Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

comongethappy · 25-07-2014 9:19am

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

Can it be that there is shared blame?

No.

"Shared blame" is another word for deflected blame & diluted blame.

There was 1 hand on the trigger & that person had a chain of command.

There & only there does blame reside.

All else is a straw-man.

Autonomous Cowherd · 25-07-2014 9:19am

listermint wrote: »

I'd imagine when your president has his own private palace with quite questionable spending of public moneys that's enough to spark local unrest without the input of external forces

Hmmmm....hahaha..that made me laugh a little, because so many countries came rushing to mind. Could he be referring to Italy? France? Enda and his boyos drinking nice wines and snacking on buns in the Dáil?Putin? Obama? Oh hang on, he means the corrupt former President yanukovych.
Haha...smiles...not so much divides these people. The division is between our lives and theirs..and that's the way they like it.

Corkfeen · 25-07-2014 9:20am

Egginacup wrote: »

So who actually has these boxes? How can they be simultaneously be in British and Dutch hands when the separatists handed them over to the Malaysians with the guarantee that they would be turned over to the International Civil Aviation Organisation for examination?

Who actually has them? Did the Russians ever have them?
Who is supposed to have done the tampering?

And the BBC just said that the the Dutch said that there was no evidence of tampering but you're saying they (someone) tried to damage the box. How do you know? Do you know something the Dutch don't know or are you just making it up? I'm not trying my hand at conspiracies here I'm just asking questions regarding more contradictions and inconsistencies.

So tell us then if you know so much. What exactly did "they" try to damage?

All news sites are saying it wasn't tampered with so it was more a matter of misreading your statement.

In relation to how British and Dutch investigators are looking at black box. There's two of them, the Dutch have one, English the other. They will both be sent back to the air disaster investigator today . No contradiction, just a deliberate inability to do some basic research.

Accusing me of conspiracy theories? You've twisted every part of the story to suit a western conspiracy to destroy mother Russia. But I, a conspiracy theorist? I don't like bull**** artists.

deco nate · 25-07-2014 9:20am

listermint wrote: »

I'd imagine when your president has his own private palace with quite questionable spending of public moneys that's enough to spark local unrest without the input of external forces

Yep, funny how people like to over look that. And then go on to blame 'external forces'

Autonomous Cowherd · 25-07-2014 9:22am

comongethappy wrote: »

No.

"Shared blame" is another word for deflected blame & diluted blame.

There was 1 hand on the trigger & that person had a chain of command.

There & only there does blame reside.

All else is a straw-man.

Okay then. Following your logic, find and arrest the barbarian who committed this atrocity and make him and him alone responsible for his despicable crime. I'm all for that. That would be logical and fair. Don't use it as an Archduke Ferdinand-style excuse to further geo-political strategies.

deco nate · 25-07-2014 9:24am

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

Okay then. Following your logic, find and arrest the barbarian who committed this atrocity and make him and him alone responsible for his despicable crime. I'm all for that. That would be logical and fair. Don't use it as an Archduke Ferdinand-style excuse to further geo-political strategies.

Ever hear of chain of command?

smurfjed · 25-07-2014 9:25am

Corkfeen

The recorders from MH17 have been delivered by the Dutch Safety Board to the AAIB Farnborough for download

taken from aaib.gov.uk

Can you please quote a source for the statement that they will be sent back to the manufacturer? Also can you quote a precedent where this was done in a previous air accident?

deco nate · 25-07-2014 9:28am

smurfjed wrote: »

Corkfeen

taken from aaib.gov.uk

Can you please quote a source for the statement that they will be sent back to the manufacturer? Also can you quote a precedent where this was done in a previous air accident?

That has never happened, it has to be independent, to stop any ct bs. Oh and fraud.

Autonomous Cowherd · 25-07-2014 9:29am

deco nate wrote: »

Ever hear of chain of command?

Ever hear of Saddam's ''weapons of mass destruction''? the supply of arms by USA into Israel? Chemical weapons in Syria supplied by who? A chain of command is a militaristic term...but there are other kinds of connective chains...leading back to places no one wants to look.

deco nate · 25-07-2014 9:31am

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

Ever hear of Saddam's ''weapons of mass destruction''? the supply of arms by USA into Israel? Chemical weapons in Syria supplied by who? A chain of command is a militaristic term...but there are other kinds of connective chains...leading back to places no one wants to look.

And so you just want the person that pushed the button, and no one else? Ok

Autonomous Cowherd · 25-07-2014 9:36am

deco nate wrote: »

And so you just want the person that pushed the button, and no one else? Ok

And if it proves to have been a drunken blackguard of a pro-Russian separatist gone rogue, you want the whole of Russia. Mmmm-kay.

Corkfeen · 25-07-2014 9:42am

smurfjed wrote: »

Corkfeen

taken from aaib.gov.uk

Can you please quote a source for the statement that they will be sent back to the manufacturer? Also can you quote a precedent where this was done in a previous air accident?

Corrected on that one. It's a diplomatic incident so it is unlikely to be a clone of standard investigations. Plus, tbh nothing has been standard about this investigation. The crash site wasn't even shut down because of separatists but the evil west is your personal gripe..

Tampering with black boxes is exceedingly difficult(not even sure if anyone has successfully edited data ever) so it would simply be impossible in such a short timespan even if you believe that's what they're doing.

The combined data from the boxes will give the best idea of the events on board that led to the crash.

Autonomous Cowherd · 25-07-2014 9:42am

deco nate wrote: »

And so you just want the person that pushed the button, and no one else? Ok

Or hey, how about this...the Russians (IF they are in the ''chain of command'') could eventually pay off the victims families quietly without acknowledging responsibility like ooooh, i dunno the USA did when they shot 290 civilians on an Iranian civilian plane out of the sky in 1988. Sanctions or other ''appropriate actions short of men on the ground'' against USA for that act? I think not.

smurfjed · 25-07-2014 9:50am

The combined data from the boxes will give the best idea of the events on board that led to the crash.

What sort of information do you think that they will get from the recorders?

It's a diplomatic incident so it is unlikely to be a clone of standard investigations.

Gotta disagree with you on this, unless its an IDENTICAL CLONE of previous investigations, it leaves the door open to screams of conspiracy.

deco nate · 25-07-2014 9:51am

One reply to my post not good enough for you?
First a drunken russian? Really?? And the you're 2post??

deco nate · 25-07-2014 9:56am

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

And if it proves to have been a drunken blackguard of a pro-Russian separatist gone rogue, you want the whole of Russia. Mmmm-kay.

And since when did I say the whole of Russia?? Point that out for me again!?
Just the people involved will do I'm sure for the family's that lost loved ones. You do know it takes more than one person to operate a buk. Dont
You?I give up

Autonomous Cowherd · 25-07-2014 9:56am

deco nate wrote: »

One reply to my post not good enough for you?
First a drunken russian? Really?? And the you're 2post??

Obviously not

Autonomous Cowherd · 25-07-2014 10:00am

deco nate wrote: »

And since when did I say the whole of Russia?? Point that out for me again!?
Just the people involved will do I'm sure for the family's that lost loved ones. You do know it takes more than one person to operate a buk. Dont
You?

That's okay then. We are agreed. Let us find, try and, if proven guilty, punish that person and his two or three henchmen who operated the missile. No need then to sanction the whole of a country (be it Ukraine or Russia) or to put in military reinforcements that will cause an escalation of an already very dangerous conflict.

aloyisious · 25-07-2014 10:38am

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

Ever hear of Saddam's ''weapons of mass destruction''? the supply of arms by USA into Israel? Chemical weapons in Syria supplied by who? A chain of command is a militaristic term...but there are other kinds of connective chains...leading back to places no one wants to look.

Proof that End-User Certs don't always work....

Peist2007 · 25-07-2014 10:40am

So, new day, any evidence yet produced?

smurfjed · 25-07-2014 10:41am

http://nypost.com/2014/07/25/russia-planning-major-missile-shipment-to-ukraine-rebels-us/

Russia has been lobbing artillery shells into Ukraine and is planning to give the rebels missiles that are even deadlier than the one that downed Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, the US State Department said Thursday.
“We have new evidence that the Russians intend to deliver heavier and more powerful, multiple rocket launchers to the separatist forces in Ukraine, and have evidence that Russia is firing artillery from within Russia to attack Ukrainian military positions,” said State Department spokeswoman Marie Harf.
The stunning allegations were “just some pieces of info I’ve been able to get from our intelligence friends,” said Harf, who declined to provide details. “I can’t get into the sources and methods behind it.”
Harf’s remarks came after a NATO military official told reporters that the continuing flow of weapons from Russia into Ukraine “is a cause for concern.”

I'm sure that Egg and co can just as easily find similar reports of the US/EU/NATO arming Ukraine, but unfortunately it appears that the fighting in that area is going to escalate rather than diminish.

jimeryan22 · 25-07-2014 10:45am

Peist2007 wrote: »

So, new day, any evidence yet produced?

Nope... Just same ****.. Russia's at fault. We have proof. But we won't show it to anyone....

Peist2007 · 25-07-2014 10:50am

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Nope... Just same ****.. Russia's at fault. We have proof. But we won't show it to anyone....

Figured as much. The whole thing stinks. The NY Times link quoted above is also telling to anyone who has read about how propoganda works in the media. They have already subtly moved on to what Russia is going to do next. The initial guilt has already been established

jimeryan22 · 25-07-2014 10:55am

Peist2007 wrote: »

Figured as much. The whole thing stinks. The NY Times link quoted above is also telling to anyone who has read about how propoganda works in the media. They have already subtly moved on to what Russia is going to do next. The initial guilt has already been established

That's it mate, but watch yourself there, someone's likely to call you out as a tinfoil hatter for using your brain...

Egginacup · 25-07-2014 11:15am

smurfjed wrote: »

The wording from the UK Gov Official was a: The recorders have been delivered to the AAIB in Farnborough, b: the crash scene was tampered with. He didn't say that the recorders were tampered with.

BOTH recorders are with the AAIB.

The recorders are built by Honeywell and not Boeing, it is standard practice that in the event of any accident, the recording devices are sent for analysis to an organisation with the technical capability to review them, not the airline, aircraft manufacturer or avionics manufacturer. AAIB is world renowned for their abilities.

What exactly would you expect ICAO to do with the recorders? They don't have the technical expertise to review the device nor do they conduct accident investigations.

Its mentioned in Russian media as one of the reasons the Russian people believe that Ukraine shot the aircraft down. It has since been rebuked. And as i said many pages ago,why would an aircraft carrying Putin be flying in a south easterly direction coming from Brazil to Moscow.

Right now the whole thing is going to go quiet (with the exception of boards:)) The Dutch Civil aviation authority will investigate the crash, they will have assistance from Malaysia, Ukraine, USA NTSB (Boeing, Honeywell, GE), they have requested assistance from the AAIB, and I believe that Russia was also invited to participate. A preliminary accident report will be issued when they have sufficient information to provide a fair analysis, the full report will take a couple of years. The subsequent court cases will go on for many more years and most likely, attempts will be made to drag them into a US court due to their litigation laws.

The investigation should answer the where, when, how, but I don't believe that it will conclusively answer the who/why!

I don't know what the ICAO would do with them. I'm just going by what I read:

online(dot)wsj(dot)com/articles/black-boxes-remain-crucial-to-malaysia-airlines-crash-investigation-1405889305

Maybe they, as a branch of the UN, oversee an investigation or at least have some kind of observer status.

Spunge · 25-07-2014 11:16am

Man malaysian airline flights are pretty good prices atm. Might take a trip to thailand.

comongethappy · 25-07-2014 11:19am

Spunge wrote: »

Man malaysian airline flights are pretty good prices atm. Might take a trip to thailand.

They are always one of the best value carriers.
Flew with them to NZ last year for €700

Terrific value & service, hopefully they survive.

Egginacup · 25-07-2014 11:19am

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

I think that is a reasonable analysis Smurfjed of how things will proceed. It will indeed most likely take years to sort through the information and perhaps we will never arrive at definitive conclusions.

In spite of accusations of being Putins right hand promoters, i think that what Egg, and some others including myself, have been trying to say on this thread is that one should not jump to pre-emptive conclusions. in asmuch as Russia has not produced satellite images, neither has the USA or Europe.

I was reading Paul Craig Roberts today...he is a former Reagan advisor, a right-wing Republican whose cough has softened over the years, not my usual type of political hero, but even he states what has been suggested here...that proof is simply not conclusive. Stating this much does not make one an apologist for Putin. Putin is no hero of mine, but then again Obama has been a most dreadful disappointment. So there are no heroes here. Only hundreds of families bereaved in the most tragic way imaginable. As in Gaza. Atrocity after atrocity.
Anyways here is Paul Craig Roberts...While i do not agree with everything he says...and surely one can be allowed to do that....i put it here to note that there is not a global acceptance of the consensus on Russia, even outside of this forum.

I mentioned Robert Parry a little while back and the simple dismissal of him by some poster was that he was "a proven liar". And that was the end of it. I expect Roberts will meet with the same derision.

Egginacup · 25-07-2014 11:26am

comongethappy wrote: »

The US have already said they have no evidence of direct Russian involvement.....

They said evidence points towards Russian backed rebels.

Is this not the most likely & sensible place to point blame?

At the end of the day the onus is upon those who are doing all the accusing to prove it. If Putin has any sense he will keep his mouth shut and just wait for the so called evidence to prove he is in some way responsible.

If they have the proof they say they have then reveal it. It's not a difficult concept to get one's head around.

Once you cave into demands of this nature you empower your accusers and weaken yourself.

Saadyst · 25-07-2014 11:34am

Good thing no-one has to "prove" anything to anyone here... the level of evidence needed is ridiculous.. still not seen how anything can be realistically "verified". We'd be here for decades trying to figure out what happened taking the approaches people are are talking about. "How do we know a missile hit the plane?" Yeah, it could be flying ghosts or UFOs, can't rule anything out...

While we're at it, can we take a look at the laws of physics too? Has the evidence been verified by independent and impartial sources? Has Robert Parry taken a look? :rolleyes:

Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

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