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Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread
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Still at it. Fair play to you all.
And I do mean all. More than one egg methinks.
'Clearing house' How does that work? I'm sure you have experience of such things, do tell.
A clearing house....it's an industry term.
You write something...it's read by others...most likely seniors.
Then they bat it down and tell you to go back to making the tea for another year in the editor's office.0 -
jimeryan22 wrote: »I'll take it as a stripe on my arm. Considering some idiot thought I was making light of dead people being stripped of their things and dignity..
Always ones like you stick in their pennies worth too ain't there..?
jimeryan22....SSSShhh.
Calm down.0 -
I know how wikipedia works. My post was directed at Mr/Mrs eggs and his team.
If your post is directed at me then you should know that while Wikipedia is a cheap and cheerful way of getting some steady facts such as ones that are pretty carved in granite..e.g. "what is the capital of Australia?" ..then fine. Were you to use such a source for anything more comprehensive...perhaps in a university debate, you would be laughed at, and escorted out.0 -
miss tickle wrote: »Just to give a bit of perspective, I suggest you read this article
It outlines the length people in the surrounding villages have gone to to try and preserve the scene, gather bodies and store the belongings they find, without any help from the government.aloyisious wrote: »There's one thing I've noted lately about the Irish media reporting on the plane, they all seem to be referring to it as a crash. It's almost like they are in denial about the fact that the plane exploded at 32,000 and killed all the crew and passengers, that the Irish media think the plane exploded on coming into contact with the ground during a landing., and that it was NOT due to a ground-to-air missile hitting it.
It would seem that Irish media is as bereft of facts as the rest of us.
Hence their not stating something about which they are unsure.
A week and a half after the event and I still have seen no proof of Russian involvement, Novorussian involvement, Ukrainian involvement,,,,,any involvement except proofless fingerpointing.
When will there be evidence of the allegations levelled by John Kerry? A man who stated he had definitive proof as to who the culpable parties were.
When can the world expect this proof?0 -
I might remind you that in order to fraudulently use someone's credit card you do NOT need the card.
One does not need to scavange around a crash site looking for bits of plastic.
It could be a good point on the credit card, but why go to the extent of creating false credit card when its easy pickings from the dead. Bit of a coincidence them fraudulently being used in the Ukraine.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2703704/MH17-victims-wife-forced-cancel-credit-cards-theyre-USED-pro-Russian-rebels-accused-answering-mobile-phones-stealing-jewellery-crash-site.html
Oh and I suppose the mobile phones grew legs and walked away themselves, maybe they switch themselves on as well.
http://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-looting-confirmed-victims-phones-answered-by-strangers-relatives-say-20140723-zw6uo.html
Why do you think the Australian Prime Minister is so vocal about bringing the victims home, the families are distraught that their loved ones are being interfered with.
People like you who are denying this behavior is happening are basically condoning it.0 -
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Personally I see the scene where the plane came down as a grave, and anyone interfering-with the scene or removing items from it (outside those acting with the permission of the grieving relatives) as grave-robbers, thieves of the utmost worthlessness and depravity. As for evidence-gathering. I have to recognize the scene as extremely contaminated due to the deliberate actions of the Separatists in interfering with the dead, their property and the aircraft. Each of the acts above stand alone as criminal acts, regardless of the de-facto forces controlling the area where the aircraft parts fell. Those forces presumably have the same thoughts of the separatists of 1916 here with regard to rapine, as mentioned in the proclamation of independence.
A basic act of humanity would have been for the DFF to have arranged full co-operation with the nations of the dead, and to take basic scene-protection steps. Fence/tape off the scene, place sheeting over the dead and their remains, and keep drunks away from the area.0 -
Preliminary black box info now reported.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10995452/MH17-probe-shows-crash-caused-by-massive-explosive-decompression.html
More comprehensive info should be reported by the end of the week.0 -
mandrake04 wrote: »People like you who are denying this behavior is happening are basically condoning it.
Very true. That`s what our resident apologist for murder is on this thread for, to deny the undeniable, to cast doubt, to muddy the waters - an old and worn out Kremlin propaganda trick used in times like this.
Yes, of course the credit cards, personal items have been stolen, see this South African ladys story..
Haven't they suffered enough? Now MH17 victim's wife is forced to cancel his credit cards because they were being USED by thieving pro-Russian rebels- South African helicopter pilot and father of two killed in MH17 tragedy
- Cameron Dalziel's wife forced to cancel his credit cards
- His brother-in-law says they've been used in Ukraine since crash
- Families tell of their shock after hearing strangers' voices on mobile phones
- UK intelligence chiefs 'uncover evidence rebels planned to sabotage scene'
- Separatists 'considered scattering parts from other planes among debris'
- Rebel commander 'issues decree that proves militants are looting victims'
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2703704/MH17-victims-wife-forced-cancel-credit-cards-theyre-USED-pro-Russian-rebels-accused-answering-mobile-phones-stealing-jewellery-crash-site.html#ixzz38mFg6BuI0 -
Only seen about these earlier while looking up stuff about this latest plane shootdown..
Crazy stuff
Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 was a commercial flight shot down by the Ukrainian military over the Black Sea on 4 October 2001, en route from Tel Aviv, Israel to Novosibirsk, Russia. The plane, a Soviet-made Tupolev Tu-154, carried an estimated 66 passengers and 12 crew members. Most of the passengers were Israelis visiting relatives in Russia. No one on board survived. The crash site is some 190 km west-southwest of the Black Sea resort of Sochi and 140 km north of the Turkish coastal town of Fatsa and 350 km south-southeast of Feodosiya in Crimea. Ukraine eventually admitted that the disaster was probably caused by an errant missile fired by its armed forces.[1] Ukraine ended up paying $15 million to surviving family members of 78 victims ($200,000 per victim).
And this..
Iran Air Flight 655 was an Iran Air civilian passenger flight from Tehran to Dubai that was shot down by the United States Navy guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes on 3 July 1988. The incident took place in Iranian airspace, over Iran's territorial waters in the Persian Gulf, and on the flight's usual flight path. The aircraft, an Airbus A300 B2-203, was destroyed by SM-2MR surface-to-air missiles fired from the Vincennes.
Had never heard of either, till just now..0 -
mandrake04 wrote: »It could be a good point on the credit card, but why go to the extent of creating false credit card when its easy pickings from the dead. Bit of a coincidence them fraudulently being used in the Ukraine.
Oh and I suppose the mobile phones grew legs and walked away themselves, maybe they switch themselves on as well.
Why do you think the Australian Prime Minister is so vocal about bringing the victims home, the families are distraught that their loved ones are being interfered with.
People like you who are denying this behavior is happening are basically condoning it.
I'm not condoning it mandrake but we got the same disgusting accusations in the aftermath of the Hillsborough disaster. Rumours were spread, by tabloid muckrakers and the South Yorkshire Police that liverpool supporters were stealing from the corpses. Accusations that were later proven false but painted these people in a dreadful light and turned a lot of public opinion against people who while may have been working class, rough and ready, etc were not the scum of the earth they were portrayed to be.0 -
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I'm not condoning it mandrake but we got the same disgusting accusations in the aftermath of the Hillsborough disaster. Rumours were spread, by tabloid muckrakers and the South Yorkshire Police that liverpool supporters were stealing from the corpses. Accusations that were later proven false but painted these people in a dreadful light and turned a lot of public opinion against people who while may have been working class, rough and ready, etc were not the scum of the earth they were portrayed to be.
Got it.
So passengers got up and started using their credit cards in Ukraine then.
Right so. Case closed.0 -
Sadly, tampering with / stealing from crash sites isn't a unique event. It probably happens more often that we'd think. Below is an extract concerning a (previously mentioned) Peruvian flight that crashed back in 2005.The Peruvian government began an investigation, but it was hampered by looters who descended immediately upon the crash site, even as the survivors were making their way to safety.
Glenn: Some people just walked past us and they were walking to the crash site. I found out later on that they were looters, that they took thing from the crash site, that they sold them.
It was a free-for-all after the crash. Villagers even sold drinks and food to the looters who raided the site, even as soldiers stood by. For days the crash site remained unsecured. Locals here sifted through rubble, looking for valuable and metal.
One man told "Dateline" he heard there was a reward for the black box. In fact, he was too late: Investigators had already paid the equivalent of $500 to a villager they’d tracked down who had taken it from the site.
Some men were taking apart one of the plane’s engines, taking it to their homes, and some are taking to sell. One looter told "Dateline" he would get the equivalent of a dollar for two pounds of scrap metal. People waded into the fetid mix of gasoline, mud and deteriorating human remains.
Glenn: Honestly I’m not quite what disturbs me more. The fact that a plane crashed, or the fact that people went to pick up remains from the plane?
Source0 -
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I'm not condoning it mandrake but we got the same disgusting accusations in the aftermath of the Hillsborough disaster. Rumours were spread, by tabloid muckrakers and the South Yorkshire Police that liverpool supporters were stealing from the corpses. Accusations that were later proven false but painted these people in a dreadful light and turned a lot of public opinion against people who while may have been working class, rough and ready, etc were not the scum of the earth they were portrayed to be.
Well you certainly didn't condemn it and I'll quote you on itGalwayguy35 wrote: »Saw an article today about a woman who lives near the crash site showing off mascara that she said was given to her by a Pro Russian Separatist who robbed it from the body of one of the victims and relatives ringing the passengers phones and strangers answering them.
What kind of people live in that place, no respect for the dead.
Do you know if the story is TRUE?
If so what's the big deal? Makeup from a bag....well whoopie.
Not like she went sound with a pliers
Seems to be all good in your book so that gives us a good indication of the sort of person you are.
I doubt this is tabloid muckraking, we can all see on the TV these animals trampling through the wreckage rifling through belongings. Many journalist have reported empty wallets and laptop bags. Any valuables left behind are broken or damaged by the crash. I'm sure there are a few decent local Ukrainians like one or two of the reports have indicated try to help but there are many pictures of Militia and civilians elbow deep in bags and luggage.
Unless of course you claim that all this is a conspiracy filmed in the same studio as the moon landings, next you will be deneying the Holocaust and that it was made up to make the Nazis look like a bad bunch of lads.0 -
listermint wrote: »Got it.
So passengers got up and started using their credit cards in Ukraine then.
Right so. Case closed.
There's no need to be flippant and certainly you don't have the authority so simply quip "case closed"
Only an ignorant man would state such a thing.
We seem to have proof about corpse-robbing, allegedly, from a few British tabloids, yet we still don't have any definitive evidence of those who actually are supposed to have killed all these people. I would think that ascertaining the knolwledge of the killers rather than concentrating on a bunch of thieves would be more important and certainly more worthy of a discussion.
It appears now that those responsible for these deaths have taken a back seat to those who are handling the bodies badly, or not adhering to our Western norms.0 -
mandrake04 wrote: »Well you certainly didn't condemn it and I'll quote you on it
Seems to be all good in your book so that gives us a good indication of the sort of person you are.
I doubt this is tabloid muckraking, we can all see on the TV these animals trampling through the wreckage rifling through belongings. Many journalist have reported empty wallets and laptop bags. Any valuables left behind are broken or damaged by the crash. I'm sure there are a few decent local Ukrainians like one or two of the reports have indicated try to help but there are many pictures of Militia and civilians elbow deep in bags and luggage.
Unless of course you claim that all this is a conspiracy filmed in the same studio as the moon landings, next you will be deneying the Holocaust and that it was made up to make the Nazis look like a bad bunch of lads.
Moon Landings, Holocaust, Nazis, conspiracies, ?
I think I might just leave it there. Most certainly with you, Mandrake.0 -
But I'll leave you with this very simple question:
When can we...all of us..see some proof of the accusations that have been made since this aircraft went down?
I'm still waiting.0 -
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mandrake04 wrote: »I think most people would agree that they are one and the same.
Time will tell if your thoughts prove correct. Thus far, however, they have been nothing but blind and skewed speculation.0 -
This isn't a Condolences thread, it's a thread about a large and significant breaking news story of which any solid facts have yet to be established and evidence via social media, be it real or fake, is slowly piecing together the pieces of this jig saw.
It goes without saying this is a tragedy of epic proportions and that almost 300 innocent people have lost their lives this afternoon is the main theme throughout the 20-odd pages of this thread.
People, myself included, are following this thread as well as many other sources to try to understand the gravity of what has happened. One of the strengths of this forum IMO during such global news stories.
If it's not to your taste, don't bother reading it.
Did a search for "condolences" on this thread a and it's only been used three times, once in the above post. I searched because in all the Irish reports I've seen on this, I haven't seen so much as a comment, much less sympathy. I searched because this thread is full of blame and retribution and I had hoped to find more than "I know more about air crash investigation than you"- wtf?
Last Wednesday was a scorcher here in Eindhoven. I sat in my back garden with my husband at 3:30 pm in total silence and watched the planes come in. We live in neighbourhood with a lot of children, usually there is shouting and screaming and bicycle bells and arguments over keepy uppys etc but last Wednesday was eerily quiet. When we couldn't see the planes any longer we turned on the TV to watch the ceremony. We sat for what seemed like hours observing the silence and endless coffins streaming from planes. We cried at the thought of the wasted lives of people just like us. This strange procession continued on Thursday and Friday, and on Friday evening we knew to expect noise from large aircraft returning to attempt to protect those trying to make some sense of the last moments of those lives.
I will never forget the faces of the soldiers, young and old, carrying the innocent dead from the heinous disrespect they had received to the waiting arms of our country. The hearses it seemed would never stop coming. Many went to the airport, many lined the motorway which was closed from Meerhoven to Hilversum. Florists ran out of white roses, which they were selling at cost that day.
Earlier in the day we had gone to city hall to sign the book of condolence, which was just that. I had expected anger and retribution, but it was full of messages of grief, love and sympathy for family and friends. This is something that has been echoed through the whole country, in the news and in the community. While the population here is high, it's still a small country and we know few people with more than 3 degrees of separation from the victims. I realised last week that this is my country now, when those amongst my Irish friends and family liked and shared horrific images of the Gaza crisis and called for a World War on Israel yet ignored totally the grief on their doorstep. I'm not belittling the Palestine crisis, what's happening there is heinous and nothing short of genocide but I don't think it needs to be a choice between calling for the Irish government to impose sanctions on Israel and calling on the Irish government to demand that the desecration and destruction of the crash site in the Ukraine stop immediately. I just don't understand why you are all so hell bent on finding someone to blame, yet don't even contemplate extending any sympathy to those actually affected by this.
I don't care who you are and if you are the self professed national Irish expert on ground to air missiles taking down passenger planes. I'm just glad you're not in charge of repatriating these poor people, and those people from Malaysia, Germany, NZ, Australia, Britain etc. The gravity of what has happened is just that. People who were killed on their way to work, home, holidays. Not a tragedy by nature but a travesty, not over, and not helped by this armchair investigation.0 -
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denhaagenite wrote: »Did a search for "condolences" on this thread a and it's only been used three times, once in the above post. I searched because in all the Irish reports I've seen on this, I haven't seen so much as a comment, much less sympathy. I searched because this thread is full of blame and retribution and I had hoped to find more than "I know more about air crash investigation than you"- wtf?
Last Wednesday was a scorcher here in Eindhoven. I sat in my back garden with my husband at 3:30 pm in total silence and watched the planes come in. We live in neighbourhood with a lot of children, usually there is shouting and screaming and bicycle bells and arguments over keepy uppys etc but last Wednesday was eerily quiet. When we couldn't see the planes any longer we turned on the TV to watch the ceremony. We sat for what seemed like hours observing the silence and endless coffins streaming from planes. We cried at the thought of the wasted lives of people just like us. This strange procession continued on Thursday and Friday, and on Friday evening we knew to expect noise from large aircraft returning to attempt to protect those trying to make some sense of the last moments of those lives.
I will never forget the faces of the soldiers, young and old, carrying the innocent dead from the heinous disrespect they had received to the waiting arms of our country. The hearses it seemed would never stop coming. Many went to the airport, many lined the motorway which was closed from Meerhoven to Hilversum. Florists ran out of white roses, which they were selling at cost that day.
Earlier in the day we had gone to city hall to sign the book of condolence, which was just that. I had expected anger and retribution, but it was full of messages of grief, love and sympathy for family and friends. This is something that has been echoed through the whole country, in the news and in the community. While the population here is high, it's still a small country and we know few people with more than 3 degrees of separation from the victims. I realised last week that this is my country now, when those amongst my Irish friends and family liked and shared horrific images of the Gaza crisis and called for a World War on Israel yet ignored totally the grief on their doorstep. I'm not belittling the Palestine crisis, what's happening there is heinous and nothing short of genocide but I don't think it needs to be a choice between calling for the Irish government to impose sanctions on Israel and calling on the Irish government to demand that the desecration and destruction of the crash site in the Ukraine stop immediately. I just don't understand why you are all so hell bent on finding someone to blame, yet don't even contemplate extending any sympathy to those actually affected by this.
I don't care who you are and if you are the self professed national Irish expert on ground to air missiles taking down passenger planes. I'm just glad you're not in charge of repatriating these poor people, and those people from Malaysia, Germany, NZ, Australia, Britain etc. The gravity of what has happened is just that. People who were killed on their way to work, home, holidays. Not a tragedy by nature but a travesty, not over, and not helped by this armchair investigation.
Very well said Denhaaganite. On my part I send you sincere apologies for not offering condolences in a more fulsome manner. I have truly been appalled by this massacre. My own 19 year old daughter is flitting hither and yon on planes these days all over Europe and further afield which brings home air travel to me all the more, and it is unthinkable that these poor people were shot out of the sky as they were. And it has been moving for such a small country to bear such a burden of grief with such dignity. I was working as a chamber maid in a Dublin hotel when the relatives of the Air India disaster descended in their grieving droves to wait for any news of bodies and I will never forget those weeks cleaning rooms around whole villages (it seemed) who were mute with confusion and grief. Condolences to all the families and friends of the passengers and crew on MH17. May they rest in peace.0 -
Thank you for your condolences, and thank you for now giving me the opportunity to convey condolences from Ireland. I was days old when the Air India disaster happened and my father was called in to work back to back shifts as a nurse in the Regional Hospital at the time. Every time I'm in CUH now I go to the beautiful picture gifted to them by the Indian Government in the aftermath just to pay my respects to the dead.0
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Heard on the news Russia condemning Ukraine firing over their board in the East Into their sovereign territory no less. Does that mean Russia have stopped sending armed militants over then and closed it off so no one can just enter Ukraine ? Seems a little hypocritical.0
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So you won't condemn Ukraine for firing missiles into Russian territory. Seems a little hypocritical.0
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denhaagenite wrote: »Did a search for "condolences" on this thread a and it's only been used three times, once in the above post. I searched because in all the Irish reports I've seen on this, I haven't seen so much as a comment, much less sympathy. I searched because this thread is full of blame and retribution and I had hoped to find more than "I know more about air crash investigation than you"- wtf?
Last Wednesday was a scorcher here in Eindhoven. I sat in my back garden with my husband at 3:30 pm in total silence and watched the planes come in. We live in neighbourhood with a lot of children, usually there is shouting and screaming and bicycle bells and arguments over keepy uppys etc but last Wednesday was eerily quiet. When we couldn't see the planes any longer we turned on the TV to watch the ceremony. We sat for what seemed like hours observing the silence and endless coffins streaming from planes. We cried at the thought of the wasted lives of people just like us. This strange procession continued on Thursday and Friday, and on Friday evening we knew to expect noise from large aircraft returning to attempt to protect those trying to make some sense of the last moments of those lives.
I will never forget the faces of the soldiers, young and old, carrying the innocent dead from the heinous disrespect they had received to the waiting arms of our country. The hearses it seemed would never stop coming. Many went to the airport, many lined the motorway which was closed from Meerhoven to Hilversum. Florists ran out of white roses, which they were selling at cost that day.
Earlier in the day we had gone to city hall to sign the book of condolence, which was just that. I had expected anger and retribution, but it was full of messages of grief, love and sympathy for family and friends. This is something that has been echoed through the whole country, in the news and in the community. While the population here is high, it's still a small country and we know few people with more than 3 degrees of separation from the victims. I realised last week that this is my country now, when those amongst my Irish friends and family liked and shared horrific images of the Gaza crisis and called for a World War on Israel yet ignored totally the grief on their doorstep. I'm not belittling the Palestine crisis, what's happening there is heinous and nothing short of genocide but I don't think it needs to be a choice between calling for the Irish government to impose sanctions on Israel and calling on the Irish government to demand that the desecration and destruction of the crash site in the Ukraine stop immediately. I just don't understand why you are all so hell bent on finding someone to blame, yet don't even contemplate extending any sympathy to those actually affected by this.
I don't care who you are and if you are the self professed national Irish expert on ground to air missiles taking down passenger planes. I'm just glad you're not in charge of repatriating these poor people, and those people from Malaysia, Germany, NZ, Australia, Britain etc. The gravity of what has happened is just that. People who were killed on their way to work, home, holidays. Not a tragedy by nature but a travesty, not over, and not helped by this armchair investigation.
If you think boards.ie is bad in this regard, don't go near politics.ie
It's a complete sewer lately. Non existent moderation, and the 'mods' there tend to be some of the worst trolls on the site.0 -
Try to keep up with the news, the russian army have been shelling the ukraine army for two weeks now..
The Russian army is shelling Ukraine border guards from its territory, says military expert Dmytro Tymchuk July 20.
Ukraine army positions were shelled by Grad missile batteries fire in Oleksandrivsk, by tank fire in Marynivka, he wrote in Facebook.
At night, Ukraine army units were shelled by mortars two times from the Russian territory, Tymchuk said.
http://zik.ua/en/news/2014/07/20/tymchuk_russia_shelling_border_guards_from_its_territory_507400
not only are they doing that but the terrorists are shelling the plane site - scum of the earth..
The Donbas terrorists are shelling the site of the Boeing 777 crash not to let international experts and destroy evidence, NDSC spokesman Andry Lysenko said, Ukrinform reported July 29.
For this reason, many international experts have refused to get to the spot, citing threat to lives.
“The terrorists are shelling the site using artillery and mortars – to destroy all evidence,” the official said.
Ukraine army in the area was issued orders not to conduct any military operations, he said.0 -
mickmackey1 wrote: »So you won't condemn Ukraine for firing missiles into Russian territory. Seems a little hypocritical.
I don't think Grenades and AK fire counts as Missiles. I would hesitate to say it's the rebels running back over the boarder causing the problem. Ukrainian forces returning fire over the boarder. The Russians have no problem sending men and material over their boarder into Ukraine sovereign territory.0 -
mandrake04 wrote: »I think most people would agree that they are one and the same.
And how do you know? You have no idea who caused this crash....none. No proof, no evidence, nothing. Just a plethora of spurious hunches and baseless claims. You even have the audacity to speak for others as if "the majority" have furnished you with the aforementioned proof. But you don't even stop there. You have absolutely no idea who is responsible for thefts at the crash site. Again, no clue. But you are simply stating as if fact that one group about which you have no clue is the same other group or elements therein about which you equally have no clue.0 -
Try to keep up with the news, the russian army have been shelling the ukraine army for two weeks now..
The Russian army is shelling Ukraine border guards from its territory, says military expert Dmytro Tymchuk July 20.
Ukraine army positions were shelled by Grad missile batteries fire in Oleksandrivsk, by tank fire in Marynivka, he wrote in Facebook.
At night, Ukraine army units were shelled by mortars two times from the Russian territory, Tymchuk said.
not only are they doing that but the terrorists are shelling the plane site - scum of the earth..
The Donbas terrorists are shelling the site of the Boeing 777 crash not to let international experts and destroy evidence, NDSC spokesman Andry Lysenko said, Ukrinform reported July 29.
For this reason, many international experts have refused to get to the spot, citing threat to lives.
“The terrorists are shelling the site using artillery and mortars – to destroy all evidence,” the official said.
Ukraine army in the area was issued orders not to conduct any military operations, he said.
Do you have any more reliable source for this than a Facebook page?
The guesswork is getting difficult to keep up with.
Shelling the crash site? Shelling Ukrainian border positions? Where is the proof?
We wouldn't need to have ANY speculation if the US simply reealed the proof they say they have.
How difficult can it be to show the proof you say you have and hence implicate those you say are guilty?0 -
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darkpagandeath wrote: »I don't think Grenades and AK fire counts as Missiles. I would hesitate to say it's the rebels running back over the boarder causing the problem. Ukrainian forces returning fire over the boarder. The Russians have no problem sending men and material over their boarder into Ukraine sovereign territory.
What's your take on aircraft violating the airspace of another sovereign state?
Is a grenade less of declaration of hostile intent than say a bomber strike or a tank invasion?0
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