame?

Autonomous Cowherd · 25-07-2014 9:09am

comongethappy wrote: »

The US have already said they have no evidence of Russian involvement.....

They said evidey points towards Russian backed rebels.

Is this not the most likely & sensible place to point blame ?

It is one of the possible scenarios. I have always said i do not know the truth of what happened here. Another possible scenario is Ukraine, either surface to air or air to air. It should be kept in mind that the legitimately elected President of Ukraine was toppled in what appears to have been a sponsored coup, with some very dodgy dealings by snipers in public areas. Why does nobody want to turn the tables and examine US involvement in that? Can you not see that to remain as neutral as possible when evaluating claims about responsibility would be the most advisable? A vortex of anti-Russian sentiment is being whipped up by the main Stream media, and while i am no fan of Russia, I have to ask WHY. Is it because the BRICS countries are growing so powerful that the old power centres are being thrown out of the game? Is it because Russia and Germany might some day make an alliance based on mutual interests in sharing technology and gas, thus edging US off the board in Europe? there are so many possibilities here, nothing is ever as simple as it looks. Who created the conditions in Ukraine that have led to a de facto civil war? And why? Can it be that there is shared blame? Why does one side have to be demonised above all others? These are just the questions that i have...

smurfjed · 25-07-2014 9:10am

Unfortunately I believe this it will be a case of occams razor.

It states that among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected. Other, more complicated solutions may ultimately prove correct, but—in the absence of certainty—the fewer assumptions that are made, the better.

No one woke up that morning with a plan to shoot down an airliner, but someone did press a fire button. I don't believe that they will ever find instructions from Russia, nor Ukraine, to prove without an element of doubt that it was an intentional act.

To blame Russia for setting the stage that created the event, is the same as blaming the USA for creating ISIS by liberating Iraq.

Autonomous Cowherd · 25-07-2014 9:11am

smurfjed wrote: »

Unfortunately I believe this it will be a case of occams razor.

No one woke up that morning with a plan to shoot down an airliner, but someone did press a fire button. I don't believe that they will ever find instructions from Russia, nor Ukraine, to prove without an element of doubt that it was an intentional act.

To blame Russia for setting the stage that created the event, is the same as blaming the USA for creating ISIS by liberating Iraq.

Good point.

listermint · 25-07-2014 9:13am

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

It is one of the possible scenarios. I have always said i do not know the truth of what happened here. Another possible scenario is Ukraine, either surface to air or air to air. It should be kept in mind that the legitimately elected President of Ukraine was toppled in what appears to have been a sponsored coup, with some very dodgy dealings by snipers in public areas. Why does nobody want to turn the tables and examine US involvement in that? Can you not see that to remain as neutral as possible when evaluating claims about responsibility would be the most advisable? A vortex of anti-Russian sentiment is being whipped up by the main Stream media, and while i am no fan of Russia, I have to ask WHY. Is it because the BRICS countries are growing so powerful that the old power centres are being thrown out of the game? Is it because Russia and Germany might some day make an alliance based on mutual interests in sharing technology and gas, thus edging US off the board in Europe? there are so many possibilities here, nothing is ever as simple as it looks. Who created the conditions in Ukraine that have led to a de facto civil war? And why? Can it be that there is shared blame? Why does one side have to be demonised above all others? These are just the questions that i have...

I'd imagine when your president has his own private palace with quite questionable spending of public moneys that's enough to spark local unrest without the input of external forces

Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

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