Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

MonkieSocks

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

I bet you think al megrahi blew up the Lockerbie plane.

E was only supposed blow the bleedin doors off :rolleyes:

gandalf

The reaction of the US and other NATO members is going to be interesting if it's confirmed that the Pro-Russian insurgents are responsible.

Unconfirmed reports are saying 23 US citizens on boards, in the video clip posted on twitter there are a number of Dutch Passports and at least 2 UK ones as well.

Lord Trollington

Anyone watching RT (Russia Today)?

Everything they are reporting seem to be in complete contradiction to what Sky News are reporting.

darkpagandeath

miss no stars wrote: »

Divert elsewhere.

I'm sure you could if you had unlimited fuel to divert drastically out of the area. but that not being the case i assume that's why the diverted to that flight path.

Firefox11

donegal__road wrote: »

yes, but my god did you see the theory that the authorities came up with to explain how that accident happened?

Aye.....The Truth is out there...

porsche959

gandalf wrote: »

The reaction of the US and other NATO members is going to be interesting if it's confirmed that the Pro-Russian insurgents are responsible.

There is going to be one hell of a diplomatic row no matter who is responsible.

who_me

miss no stars wrote: »

EASA issued a directive to avoid the area months ago. They should have been aware.

Thanks, that was clumsily worded by me. I should have written: "Knowing the area they were entering was in contention, I wonder if they thus climbed 2,000ft..".

On the previous reported quote claiming credit for shooting down an An-26 - an An-26 is a small turboprop aircraft with a ceiling of ~25,000ft. It's hard to imagine how anyone could have mistaken a large Boeing 777 @ 33,000ft for one of those.

gandalf

Lord Trollington wrote: »

Anyone watching RT (Russia Today)?

Everything they are reporting seem to be in complete contradiction to what Sky News are reporting.

Of course they are. If the Pro-Russians are responsible Russia are going to be in a very difficult place and will face punitive sanctions.

bear1

I wonder if any Irish were on board seeing as it is a popular route to Oz.
This could be the final nail in the coffin both for Malaysian and the Wests attitude to the on going war there.

comongethappy

Lord Trollington wrote: »

Anyone watching RT (Russia Today)?

Everything they are reporting seem to be in complete contradiction to what Sky News are reporting.

Its incredible viewing.

Was watching the 7oclock bulletin where they blamed the Ukrainian government, by their own admission, without proof.

They are also saying that Putin was the intended target.....

miss no stars

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I'm sure you could if you had unlimited fuel to divert drastically out of the area. but that not being the case i assume that's why the diverted to that flight path.

Look, I'm not being smart or anything, but nobody was forcing them to fly that route. Go further north or further south or don't go at all. If you can't make it in one hop, do it in 2. It is a known conflict zone, there are directives out from EASA to avoid the airspace and there have already been an aircraft shot down in the last month.

miss no stars

bear1 wrote: »

I wonder if any Irish were on board seeing as it is a popular route to Oz.
This could be the final nail in the coffin both for Malaysian and the Wests attitude to the on going war there.

Much the same:

http://www.twf.org/News/Y2003/0815-Lockerbie2.jpg

listermint

miss no stars wrote: »

Look, I'm not being smart or anything, but nobody was forcing them to fly that route. Go further north or further south or don't go at all. If you can't make it in one hop, do it in 2. It is a known conflict zone, there are directives out from EASA to avoid the airspace and there have already been an aircraft shot down in the last month.

No words

banquo

I think what the poster meant is that it looks like there were warnings sent out to all airlines saying "Do not fly this route for a while", and every airline except MA seems to have heeded that.

Lord Trollington

gandalf wrote: »

Of course they are. If the Pro-Russians are responsible Russia are going to be in a very difficult place and will face punitive sanctions.

The anchor is Northern Irish along with a English bloke. I know RT pay their wages. But these guys would have journalist background.

How do they sit there reporting this muck.

comongethappy

Lord Trollington wrote: »

The anchor is Northern Irish along with a English bloke. I know RT pay their wages. But these guys would have journalist background.

How do they sit there reporting this muck.

Its baffling alright.... They must be well paid.

gandalf

Lord Trollington wrote: »

The anchor is Northern Irish along with a English bloke. I know RT pay their wages. But these guys would have journalist background.

How do they sit there reporting this muck.

You will always find people who are willing to sacrifice their integrity for money.

userod

Conas wrote: »

He went into protect ethnic Russians, who wanted him to go in after the illegal overthrow of a legit goverment, and who voted unanimously to rejoin Russia. He hasn't moved any further since. If the people of Crimea don't want to be part of Ukraine anymore, that's their decision. The same way if the people of Northern Ireland, no longer wanted to be part of the UK, they can do it also.

Will you please do us all a favour and do as you said you would do, finally.

Conas wrote: »

I'm not peddling personal agenda's. I'm giving my personal opinion. But you know what, I'm finished discussing this airline crash, the issue in Gaza, and any other issues people are debating lately. I'm finished with boards,ie. People have taken upon themselves to attack me every post.

mickmackey1

We'd be better off listening to Murdoch alright.

porsche959

Lord Trollington wrote: »

The anchor is Northern Irish along with a English bloke. I know RT pay their wages. But these guys would have journalist background.

How do they sit there reporting this muck.

Don't think they're any worse than Fox news on the other extreme. Though being no worse than Fox news is perhaps not the highest standard to aim at.

brandon_flowers

gandalf wrote: »

You will always find people who are willing to sacrifice their integrity for money.

You won't find the opposite in too many places either though!

floggg

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Just an educated guess that they don't have access to that type of hardware. Anything is possible though.

I would imagine what Russia has, they have.

ceadaoin.

banquo wrote: »

I think what the poster meant is that it looks like there were warnings sent out to all airlines saying "Do not fly this route for a while", and every airline except MA seems to have heeded that.

Is there a source stating that Malaysia was the only airline to still fly over Ukraine? I thought that at least BA and Virgin did and have only announced that they won't since this incident.

Conas

userod wrote: »

Will you please do us all a favour and do as you said you would do, finally.

Yeah ok, I'll keep my word and go. Bye.

gandalf

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Is there a source stating that Malaysia was the only airline to still fly over Ukraine? I thought that at least BA and Virgin did and have only announced that they won't since this incident.

And Aeroflot and Air France

darkpagandeath

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Is there a source stating that Malaysia was the only airline to still fly over Ukraine? I thought that at least BA and Virgin did and have only announced that they won't since this incident.

gandalf wrote: »

And Aeroflot and Air France

Airlines that fly that route were all still flying it until this tragedy, I don't get why people are picking on Malaysia.

brandon_flowers

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Is there a source stating that Malaysia was the only airline to still fly over Ukraine? I thought that at least BA and Virgin did and have only announced that they won't since this incident.

An Air India 787 and Singapore Airlines 777 were within 25km of the MH plane at the time it was shot down.

ceadaoin.

brandon_flowers wrote: »

An Air India 787 and Singapore Airlines 777 were within 25km of the MH plane at the time it was shot down.

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Airlines that fly that route were all still flying it until this tragedy, I don't get why people are picking on Malaysia.

gandalf wrote: »

And Aeroflot and Air France

So I don't get how anyone could suggest the airline are at fault here? It could have happened to any plane that was in the area at the time.

dj jarvis

Aljazeera have just shown camera phone footage of the plane hitting the ground
jesus , what away to die

miss no stars

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Airlines that fly that route were all still flying it until this tragedy, I don't get why people are picking on Malaysia.

Nobody is picking on Malaysia Airlines. In response to someone saying (they've since clarified that how they phrased it was not how they intended it) that maybe they realized they were going into a conflict zone, I stated that EASA had already issued a notice that airlines should avoid that airspace. For some reason, someone decided that they had no other option but to fly in that airspace. I pointed out that they had other options, but they didn't choose to use them. That's not picking on Malaysia Airlines; that's stating the obvious.

loosetongue

Apparently it costs too much on fuel and delays to divert around that area and many were of the opinion that it was not necessary to to fly around the area as the planes flying over 33,000 feet could never be hit by shoulder/mobile RPGs.

They might have reconsidered taking such a position if they had known the separatists had surface to air missiles that they were likely to use.

I was watching al jazerra english which i find to be a very good news station. One expert they interviewed said although the missile system the believe was used dates back to soviet era, it is quite sophisticated.

He said it hits its target 95% of the time but it depends on the altitude and speed of the target. He also said that missiles could reach 72 or 82000 feet so, the civil passenger plane flying at 33,000 feet would not have had a chance assuming, the equipment was used competently.

GrumPy

dj jarvis wrote: »

Aljazeera have just shown camera phone footage of the plane hitting the ground
jesus , what away to die

Link?

Rhys Essien

The reason that airlines continued on this route is because they thought there was zero danger especially flying over 6 miles up.

Ukraine are now saying they have intercepted phone calls of seperatist leaders talking about shooting down a plane seconds/minutes after this happened.They know the people and also have the phone numbers used.

Obviously,the seperatists had to be trained up to use these missile launchers or there was 'specialist people' working with them.

Finally,if it was mistaken by seperatists,why the hell would there be a Ukrainian military plane flying at 33,000ft so close to the Russian border heading towards Russian airspace??.No logic there.Those seperatists must be some dopes.

dj jarvis

GrumPy wrote: »

Link?

watch the channel on sky , they have it on loop twenty minutes ago

its a long distance shot of nothing , then an explosion , as the plane hits the ground

comongethappy

Rhys Essien wrote: »

The reason that airlines continued on this route is because they thought there was zero danger especially flying over 6 miles up.

Ukraine are now saying they have intercepted phone calls of seperatist leaders talking about shooting down a plane seconds/minutes after this happened.They know the people and also have the phone numbers used.

Obviously,the seperatists had to be trained up to use these missile launchers or there was 'specialist people' working with them.

Finally,if it was mistaken by seperatists,why the hell would there be a Ukrainian military plane flying at 33,000ft so close to the Russian border heading towards Russian airspace??.No logic there.Those seperatists must be some dopes.

They know that they have made a big mistake.... They are just trying to divert blame.

Rhys Essien

They now have called a 3 day ceasefire 'to let people in'.I wonder has Putin summoned them to Moscow.There will be someone going to Siberia over this.

loughside

Rhys Essien wrote: »

The reason that airlines continued on this route is because they thought there was zero danger especially flying over 6 miles up.

Ukraine are now saying they have intercepted phone calls of seperatist leaders talking about shooting down a plane seconds/minutes after this happened.They know the people and also have the phone numbers used.

and here is that conversation, Terrorist leader/Russian Intelligence handler...

`Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777-200 flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur was allegedly shot down by a group of Russian-backed Cossack militants near the village of Chornukhine, Luhansk Oblast, some 80 kilometers north-west of Donetsk, according to recordings of intercepted phone calls between Russian military intelligence officers and members of terrorist groups, released by the country’s security agency (SBU).
One phone call apparently was made at 4:40 p.m. Kyiv time, or 20 minutes after the plane crash, by Igor Bezler, who the SBU says is a Russian military intelligence officer and leading commander of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic. He reports to a person identified by Ukraine’s SBU as a colonel in the main intelligence department of the general headquarters of the armed forces of the Russian Federation Vasili Geranin regarding the shot down plane, which is about to be examined by the militants.
The second intercepted conversation released by the Security Service of Ukraine was apparently between militants nicknamed “Major” and “Greek” immediately upon inspection of the crash site.
“It’s 100 percent a passenger (civilian) aircraft,” Major is recorded as saying, as he admitted to seeing no weapons on site. “Absolutely nothing. Civilian items, medicinal stuff, towels, toilet paper.”
Read the full transcript of an intercepted phone call below:
Igor Bezler: We have just shot down a plane. Group Minera. It fell down beyond Yenakievo (Donetsk Oblast).
Vasili Geranin: Pilots. Where are the pilots?
IB: Gone to search for and photograph the plane. Its smoking.
VG: How many minutes ago?
IB: About 30 minutes ago.
SBU comment: After examining the site of the plane the terrorists come to the conclusion that they have shot down a civilian plane. The next part of the conversation took place about 40 minutes later.
“Major”: These are Chernukhin folks who shot down the plane. From the Chernukhin check point. Those cossacks who are based in Chernukhino.
“Grek”: Yes, Major.
"Major": The plane fell apart in the air. In the area of Petropavlovskaya mine. The first “200” (code word for dead person). We have found the first “200”. A Civilian.
“Greek”: Well, what do you have there?
“Major”: In short, it was 100 percent a passenger (civilian) aircraft.
“Greek”: Are many people there?
“Major”: Holy sh__t! The debris fell right into the yards (of homes).
“Greek”: What kind of aircraft?
“Major”: I haven’t ascertained this. I haven’t been to the main sight. I am only surveying the scene where the first bodies fell. There are the remains of internal brackets, seats and bodies.
“Greek”: Is there anything left of the weapon?
“Major”: Absolutely nothing. Civilian items, medicinal stuff, towels, toilet paper.
“Greek”: Are there documents?
“Major”: Yes, of one Indonesian student. From a university in Thompson`

GrumPy

dj jarvis wrote: »

watch the channel on sky , they have it on loop twenty minutes ago

its a long distance shot of nothing , then an explosion , as the plane hits the ground

Oh yeah, that wasn't great.

IvyTheTerrible

GrumPy wrote: »

Oh yeah, that wasn't great.

And it's important to see "better" footage of the impact, why, exactly?

gandalf

comongethappy wrote: »

They know that they have made a big mistake.... They are just trying to divert blame.

Who the Ukrainians or the Separatists?

Given the Separatists have not been operating any air assets I would highly doubt that the Ukrainians were actively preparing to use surface to air missiles and they definitely wouldn't use them on the Russians as that would hand the Russians the excuse to hit them hard.

On the other hand the Ukrainian forces are using air power and the Separatists have shown their willingness to use these kinds of weapons and have shot down two Ukrainian planes in the last few days. A Pro-Russian source on Twitter tweeted just before the Malaysian plane was reported missing that they shot down a Ukrainian Government plane and then deleted the tweet when it became apparent that it wasn't.

beks101

This is sad and eerie

http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/mh17-passenger-joked-about-disappearing-plane

Banjo String

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

And it's important to see "better" footage of the impact, why, exactly?

I would hope the poster meant the video wasn't great in the context that it wasn't pleasant to watch.

IvyTheTerrible

Banjo String wrote: »

I would hope the poster meant the video wasn't great in the context it wasn't pleasant to watch.

Ah I didn't think of it like that. I would hope so too.

ive only just heard what happened can someone sum it up ?

Too Tough To Die

beks101 wrote: »

This is sad and eerie

http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/mh17-passenger-joked-about-disappearing-plane

Like something from an Alanis Morisette song.

beks101

Senior US officials are confirming it was shot down by a surface to air missile.

Looking likely it was a Buk. Apparently Associated Press reported earlier this week that it had seen a Buk system on the ground in a separatist-controlled area of eastern Ukraine.

shamrock55

Those poor poor people, this is truely shocking and disturbing, yet nobody will pay for it, this world just sucks, this tradgedy along with whats going on in gaza just puts my head in a spin:(

GrumPy

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

And it's important to see "better" footage of the impact, why, exactly?

I didn't say it was important. I was curious if there was footage of actual impact, to confirm if most of the plane broke up mid air; or the plane simply hit the ground. Pure human curiosity.
I personally wouldn't capture any footage myself out of respect, but I'm almost certainly going to consume if it it's posted - sue me. Maybe that's just as bad? Go figure.

_Kaiser_

First off and most importantly, condolences to the families of the dead this evening - people who did nothing wrong than being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

This thread however shows exactly why too much social media and instant news is a dangerous thing:

- Rampant unvouched speculation that instantly gains legs.. globally!

- A rush from "journalists" and random people to outdo each other with horribly graphic pictures on Twitter and such

- A shocking naivety of many people. It's a dangerous lawless combat zone and people expect the local equivalent of the Gardai to be doing traffic control and sticking up tape to cordon the area off

A lot of innocent people have been killed tonight and yet the main focus seems to be who'll get the biggest scoop, viral social media post/pic, or most thanked post.

I realise this is the world we live in, but it's kinda sobering at the same time if you consider it from the perspective of what it says about our "evolved" societies.

gandalf

They are now reporting that there were 80 children on board MH17