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Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

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    #1772
    KahBoom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭KahBoom


    Can anyone provide a single compelling reason to believe the US and western nations claims, over the claims of Russia?

    The facts in this case - what few there are at the moment - do not provide a whole lot of clarity.

    It is extremely worrying how much this has notched up tensions, and is being used to hastily pursue sanctions against Russia - without even adequate evidence to support doing this legally - it's like the US are trying to further sour relations between EU/Russia, and begin a new cold war - regardless of waiting for adequate evidence.


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    #1773
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    KahBoom wrote: »
    Can anyone provide a single compelling reason to believe the US and western nations claims, over the claims of Russia?

    The facts in this case - what few there are at the moment - do not provide a whole lot of clarity.

    It is extremely worrying how much this has notched up tensions, and is being used to hastily pursue sanctions against Russia - without even adequate evidence to support doing this legally - it's like the US are trying to further sour relations between EU/Russia, and begin a new cold war - regardless of waiting for adequate evidence.

    possibly more metaphorical 'WMDs'... possibly not.


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    #1774
    jimeryan22
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭jimeryan22


    KahBoom wrote: »
    Can anyone provide a single compelling reason to believe the US and western nations claims, over the claims of Russia?

    The facts in this case - what few there are at the moment - do not provide a whole lot of clarity.

    It is extremely worrying how much this has notched up tensions, and is being used to hastily pursue sanctions against Russia - without even adequate evidence to support doing this legally - it's like the US are trying to further sour relations between EU/Russia, and begin a new cold war - regardless of waiting for adequate evidence.

    What's scary is I read an article yesterday saying 1 in 10 Americans now wants war with Russia over this plane..


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    #1775
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    Thanks for the replies about how the bodies got to Netherlands.
    KahBoom wrote: »
    Can anyone provide a single compelling reason to believe the US and western nations claims, over the claims of Russia?

    The facts in this case - what few there are at the moment - do not provide a whole lot of clarity.

    It is extremely worrying how much this has notched up tensions, and is being used to hastily pursue sanctions against Russia - without even adequate evidence to support doing this legally - it's like the US are trying to further sour relations between EU/Russia, and begin a new cold war - regardless of waiting for adequate evidence.

    Well the people who are connected to the Russians controlled the area, they arrived on the scene and weren't exactly welcoming to others and then Russia makes no attempt to prove this claims wrong. Russia is keeping a very close watch on Ukraine, if something happened they would have something to show they werent involves or who was.


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    #1776
    KahBoom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭KahBoom


    jimeryan22 wrote: »
    What's scary is I read an article yesterday saying 1 in 10 Americans now wants war with Russia over this plane..
    Not quite - 1 in 10 want war, only if Russia is proven to have downed the plane:
    http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2014/07/21/cnn-poll-favorable-views-of-russia-drop-following-malaysian-airliner-crash/


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    #1777
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    DamagedTrax wrote: »
    possibly more metaphorical 'WMDs'... possibly not.

    That would have to ignore separatists in the area that have shot down a number of planes previous to this. Only ones in the are that have been doing this. Ukrainians have no reason to shoot planes down as separatists have no planes, And the Ukraine is weary of shooting down a Russian plane by accident. That would give Russia the reason it needs to invade fully.


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    #1778
    KahBoom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭KahBoom


    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    Well the people who are connected to the Russians controlled the area, they arrived on the scene and weren't exactly welcoming to others and then Russia makes no attempt to prove this claims wrong. Russia is keeping a very close watch on Ukraine, if something happened they would have something to show they werent involves or who was.
    That doesn't prove anything - judging by the claims from both sides, both rebels and Ukrainian forces were in the area - what is needed is proof of who shot down the airline, not speculation based on who was around.


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    #1779
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    That would have to ignore separatists in the area that have shot down a number of planes previous to this. Only ones in the are that have been doing this. Ukrainians have no reason to shoot planes down as separatists have no planes, And the Ukraine is weary of shooting down a Russian plane by accident. That would give Russia the reason it needs to invade fully.


    i agree 100%. what you say makes perfect sense to me and i really hope you're right but judging on previous, there is also every possibility that it was western involvement and that makes perfect sense to me too.

    two theories, equally as likely in my mind. only proof can seperate them.

    and as we were talking theory a few posts ago, what we have here is schrondinger's cat if anything.


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    #1780
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    DamagedTrax wrote: »
    i agree 100%. what you say makes perfect sense to me and i really hope you're right but judging on previous, there is also every possibility that it was western involvement and that makes perfect sense to me too.

    two theories, equally as likely in my mind. only proof can seperate them.

    and as we were talking theory a few posts ago, what we have here is schrondinger's cat if anything.

    Well to be fair the only ones hiding stuff and destroying evidence are the separatists. Unless you take the word of carlos the air traffic controller.


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    #1781
    KahBoom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭KahBoom


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Well to be fair the only ones hiding stuff and destroying evidence are the separatists. Unless you take the word of carlos the air traffic controller.
    If that is true, it doesn't prove anything, and given the current quality of evidence/facts on this topic, I doubt even that fact itself can be proven.


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    #1782
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Well to be fair the only ones hiding stuff and destroying evidence are the separatists. Unless you take the word of carlos the air traffic controller.

    once again, im not taking anyones word on it.. not russia's, not ukraine's and not america's.

    all these countries are run by multi-billionaire sociopaths. im not sure any of us should be taking any of their words on it.

    what we will eventually be told happened (from either side) and what really happened will be two very different things.


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    #1783
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    DamagedTrax wrote: »
    once again, im not taking anyones word on it.. not russia's, not ukraine's and not america's.

    all these countries are run by multi-billionaire sociopaths. im not sure any of us should be taking any of their words on it.

    what we will eventually be told happened (from either side) and what really happened will be two very different things.

    True but the Netherlands would not be talking about sending armed personnel to secure the site, If there was not a systematic and deliberate destruction of evidence by the separatists.


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    #1784
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    True but the Netherlands would not be talking about sending armed personnel to secure the site, If there was not a systematic and deliberate destruction of evidence by the separatists.

    it was reported as unarmed.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0725/632977-mh17/


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    #1785
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    DamagedTrax wrote: »
    it was reported as unarmed.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0725/632977-mh17/

    http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2014/07/dutch_to_decide_this_weekend_o.php

    Aus and NL thinking of sending special ops, So commandos for NL and the Aus SAS i would imagine. Aus may call them ahem police as they don't generally advertise were they send them.


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    #1786
    WakeUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,823 ✭✭✭WakeUp


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Occam's razor no need for elaborate explanations.

    Yeah about that. I've often seen Occam's razor cited in one way or another to somehow explain or not explain something in question though you need to be careful where you apply it and in what context. It's cited sometimes in a stronger form than it should be for example - the simpler explanation for something is more likely to be true than more complicated scenarios or whatever - this is not always the case. Occam's razor was probably influenced by Aristotle - nature operates in the shortest way possible -. Billy was an advocate of nominalism which is opposed by realism. When discussing something from a metaphysical/ scientific point of view or something like that then occams razor sure though at it's base form it's a principle - entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily - in a case of "who did it" like in this case, I'm not so sure it can be posited as a case for/not for anything really. simplicity is subjective only evidence is absolute. that which is real. sry dont mean to go off on a waffle or take the thread off topic and I'm not saying whos right or wrong just Occam's razor should only be applied in the right circumstance and not for everything that has two or more competing theories especially in a case of who done it . it should never be replied upon solely to make or defend a conclusion.


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    #1787
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    WakeUp wrote: »
    Yeah about that. I've often ... or defend a conclusion.

    as i said earlier to him, solomonoff's theory of inductive inference would be better, if not long winded (only as i understand how it works, im no scholar on it). or shrodingers cat works well too.


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    #1788
    loughside
    Registered Users Posts: 497 ✭✭loughside


    loughside wrote: »
    Hey, kremlin disciples, yer aul mate in Moscow Mikhail Gorbachev seems to know where responsibility lies..,

    bit of a bummer for the putinbots...all that effort for nothing

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/russian-newspaper-seemingly-blames-kremlin-downed-malaysia-airlines-jet-article-1.1879912
    Novaya Gazeta - which is partly owned by former Soviet Union President Mikhail Gorbachev - featured a front-page photograph of hearses transporting the bodies of Dutch citizens killed in the crash with the headline, 'Forgive us, Netherlands.'


    Well Putinites, no comment for us on Gorbachevs paper headlining "Forgive us, Netherlands" ??? !!!

    Lost your collective tongues on this one?? LOL!!

    No one would ask for forgiveness if they weren`t guilty in the first place.

    C`mon guys, lets hear your explanations for this??


    *waiting patiently*


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    #1789
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    loughside wrote: »
    Well Putinites, no comment for us on Gorbachevs paper headlining "Forgive us, Netherlands" ??? !!!

    Lost your collective tongues on this one?? LOL!!

    No one would ask for forgiveness if they weren`t guilty in the first place.

    C`mon guys, lets hear your explanations for this??


    *waiting patiently*

    you got your answer a few pages back. as the poster said, read the first line of the article and it becomes clear. EVERYONE has their agenda.


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    #1790
    grols
    Registered Users Posts: 13 ✭grols


    loughside wrote: »
    Well Putinites, no comment for us on Gorbachevs paper headlining "Forgive us, Netherlands" ??? !!!

    Lost your collective tongues on this one?? LOL!!

    No one would ask for forgiveness if they weren`t guilty in the first place.

    C`mon guys, lets hear your explanations for this??


    *waiting patiently*


    Yes!
    Also looking forward


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    #1791
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,455 ✭✭✭weisses


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2014/07/dutch_to_decide_this_weekend_o.php

    Aus and NL thinking of sending special ops, So commandos for NL and the Aus SAS i would imagine. Aus may call them ahem police as they don't generally advertise were they send them.

    Irony is that dutch special forces are secureIng the crashsite in Mali


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    #1792
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    weisses wrote: »
    Irony is that dutch special forces are secureIng the crashsite in Mali

    just sayin...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Bilderberg_participants#Netherlands


    *ducks for cover*


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    #1793
    loughside
    Registered Users Posts: 497 ✭✭loughside


    grols wrote: »
    Yes!
    Also looking forward

    The silence is indeed deafening


    Putinbots hit by friendly fire i guess


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    #1794
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    loughside wrote: »
    The silence is indeed deafening


    Putinbots hit by friendly fire i guess

    seriously, are you having trouble reading? twice its been answered now. one just a few posts above here by myself ;)


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    #1795
    jimeryan22
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭jimeryan22


    loughside wrote: »
    The silence is indeed deafening


    Putinbots hit by friendly fire i guess


    Erm
    Putinbots...
    What are you..? A klitchbot..?
    Punch drunk.. Sure he'll make a great politician... Victoria nuland thought so


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    #1796
    smurfjed
    Registered Users Posts: 10,165 ✭✭✭✭smurfjed


    What about a bomb on board? Would that not have the same effect? Why isnt a bomb part of the possibilties?
    Just to answer this, a bomb would have an outbound ballistic impact. The present fuselage photographs show inbound on one side and outbound on the other, in a scattered piercing manner rather than a single point.


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    #1797
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    smurfjed wrote: »
    Just to answer this, a bomb would have an outbound ballistic impact. The present fuselage photographs show inbound on one side and outbound on the other, in a scattered piercing manner rather than a single point.

    Yup, Explosive decompression from a bomb on-board would peel outwards. An explosion outside would push that side inwards and into the other side depending on where it hits. So you would expect to find pieces of one side embedded or passed through the other side.


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    #1798
    loughside
    Registered Users Posts: 497 ✭✭loughside


    DamagedTrax wrote: »
    seriously, are you having trouble reading? twice its been answered now. one just a few posts above here by myself ;)

    sorry this is giving you so much torment, but.,... here`s the front page article again, maybe you can expand on your `answer` for us fick people??

    The Russian newspaper Novaya Gazeta has dedicated its front page today to an apology to the Netherlands for the Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash, in which 193 Dutch citizens were killed.



    The poignant cover features the headline “Forgive us, Netherlands”, written in Dutch as “Vergeef ons, Nederlands" and translated into Russian below. The image, occupying the whole of the page, shows a procession of hearses carrying the coffins of victims.
    The picture was taken as the first bodies recovered from the crash site were transported to a military barracks in Holland on Wednesday for identification after a solemn ceremony at Eindhoven Airport.
    Novaya Gazeta was established by Mikhail Gorbachev, the former leader of the Soviet Union, who used money he received from him his 1990 Nobel Prize to part fund the publication in 1993.


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    #1799
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    first line under the headline and sub
    A Russian newspaper that has long been a critic of the Kremlin appeared to blame Moscow for the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 in Ukraine.

    see, there's always an agenda. after that they could claim anything they like for all its worth to the truth.


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    #1800
    loughside
    Registered Users Posts: 497 ✭✭loughside


    Would have thought it would be a very dangerous agenda to pursue if there was no truth in it.

    This is a popular Russian newspaper basically saying the Kremlin was to blame and they were offering an apology on behalf of the russian people.

    Aren`t they out on a limb with this considering four of its journalists have been murdered since 2001 including Anna Politkovskaya, a virulent critic of the government and high-profile human rights activist who was shot dead in 2006?


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    #1801
    jimeryan22
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭jimeryan22


    loughside wrote: »
    Would have thought it would be a very dangerous agenda to pursue if there was no truth in it.

    This is a popular Russian newspaper basically saying the Kremlin was to blame and they were offering an apology on behalf of the russian people.

    Aren`t they out on a limb with this considering four of its journalists have been murdered since 2001 including Anna Politkovskaya, a virulent critic of the government and high-profile human rights activist who was shot dead in 2006?

    So all Russian news according to you is state run bar this article because it suits your argument..?


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