Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

mandrake04

Egginacup wrote: »

And how do you know? You have no idea who caused this crash....none. No proof, no evidence, nothing. Just a plethora of spurious hunches and baseless claims. You even have the audacity to speak for others as if "the majority" have furnished you with the aforementioned proof. But you don't even stop there. You have absolutely no idea who is responsible for thefts at the crash site. Again, no clue. But you are simply stating as if fact that one group about which you have no clue is the same other group or elements therein about which you equally have no clue.

You already replied to this post in #1943, did you not get the reaction you wanted then?

How come you registered just to comment troll on this thread? Just to get a kick from offending people by condoning robbing the dead?

If you put a bunch of Ukrainians, Russians, Novarussians or whatever in a line up I couldn't tell the difference to me they are all the same. So I'm not bothered by what politics the perpetrators follow, they are still murdererous bastards.

Egginacup

mandrake04 wrote: »

You already replied to this post in #1943, did you not get the reaction you wanted then?

How come you registered just to comment troll on this thread? Just to get a kick from offending people by condoning robbing the dead?

If you put a bunch of Ukrainians, Russians, Novarussians or whatever in a line up I couldn't tell the difference to me they are all the same. So I'm not bothered by what politics the perpetrators follow, they are still murdererous bastards.

Thank you for clarifying.

darkpagandeath

Egginacup wrote: »

What's your take on aircraft violating the airspace of another sovereign state?
Is a grenade less of declaration of hostile intent than say a bomber strike or a tank invasion?

Well is this the reason your giving for a passenger plane being shot down ? And for you second points shooting down civilian planes is a declaration of hostilities.

Nonamigo

loughside wrote: »

Try to keep up with the news, the russian army have been shelling the ukraine army for two weeks now..

The Russian army is shelling Ukraine border guards from its territory, says military expert Dmytro Tymchuk July 20.

Ukraine army positions were shelled by Grad missile batteries fire in Oleksandrivsk, by tank fire in Marynivka, he wrote in Facebook.
At night, Ukraine army units were shelled by mortars two times from the Russian territory, Tymchuk said.
http://zik.ua/en/news/2014/07/20/tymchuk_russia_shelling_border_guards_from_its_territory_507400


not only are they doing that but the terrorists are shelling the plane site - scum of the earth..


The Donbas terrorists are shelling the site of the Boeing 777 crash not to let international experts and destroy evidence, NDSC spokesman Andry Lysenko said, Ukrinform reported July 29.

For this reason, many international experts have refused to get to the spot, citing threat to lives.
“The terrorists are shelling the site using artillery and mortars – to destroy all evidence,” the official said.
Ukraine army in the area was issued orders not to conduct any military operations, he said.

Strange. Just today I read the exact opposite. Ukrainian military were shelling the crash site. Don't have the link but will post it if I come across it.

loughside

Nonamigo wrote: »

Strange. Just today I read the exact opposite. Ukrainian military were shelling the crash site. Don't have the link but will post it if I come across it.

Aahh, that elusive link !!

Well here`s another one for you to be going on with ..
Ukraine official: Rebels lay mines near crash site

By DIMA LOVETSKY

Associated Press

DONETSK, Ukraine -- International observers turned back Wednesday after making another attempt to reach the site where Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 went down in eastern Ukraine, and a government official said the area near the zone had been mined by pro-Russian separatists who control it.
Observers from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe set out Wednesday in two vehicles — without frustrated crash investigators from the Netherlands who have been trying to reach the site for four days.
But the OSCE observers turned back to the city of Donetsk after discussions with rebels.
Safety concerns and hindrance from the separatists who control the area have kept the investigation team away. Foreign governments whose citizens died have complained the site is not secured and some human remains have not been recovered.
Government security spokesman Andriy Lysenko added to those concerns Wednesday by saying separatists "have mined the approaches to this area. This makes the work of the international experts impossible."


Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2014/07/30/4262281/officials-19-dead-in-e-ukraine.html#storylink=cpy

just when you thought these kremlin terrorists couldn`t stoop any lower

loughside

Fair play to Jason M`Cue, we wish you every success
The lawyer who took the Omagh bomb case into the civil courts is planning legal action against Vladimir Putin for his alleged role in the shooting down of the Malaysian Airlines passenger jet.

A spokesman for McCue & Partners said in a statement: "There has been talk of civil suits against Malaysian Airlines, but those immediately responsible are not only the separatists who are alleged to have fired the rocket at Flight MH17, causing the death of hundreds of innocent victims, but those, be they states, individuals or other entities, who provided them with financial and material support and the means to do so.
"Our team is presently liaising and working with partners in Ukraine and the US on whether, apart from civil suits against the airline, legal action can be brought against the perpetrators on the victims' behalf."
The case against Mr Putin could be worth hundreds of millions of pounds in potential damages.
The action is likely to be brought through the US courts. If held liable, assets of Mr Putin could be frozen.


http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/omagh-bombing-lawyer-plans-to-sue-vladimir-putin-over-shot-down-malaysian-airlines-passenger-jet-30463331.html

comongethappy

loughside wrote: »

Fair play to Jason M`Cue, we wish you every success
The lawyer who took the Omagh bomb case into the civil courts is planning legal action against Vladimir Putin for his alleged role in the shooting down of the Malaysian Airlines passenger jet.

A spokesman for McCue & Partners said in a statement: "There has been talk of civil suits against Malaysian Airlines, but those immediately responsible are not only the separatists who are alleged to have fired the rocket at Flight MH17, causing the death of hundreds of innocent victims, but those, be they states, individuals or other entities, who provided them with financial and material support and the means to do so.
"Our team is presently liaising and working with partners in Ukraine and the US on whether, apart from civil suits against the airline, legal action can be brought against the perpetrators on the victims' behalf."
The case against Mr Putin could be worth hundreds of millions of pounds in potential damages.
The action is likely to be brought through the US courts. If held liable, assets of Mr Putin could be frozen.


http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/omagh-bombing-lawyer-plans-to-sue-vladimir-putin-over-shot-down-malaysian-airlines-passenger-jet-30463331.html

Fair enough....

Snowballs chance ... Etc!

darkpagandeath

comongethappy wrote: »

Fair enough....

Snowballs chance ... Etc!

Depends, If it is actually declared a war crime and proven involvement. Depends how long he can hold power and stay in office. Once he becomes Joe public again that's a different story.

ZeroThreat

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Depends, If it is actually declared a war crime and proven involvement. Depends how long he can hold power and stay in office. Once he becomes Joe public again that's a different story.

Once he doesn't leave the slavosphere he's pretty much safe.

smurfjed

This was posted in the aviation forum, extremely sobering reading....

http://m.europe.wsj.com/articles/after-flight-17-crash-agony-debris-and-heartbreak-in-ukraine-villages-1406335532?mobile=y

http://graphics.wsj.com/mh17-crash-map/

KahBoom

So, not a shred of evidence implicating Russia (and with the crash site nearby heavy fighting - who knows if the evidence that could help identify the perpetrators, will survive), yet the EU and US have just imposed quite serious sanctions against Russia:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/29/economic-sanctions-russia-eu-governments

Not only is this a serious escalation (toughest sanctions since the end of the Cold War), but it's likely to hurt the EU as much as it hurts Russia.

It's pretty worrying to see this still escalating - and with everyone presently distracted by Gaza.

darkpagandeath

KahBoom wrote: »

So, not a shred of evidence implicating Russia (and with the crash site nearby heavy fighting - who knows if the evidence that could help identify the perpetrators, will survive), yet the EU and US have just imposed quite serious sanctions against Russia:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/29/economic-sanctions-russia-eu-governments

Not only is this a serious escalation (toughest sanctions since the end of the Cold War), but it's likely to hurt the EU as much as it hurts Russia.

It's pretty worrying to see this still escalating - and with everyone presently distracted by Gaza.

Sanction were in place before this happened, EU and USA disagreed on the strength of them till this polarised the EU's view. Sanctions are in place to put a stop to the warmongering and support of people invading Ukrainian sovereign territory.

listermint

KahBoom wrote: »

So, not a shred of evidence implicating Russia (and with the crash site nearby heavy fighting - who knows if the evidence that could help identify the perpetrators, will survive), yet the EU and US have just imposed quite serious sanctions against Russia:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/29/economic-sanctions-russia-eu-governments

Not only is this a serious escalation (toughest sanctions since the end of the Cold War), but it's likely to hurt the EU as much as it hurts Russia.

It's pretty worrying to see this still escalating - and with everyone presently distracted by Gaza.

Who is distracted by Gaza? Certainly not any western governments, If they were then they would be taking Israel to task.

however they are in this instance quite rightly and will vasts amounts of evidence taking Russia to task over is involvement start to current date in this whole thing.

The israel thing is another stinking matter all together.

Egginacup

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Well is this the reason your giving for a passenger plane being shot down ? And for you second points shooting down civilian planes is a declaration of hostilities.

Well the people who are blaming Novorussian separatists for shooting down the plane can't seem to agree on whether it was shot down on purpose, i.e. they knew it was a passenger plane. Or if they shot it down by mistake because they didn't know what they were doing and thought it was a Ukrainian cargo transporter.

So which is it now?
You're calling them murderers but can't say that they shot it down deliberately to kill civilians. And if they shot it down on purpose then why? It's a MALAYSIAN plane carrying Dutch and other International passengers. How does engaging in hostilities against Malaysia have any benefit for them?

You're veering from the point about the Russians shelling Ukrainian positions and the Ukrainians firing rounds and grenades into Russia. Someone was stating that firing grenades into another country is no big deal whereas shelling Ukrainian positions IS a big deal. That right there smacks highly of bias, double-standards and hypocrisy.

Egginacup

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Well is this the reason your giving for a passenger plane being shot down ? And for you second points shooting down civilian planes is a declaration of hostilities.

Of course it isn't. This aircraft was not violating airspace. I never suggested such a ridiculous thing. I'm sorry if you thought that from my rather vague question but it was in no way related to passenger aircraft.
Somebody, and I think it was you, stated that firing grenades into another country was not really an act of war. I wanted to know what your opinion of planes violating airpsace was.....or does that depend on who's doing the violating?

darkpagandeath

Egginacup wrote: »

Well the people who are blaming Novorussian separatists for shooting down the plane can't seem to agree on whether it was shot down on purpose, i.e. they knew it was a passenger plane. Or if they shot it down by mistake because they didn't know what they were doing and thought it was a Ukrainian cargo transporter.

So which is it now?
You're calling them murderers but can't say that they shot it down deliberately to kill civilians. And if they shot it down on purpose then why? It's a MALAYSIAN plane carrying Dutch and other International passengers. How does engaging in hostilities against Malaysia have any benefit for them?

You're veering from the point about the Russians shelling Ukrainian positions and the Ukrainians firing rounds and grenades into Russia. Someone was stating that firing grenades into another country is no big deal whereas shelling Ukrainian positions IS a big deal. That right there smacks highly of bias, double-standards and hypocrisy.

Egginacup wrote: »

Of course it isn't. This aircraft was not violating airspace. I never suggested such a ridiculous thing. I'm sorry if you thought that from my rather vague question but it was in no way related to passenger aircraft.
Somebody, and I think it was you, stated that firing grenades into another country was not really an act of war. I wanted to know what your opinion of planes violating airpsace was.....or does that depend on who's doing the violating?

Oh dear replying twice to the same point, Me thinks one of the several people on that account did not check back after lunch who had responded...

Egginacup

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Oh dear replying twice to the same point, Me thinks one of the several people on that account did not check back after lunch who had responded...

I realised that you misconstrued my question so the second reply was to address that.

Do you have an answer or just more insults and CT stuff about me working for the Kremlin?

darkpagandeath

Egginacup wrote: »

I realised that you misconstrued my question so the second reply was to address that.

Do you have an answer or just more insults and CT stuff about me working for the Kremlin?

Tbh an account that was created the same day as the event and only 99% post in this thread is that really CT ? And can you point out who exactly did i insult and what the insult was ?

KahBoom

listermint wrote: »

Who is distracted by Gaza? Certainly not any western governments, If they were then they would be taking Israel to task.

however they are in this instance quite rightly and will vasts amounts of evidence taking Russia to task over is involvement start to current date in this whole thing.

The israel thing is another stinking matter all together.

What evidence?

Egginacup

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Tbh an account that was created the same day as the event and only 99% post in this thread is that really CT ? And can you point out who exactly did i insult and what the insult was ?

Take from it what you will. Suggesting that I'm a troll in the thrall of some fifth column is an insult. If I was on here spouting lies and propaganda then you might have a point but I'm simply asking questions and also attempting to have people show the proof they have for their reckless accusations. Even members of the American intelligence community are demanding that Obama release the evidence he says he has in order to put an end to the hyperbole:

consortiumnews(dot)com/2014/07/29/obama-should-release-ukraine-evidence/

It makes for very interesting reading.

Also people on here are claiming that Novorussian separatists are destroying the crash site when in fact the opposite is true. The salvage efforts to date (repatriation of bodies for examination, flight recorders to British aviation experts) have been facilitated by the militia who are fighting Kiev forces in the area and they have been publicly thanked by Dutch and Malaysian authorities.
By contrast the Kiev government has stepped UP its bombardment against the people in the area of the crash site despite giving assurances that it would call a ceasefire.

Kiev seems to be going all out to hinder a probe into the cause of the crash while the Novorussian militia are helping.

I don't know what you can draw from these facts but they ARE facts and you can't argue with facts no matter how loud some of the real trolls on here shout that Putin did it.

darkpagandeath

Egginacup wrote: »

Take from it what you will. Suggesting that I'm a troll in the thrall of some fifth column is an insult. If I was on here spouting lies and propaganda then you might have a point but I'm simply asking questions and also attempting to have people show the proof they have for their reckless accusations. Even members of the American intelligence community are demanding that Obama release the evidence he says he has in order to put an end to the hyperbole:

consortiumnews(dot)com/2014/07/29/obama-should-release-ukraine-evidence/

It makes for very interesting reading.

Also people on here are claiming that Novorussian separatists are destroying the crash site when in fact the opposite is true. The salvage efforts to date (repatriation of bodies for examination, flight recorders to British aviation experts) have been facilitated by the militia who are fighting Kiev forces in the area and they have been publicly thanked by Dutch and Malaysian authorities.
By contrast the Kiev government has stepped UP its bombardment against the people in the area of the crash site despite giving assurances that it would call a ceasefire.

Kiev seems to be going all out to hinder a probe into the cause of the crash while the Novorussian militia are helping.

I don't know what you can draw from these facts but they ARE facts and you can't argue with facts no matter how loud some of the real trolls on here shout that Putin did it.

I have no idea how a 5th column works on a message board, And constantly asking questions not even related to what's being said is designed to derail the thread. I am well aware of the worlds view on this, Only one side is coming up with all the CT's as to point blame anywhere but at their own doorstep. What possible reason would the Ukraine have to fire on jets ? The enemy has no jets. The only people shooting down jets in the Area was the Separatists. These are facts.

Egginacup

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I have no idea how a 5th column works on a message board, And constantly asking questions not even related to what's being said is designed to derail the thread. I am well aware of the worlds view on this, Only one side is coming up with all the CT's as to point blame anywhere but at their own doorstep. What possible reason would the Ukraine have to fire on jets ? The enemy has no jets. The only people shooting down jets in the Area was the Separatists. These are facts.

I'm asking the same few questions over and over again, the most repeated one being "where is the evidence to point to Novorussian separatists?"

Any evidence shown so far (conversation recordings and some amateurish video) have proven to be fake. Moscow by contrast has released verifiable ATC, satellie and radar evidence showing that Kiev may indeed have been responsible.

So you've got fakery on one side and verifiable evidence on the other side.
You have Kiev stepping up its shelling of the crash zone since the plane came down...despite promises of a ceasefire to help the investigation whereas you have Novorussian militia, militia that you say are responsible, actually helping the investigators and metaphorically digging their own graves.

When all you rely upon are rumours and hunches don't you think you are being very obtuse in not even having an inkling of suspicion about Kiev's involvement and a smidgen of doubt about the militia's culpability.

And if asking the same questions over and over is supposed to derail a thread then the premise of the thread must be on shaky ground to begin with.

darkpagandeath

Egginacup wrote: »

I'm asking the same few questions over and over again, the most repeated one being "where is the evidence to point to Novorussian separatists?"

Any evidence shown so far (conversation recordings and some amateurish video) have proven to be fake. Moscow by contrast has released verifiable ATC, satellie and radar evidence showing that Kiev may indeed have been responsible.

So you've got fakery on one side and verifiable evidence on the other side.
You have Kiev stepping up its shelling of the crash zone since the plane came down...despite promises of a ceasefire to help the investigation whereas you have Novorussian militia, militia that you say are responsible, actually helping the investigators and metaphorically digging their own graves.

When all you rely upon are rumours and hunches don't you think you are being very obtuse in not even having an inkling of suspicion about Kiev's involvement and a smidgen of doubt about the militia's culpability.

And if asking the same questions over and over is supposed to derail a thread then the premise of the thread must be on shaky ground to begin with.

By whom exactly ?

who_me

Egginacup wrote: »

By contrast the Kiev government has stepped UP its bombardment against the people in the area of the crash site despite giving assurances that it would call a ceasefire.

Kiev seems to be going all out to hinder a probe into the cause of the crash while the Novorussian militia are helping.

I don't know what you can draw from these facts but they ARE facts and you can't argue with facts no matter how loud some of the real trolls on here shout that Putin did it.

It's odd how when you make statements they're facts, when anyone else does it they're "reckless accusations".

"Kiev seems to be going all out to hinder a probe into the cause of the crash" is not a fact. It's a conclusion you draw from reports that the Ukrainian government is shelling near the site. Not only do you accept that the shelling it taking place (which it may well be) but you can infer the government's motives, and call it a fact.

"while the Novorussian militia are helping." is not a fact. And I'm sure you'd find many written and TV reports directly contradicting the statement that they have been helping.

who_me

darkpagandeath wrote: »

By whom exactly ?

Yes, I'd also like to see evidence of that.

loughside

who_me wrote: »

Yes, I'd also like to see evidence of that.

I`m in the queue too...

Links please!!

preferably of the non-kremlin type komrad

*waits patiently*

pablo128

KahBoom wrote: »

What evidence?

Ah will you and your buddies give over. There's an avalanche of reports out there. Are you honestly dismissing them all? Every report critical of the Russians, you are just going to brush them all off?

pablo128

Egginacup wrote: »

Any evidence shown so far (conversation recordings and some amateurish video) have proven to be fake. Moscow by contrast has released verifiable ATC, satellie and radar evidence showing that Kiev may indeed have been responsible.

Good lord. The mind boggles.

loughside

Are the natives beginning to get restless in kremlin land??

You can fool some of the people some of the time .. etc.. etc..

• A 'Russian Lockerbie'

Behind the scenes in the Kremlin, away from the official television propaganda, uncertainty is beginning to spread. Putin himself has seemed agitated and nervous in his latest television appearances.
Voices claiming that Russia's intervention in eastern Ukraine has turned into a disaster are growing louder, as are those who consider the shooting down of MH 17 to be a turning point. Moscow-based journalist and columnist Yulia Latynina described the events as a "Russian Lockerbie." And the editor-in-chief of the daily Nezavisimaya Gazeta is even predicting Putin's descent to the status of political "pariah" because he armed rebels in eastern Ukraine.


A program on radio broadcaster Echo of Moscow, which is at least half-way independent, came to the conclusion last week that the situation had blindsided Putin. Political scientist Stanislav Belkovsky said in the program that the president had come across as being quite optimistic prior to the shooting down of MH 17. The separatists had encircled the Ukrainian army south of Donetsk and Putin believed he was on the verge of being able to force the West to negotiate over Ukraine's fate. That, Belkovski believes, was the goal of Putin's interference in Ukraine all along. But the shooting down of the aircraft has altered the situation and Moscow's support for the rebels wound up costing the lives of 298 innocent people. "This has made clear once and for all that Putin can no longer disentangle himself from the separatists."

roryc

How has this troll not been banned yet? Spouting absolute rubbish with a blatantly obvious pro Russian agenda. There have been no 'facts' given on either side that satisfy some posters on this thread, but to state that the recordings have been 'proven fake' is simply false. You are the only person, anywhere, that has claimed this. I haven't seen it on any other news sites. You have made up this 'fact'.

Then to come out with this crap - "Any evidence shown so far (conversation recordings and some amateurish video) have proven to be fake. Moscow by contrast has released verifiable ATC, satellie and radar evidence showing that Kiev may indeed have been responsible." You are deluded.

Where the f**k are the mods on this thread? This troll created an account for the sole purpose of derailing this thread. He even condoned robbing from the dead and still hasn't been banned.