Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

dodzy

There should be some *system integrated into Boards, particularly in relation to aircraft disasters, that when the thread reaches "stupid, repetitive joke status", a mod can intervene and lock it up. Seriously, some of the bitchin posts in here are ridiculous.

*/runs off to develop aforementioned system

Peist2007

Piliger wrote: »

I call that overwhelming and indisputable evidence of mass murder.

Agreed.

Cool Mo D

Ok, lets review the evidence:

The seperatists have admitted they had a ground to air missile launcher http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/23/mh17-ukraine-separatists-buk-missile-system. The rebels posted to social media accounts of them shooting down a plane in the area, before realising they hit a civilian plane. There are recorded telephone calls of them discussing this with Russian state security forces. The separatists have been shooting down Ukrainian planes in the area before MH17 crashed, and have been shooting down planes after MH-17 crashed. US intelligence, who have a satellite network capable of picking up the infrared missile launch signatures (http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/07/how-us-satellites-pinpointed-source-of-missile-that-shot-down-airliner/), has stated that the plane was shot down by a missile launched from rebel held territory. There are pictures of a BUK being driven back into Russia from Ukraine after the shooting down of MH17 minus 2 missiles.

Meanwhile Putin who has been funding, arming and supplying the rebels, is not even denying the Western version of events, and is simply saying that it was the Ukrainians fault for not giving into the seperatists in the first place.

Looks like a fairly open and shut case to me.

who_me

Peist2007 wrote: »

The voice recordings have been debunked since. They arent even definitely from that particular time and could have referred to any event.

I agree that it is only just beginning. My question is why is one side being immediately accused when there is no evidence. And also when there are other parties with better motives for such an act.

The recordings are still evidence, and have been made public. As regards their authenticity, what is the evidence that indicates they're not real? (Genuine question).

As regarding other evidence, the spread of the wreckage is evidence of a mid-air break up. The shrapnel holes in the fuselage is evidence (evidence, not proof) of that break-up being caused by a missile strike. The location of the incident over territory held by Eastern separatists means they are inevitably the first suspects. None of this is a slam-dunk case, but it is "evidence".

There's also the reported admission by a separatist that they shot the flight down by accident (as reported in the Italian media). There's the claim by US intelligence that they detected the heat signature of the ground-based launch - that data hasn't been made public yet for verification; but as I said above it's still very early days. Just because that evidence hasn't made it immediately into the public domain doesn't mean we can say the US is lying. If the investigation concludes without the US making that data public, that would be suspicious.

For the moment though, I don't know how anyone could say there's no evidence.

amen

I have being following this thread for some time and I don't normally post in AfterHours due its nature. A lot of the posts seem to ask for evidence or lack of.

While there currently appears to be not totally verifiable evidence there does appear to be a preponderance of events that suggest the plane may have been hit by a missile.

The current status appears to be

1. Transponder data became unreliable at 13:18Z (position N48.28 E38.08) FL 330
2. Transponder data lost at 13:20z FL 330
3. Plane wreckage found N48.1230 E38.5258 approx 20nm from last transponder location and 20nm from Ukraine/Russian border
4. A Boeing 777 has a cruise speed of approx 560 mph. In 2 minutes of normal flight the plan will cover approx 18 miles which equates to approx 16nm. So from the time the planes last record position to where it was found is within the possible travel distance at cruise speed.
5. No indication of any issues with MH17 and no emergency call
6. Due to the lack of an emergency call there most likely was a very serious sudden issue aboard the aircraft that required both pilots attention (aviate, navigate, communicate in that order) or there was a very sudden and catastrophic failure
7. There have been no sudden or catastrophic failures of 777 that I am aware of to date
8. The wreckage is spread around a 15 Km (possibly ) large diameter from the main crash site.
9. At approx the same time Ukrainian separatists claimed to have shot a Ukrainian AN26
10. Attempts were made to remove the above comments from twitter/internet etc
11. The Dutch Safety Board have managed to read the flight recorders and data was not tampered with.

Based on the above it appears the plan suffered a massive catastrophic failure caused by
A: a previously unknown design fault that just happened to occur when overflying a war zone
B: the plane was hit by a missile

Personally I'm going for B.

The next question is who fired the missile and from where.

Peist2007

who_me wrote: »

The recordings are still evidence, and have been made public. As regards their authenticity, what is the evidence that indicates they're not real? (Genuine question).

As regarding other evidence, the spread of the wreckage is evidence of a mid-air break up. The shrapnel holes in the fuselage is evidence (evidence, not proof) of that break-up being caused by a missile strike. The location of the incident over territory held by Eastern separatists means they are inevitably the first suspects. None of this is a slam-dunk case, but it is "evidence".

There's also the reported admission by a separatist that they shot the flight down by accident (as reported in the Italian media). There's the claim by US intelligence that they detected the heat signature of the ground-based launch - that data hasn't been made public yet for verification; but as I said above it's still very early days. Just because that evidence hasn't made it immediately into the public domain doesn't mean we can say the US is lying. If the investigation concludes without the US making that data public, that would be suspicious.

For the moment though, I don't know how anyone could say there's no evidence.

I never said the US were lying. I said that by making accusations of a very serious nature without backing it up with any evidence is quite suspicious. Especially as that evidence could really hurt Putin, which i am guessing is what they would like to do?

As regards your other points:

The recordings have been debunked. They are possibly evidence of another plane being shot down at a different time. But not this one.
The break-up of wreckage could be signs of a surface to air missile i agree. But it could have been a bomb. It could have been a missile fired from an airborne jet. Those would spread wreckage fairly well too. Point is, we dont know.
The rest is conjecture. If the US has the heat signals then show them. Can the UKrainian military jet flying with the plane be explained or verified?

A few posters here assume, because i am not blindly following their party line, that i must be a shill of some sort. Listermint depressingly said that i am "that guy". Shame on you Listermint. People who ask questions and think for themselves are worth much more than those who blindly follow and then, from positions of ignorance, mock those that question. It's a sad thing.

Peist2007

amen wrote: »

I have being following this thread for some time and I don't normally post in AfterHours due its nature. A lot of the posts seem to ask for evidence or lack of.

While there currently appears to be not totally verifiable evidence there does appear to be a preponderance of events that suggest the plane may have been hit by a missile.

The current status appears to be

1. Transponder data became unreliable at 13:18Z (position N48.28 E38.08) FL 330
2. Transponder data lost at 13:20z FL 330
3. Plane wreckage found N48.1230 E38.5258 approx 20nm from last transponder location and 20nm from Ukraine/Russian border
4. A Boeing 777 has a cruise speed of approx 560 mph. In 2 minutes of normal flight the plan will cover approx 18 miles which equates to approx 16nm. So from the time the planes last record position to where it was found is within the possible travel distance at cruise speed.
5. No indication of any issues with MH17 and no emergency call
6. Due to the lack of an emergency call there most likely was a very serious sudden issue aboard the aircraft that required both pilots attention (aviate, navigate, communicate in that order) or there was a very sudden and catastrophic failure
7. There have been no sudden or catastrophic failures of 777 that I am aware of to date
8. The wreckage is spread around a 15 Km (possibly ) large diameter from the main crash site.
9. At approx the same time Ukrainian separatists claimed to have shot a Ukrainian AN26
10. Attempts were made to remove the above comments from twitter/internet etc
11. The Dutch Safety Board have managed to read the flight recorders and data was not tampered with.

Based on the above it appears the plan suffered a massive catastrophic failure caused by
A: a previously unknown design fault that just happened to occur when overflying a war zone
B: the plane was hit by a missile

Personally I'm going for B.

The next question is who fired the missile and from where.

What about a bomb on board? Would that not have the same effect? Why isnt a bomb part of the possibilties?

Autonomous Cowherd

Throwing another into the mix. A BBCRussian report that was allegedly deleted. Again, as with anyone else here who is remaining open minded, i am just considering different pieces of information, and waiting till the truth emerges. (If it ever does).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUvK5m2vxro

DamagedTrax

who_me wrote: »

The recordings are still evidence, and have been made public. As regards their authenticity, what is the evidence that indicates they're not real? (Genuine question).

i'll comment on this alone as its my area.

while there is no evidence that the calls are not real (although i just read above a poster say they've been debunked, gonna look into that now), there's none that prove they are. i can record a conversation with a mate tomorrow and tell the world i was talking to putin, that doesnt make it true.

an independent investigation on the call logs and some audio analysis by getting a verified file of the voices in the call and comparing them to the recording in question, is how that particular piece of evidence should be approached.

im sure they'll be working on the above already if the evidence is genuine. if we never hear anything come of it then we can conclude there may have been funny business going on.

jimeryan22

who_me wrote: »

There were the voice recordings allegedly of pro-Russian separatists discussing a civilian airliner was shot down? That's certainly evidence. I've read claims these are fake, but I haven't seen any evidence of that claim.

Also, the investigation into this event is only just beginning, so it's a bit early to be assuming there's no evidence to be shown.

You said yourself... Alleged.. And certainly not proven 100%.. So therefore that is not evidence..
You say it's early..? The US said the day after the plane be jg brought down they had satellite data suggesting rebels had shot it down and didn't bother their bollox showing any.. Again. Not evidence
Just hearsay of evidence..

listermint

DamagedTrax wrote: »

i'll comment on this alone as its my area.

while there is no evidence that the calls are not real (although i just read above a poster say they've been debunked, gonna look into that now), there's none that prove they are. i can record a conversation with a mate tomorrow and tell the world i was talking to putin, that doesnt make it true.

an independent investigation on the call logs and some audio analysis by getting a verified file of the voices in the call and comparing them to the recording in question, is how that particular piece of evidence should be approached.

im sure they'll be working on the above already if the evidence is genuine. if we never hear anything come of it then we can conclude there may have been funny business going on.

If it's your area then you would know that the Americans already verified the calls against known comms from that seperatist commander .

But sure it's the Americans again and that's never enough for those who hate everything western and use all western developed technology's and Western laptops to post their comment from their free democratic the western lives.

Debate is pointless when people ignore any evidence given to them. It's like trying to take a no handed selfy. Pointless

jimeryan22

listermint wrote: »

If it's your area then you would know that the Americans already verified the calls against known comms from that seperatist commander .

But sure it's the Americans again and that's never enough for those who hate everything western and use all western developed technology's and Western laptops to post their comment from their free democratic the western lives.

Debate is pointless when people ignore any evidence given to them. It's like trying to take a no handed selfy. Pointless

Please show any of us here, this definitive US intelligence that tape is real.. ??
Especially as they haven't shown anybody. Just said they have it..
You believe evidence you haven't seen yet do you..?

Peist2007

listermint wrote: »

If it's your area then you would know that the Americans already verified the calls against known comms from that seperatist commander .

Here we go. That is some potential evidence. Link please?

jimeryan22

Keep digging there..

Autonomous Cowherd

listermint wrote: »

If it's your area then you would know that the Americans already verified the calls against known comms from that seperatist commander .

But sure it's the Americans again and that's never enough for those who hate everything western and use all western developed technology's and Western laptops to post their comment from their free democratic the western lives.

Debate is pointless when people ignore any evidence given to them. It's like trying to take a no handed selfy. Pointless

I don't hate all things Western or American at all. I am fully capable of separating the American people from a corrupted American government. Or the Italians from a corrupted Italian government. Or the Israelis from the IDF. Just as i am fully capable of separating the Irish people from the buffoons who enslaved us in debt for generations to come. Why come out with these trite generalisations that everyone who does not think a certain way is either a conspiracy theorist or anti-American? It's too easy and means nothing.

It's so old hat anyways nowadays...we are all citizens of the planet, embracing our own cultural uniqueness but knowing how small a globe it is that we share in the vastness of space. And the dividing lines between so-called East and West are merely constructs.

jimeryan22

Oh by the way... If your saying is what's called evidence.. Surely then so is Robert parry, ex associated press reporter saying his intelligence source told him the US actually has satellite data showing the Ukrainians shooting the plane down but are sitting on it..
That's concrete evidence too then..?

listermint

The links were posted several times within this exact thread. There is quite literally zero point in me going back over it to find them. Because you three amigos disputed them the first time. Apparently you want to hear them yourselves and compare them against older comms from the same guy because I hear you guys went to some spy college.


And I stand firm on the anti western agenda you all display. It's very visible in all your posts but show me but show me but show me.


Il sit back now and not engage you anymore because it's tiresome and its more amusing to get a chuckle out of some of the ways some people's minds work.


Always in the know never in the norm.....

Peist2007

listermint wrote: »

The links were posted several times within this exact thread. There is quite literally zero point in me going back over it to find them. Because you three amigos disputed them the first time. Apparently you want to hear them yourselves and compare them against older comms from the same guy because I hear you guys went to some spy college.


And I stand firm on the anti western agenda you all display. It's very visible in all your posts but show me but show me but show me.


Il sit back now and not engage you anymore because it's tiresome and its more amusing to get a chuckle out of some of the ways some people's minds work.


Always in the know never in the norm.....

So nothing then as expected. Good man

And asking for evidence is anti-western!

jimeryan22

listermint wrote: »

The links were posted several times within this exact thread. There is quite literally zero point in me going back over it to find them. Because you three amigos disputed them the first time. Apparently you want to hear them yourselves and compare them against older comms from the same guy because I hear you guys went to some spy college.


And I stand firm on the anti western agenda you all display. It's very visible in all your posts but show me but show me but show me.


Il sit back now and not engage you anymore because it's tiresome and its more amusing to get a chuckle out of some of the ways some people's minds work.


Always in the know never in the norm.....

The best example I've seen in a while of someone who's knows they're talking rubbish, and now try's to make themselves not look stupid..

DamagedTrax

listermint wrote: »

The links were posted several times within this exact thread. There is quite literally zero point in me going back over it to find them. Because you three amigos disputed them the first time. Apparently you want to hear them yourselves and compare them against older comms from the same guy because I hear you guys went to some spy college.


And I stand firm on the anti western agenda you all display. It's very visible in all your posts but show me but show me but show me.


Il sit back now and not engage you anymore because it's tiresome and its more amusing to get a chuckle out of some of the ways some people's minds work.


Always in the know never in the norm.....

firstly - the phonecall audio was posted. there is zero verification of the call. thats a fact, if you argue that you're just making stuff up.

secondly - im a fully qualified sound engineer with a large section of my college course and work day involving audio analysis.. not spy school as you so ignorantly put it.

and thirdly - i dont give a flying monkeys ass if it was russia, seperatists, ukranians or obama himself that pulled the trigger, all i want to see is the evidence so that somebody somewhere can be brought to justice.

i spoke about this particular piece of evidence as its an area i work in. whats your expertise relating to the situation?

listermint

DamagedTrax wrote: »

firstly - the phonecall audio was posted. there is zero verification of the call. thats a fact, if you argue that you're just making stuff up.

secondly - im a fully qualified sound engineer with a large section of my college course and work day involving audio analysis.. not spy school as you so ignorantly put it.

and thirdly - i dont give a flying monkeys ass if it was russia, seperatists, ukranians or obama himself that pulled the trigger, all i want to see is the evidence so that somebody somewhere can be brought to justice.

i spoke about this particular piece of evidence as its an area i work in. whats your expertise relating to the situation?

Type this part into any search engine you wish

"audio of separatist commander verified" most all the returns on it state the voice on the call sounds the same as previous comms recorded of this guy's voice.


And the fact that you went to audio college bears no relation to you having skills to decipher human voice comparisons so it does not impress me an ounce.


Still you guys know it all so as I said before this so called debate is pointless.

I could hand hold you guys to the site and put a piece of Shrapnel in your hand from a missile that says up the Republic of donestk on the side and you would still argue white is black.

who_me

DamagedTrax wrote: »

i'll comment on this alone as its my area.

while there is no evidence that the calls are not real (although i just read above a poster say they've been debunked, gonna look into that now), there's none that prove they are. i can record a conversation with a mate tomorrow and tell the world i was talking to putin, that doesnt make it true.

an independent investigation on the call logs and some audio analysis by getting a verified file of the voices in the call and comparing them to the recording in question, is how that particular piece of evidence should be approached.

im sure they'll be working on the above already if the evidence is genuine. if we never hear anything come of it then we can conclude there may have been funny business going on.

I don't know if the calls were real or not, but they are evidence worthy of consideration and further investigation. It's not the easiest thing in the world to prove any evidence is genuine - voice recordings, photos, even videos can be faked - but as you say identifying the parties involved and a comparison with their voices would go a long way.

I wholeheartedly agree we shouldn't take every piece of evidence at face value; I just don't agree that anyone can say there's no evidence. That simply isn't true.

DamagedTrax

listermint wrote: »

"audio of separatist commander verified" most all the returns on it state the voice on the call sounds the same as previous comms recorded of this guy's voice.

sounding the same and being the same are seperate things. visual analysis of the audio from key points in the voice can bring us much closer to saying they are the same but just claiming 'they sound the same' is pure rubbish.

And the fact that you went to audio college bears no relation to you having skills to decipher human voice comparisons so it does not impress me an ounce.

oh doesnt it? where exactly do you think forensic audio analysis learn their skills?

Peist2007

DamagedTrax wrote: »

i dont give a flying monkeys ass if it was russia, seperatists, ukranians or obama himself that pulled the trigger, all i want to see is the evidence so that somebody somewhere can be brought to justice.

This is exactly my position. I have no love for Putin at all. His treatment of minorities is disgusting and backward. But if he was behind this and you say there is evidence supporting that, lets see it. I am hardly going to just trust your word. WMD, NSA - a bunch of abbreviations spring to mind when i hear of the US government telling us it knows something and we just have to take their word for it.

This debate raises the broader question of how compliant people have become. People here have been shown nothing yet they believe without question. And then question, mock and deride those that do. Extremely Orwellian. The powers that be dont even have to try anymore. They show us no evidence and then say that evidence is mounting. It's actually mental when looked at objectively.

Peist2007

listermint wrote: »

Type this part into any search engine you wish

"audio of separatist commander verified" most all the returns on it state the voice on the call sounds the same as previous comms recorded of this guy's voice.


And the fact that you went to audio college bears no relation to you having skills to decipher human voice comparisons so it does not impress me an ounce.


Still you guys know it all so as I said before this so called debate is pointless.

I could hand hold you guys to the site and put a piece of Shrapnel in your hand from a missile that says up the Republic of donestk on the side and you would still argue white is black.

Thought you took the football home. Anything funny to say?

who_me

jimeryan22 wrote: »

You said yourself... Alleged.. And certainly not proven 100%.. So therefore that is not evidence..
You say it's early..? The US said the day after the plane be jg brought down they had satellite data suggesting rebels had shot it down and didn't bother their bollox showing any.. Again. Not evidence
Just hearsay of evidence..

I think you're confusing evidence and proof.

These calls are evidence worthy of investigation, and if verified would be fairly damning proof. Even so, on their own they wouldn't be certain proof of guilt - several aircraft were shot down, wires get crossed and confusion reigns in war-time - but it would go a long way towards proving the case against the separatist Ukrainians.

DamagedTrax

Peist2007 wrote: »

His treatment of minorities is disgusting and backward.

exactly! i wouldnt piss on the guy if he was on fire but i wouldnt light the match either unless i knew for sure.

listermint

DamagedTrax wrote: »

sounding the same and being the same are seperate things. visual analysis of the audio from key points in the voice can bring us much closer to saying they are the same but just claiming 'they sound the same' is pure rubbish.




oh doesnt it? where exactly do you think forensic audio analysis learn their skills?

Not in ballyfermot media college anyway

DamagedTrax

listermint wrote: »

Not in ballyfermot media college anyway

just as well i didnt go there. try again.

listermint

Peist2007 wrote: »

Thought you took the football home. Anything funny to say?

Shares in aluminium are through the roof.


I've made a killing on them. Cheers