Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

Tarzana

floggg wrote: »

It is true, and unfortunately the world will pay more attention because Europeans were involved.

But that doesn't make it more horrible. It just resonates more.

The poster even acknowledged the poor choice of wording.

Well, people will pay more attention in Europe and America, yes, but probably not elsewhere.

Rhys Essien

Passenger jets should not have been in any danger on this flight path,especially at 33,000ft.We can safely say that this jet was NOT shot down by your average untrained seperatist.

It was shot down by something like this.The latest most sophisticated SAM.Now the question is,were NATO aware of any of these along the Russian border.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantsir-S1

Conas

floggg wrote: »

Poor you. It's a lonely job cheerleading a tyrannical dictator who uses war and oppression as political policies.

Good description of George W Bush and Barack Obama alright.

wretcheddomain

Stinicker wrote: »

I flew this yesterday am devastated and was going to be on it but changed to a day sooner.

You're saying that as if the plane was deliberately targeted for weeks. The fact is that thousands of planes have passed this airspace and any one of them could have been the target - alternatively, none may have been targeted. It wasn't planned like 9/11, it was an off-the-cuff error made by the separatists. Statistically, you were almost always safe.

darkpagandeath

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Passenger jets should not have been in any danger on this flight path,especially at 33,000ft.We can safely say that this jet was NOT shot down by your average untrained seperatist.

It was shot down by something like this.The latest most sophisticated SAM.Now the question is,were NATO aware of any of these along the Russian border.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantsir-S1

Should have been as a Ukrainian plane was downed recently by none separatist available tech. These are very sophisticated items even if they are from the 70s. Joe the separatist would not be able to just climb in one and press the red button.

Ref the BUK not the linked one

floggg

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I'm sure that's pretty common these days with smart phones and all that with anyone going on a long trip.

I imagine it was a reference to the last Malaysian airlines flight to hit the news.

Coincidentally times dark humour.

wretcheddomain

First this...

Conas wrote: »

I'm finished with boards,ie. People have taken upon themselves to attack me every post. Good for you, but I'm not going to be a whipping boy for anybody. You will no longer hear my opinion anymore. I'm finished with this place for good!!!!!!!!!

...then this...

Conas wrote: »

Good description of George W Bush and Barack Obama alright.

Make up your mind.

Tipsy McSwagger

Have they blamed any innocent Libyans yet?

Lingua Franca

https://twitter.com/CNNJason/status/489824327173697536/photo/1

That's 8 Dutch passports and a UK one. I think the blue one might be American and I don't recognise the red one.

Edit: red one is Malaysian

Conas

wretcheddomain wrote: »

First this...

...then this...



Make up your mind.

Well had there not being an overthrow of a legal goverment, none of this death and suffering would be happening. But no one wants to debate that though do they? All Putin's fault, all Russia's fault. Yet Obama gets a pass on everything.

tricky D

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Passenger jets should not have been in any danger on this flight path,especially at 33,000ft.We can safely say that this jet was NOT shot down by your average untrained seperatist.

It was shot down by something like this.The latest most sophisticated SAM.Now the question is,were NATO aware of any of these along the Russian border.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantsir-S1

Anton Geraschenko, an advisor in the Ministry of Internal Affairs, said that the plane was shot down by Russia’s Buk missile system. On July 14, a press release from the U.S. State department indicated that the Russian military were supplying separatists with “heavy weaponry.” The local Russian separatists in the area where the plane went down, told RT, that its “self-defense forces just don’t have such military equipment.”

Source with links: http://heavy.com/news/2014/07/malaysian-airlines-crash-in-ukraine-russia-shot-down/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system
range 140km and altitude up to 25km

Strongbow10

25 US citizens onboard, its been reported

beks101

Bloomberg, quoting an Ukrainian Interior Minister adviser, are saying 23 Americans onboard.

Both Amsterdam and KL airports would be huge international hubs. And the flight would be a common one for holiday-makers jumping off point at KL for places like Bali and Australia. The span of nationalities is likely to be huge and very close to home

wretcheddomain

Conas wrote: »

Well had there not being an overthrow of a legal goverment, none of this death and suffering would be happening. But no one wants to debate that though do they? All Putin's fault, all Russia's fault. Yet Obama gets a pass on everything.

I'll entertain you just for this post.

Let's assume you're right - that Obama gets a "pass on everything".

How does this justify Putin's actions in Ukraine? If you decide that it doesn't, then you're actually on side with users here.

mickmackey1

tricky D wrote: »

a press release from the U.S. State department indicated that the Russian military were supplying separatists with “heavy weaponry.”

The Yanks wouldn't dream of arming Israel of course :rolleyes:

Conas

wretcheddomain wrote: »

I'll entertain you just for this post.

Let's assume you're right - that Obama gets a "pass on everything".

How does this justify Putin's actions in Ukraine? If you decide that it doesn't, then you're actually on side with users here.

Well what action has Putin taken in Ukraine? He didn't arrange the coup, that started all this is off. It will be no laughing matter if this spills over, and there's another World War on European soil.

riffmongous

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Should have been as a Ukrainian plane was downed recently by none separatist available tech. These are very sophisticated items even if they are from the 70s. Joe the separatist would not be able to just climb in one and press the red button.

Ref the BUK not the linked one

But is it not possible there would be separatists with experience with advanced weapons systems from soviet times? Or from serving with the Ukrainian military

wazky

wretcheddomain wrote: »

I'll entertain you just for this post.

Let's assume you're right - that Obama gets a "pass on everything".

How does this justify Putin's actions in Ukraine? If you decide that it doesn't, then you're actually on side with users here.

Could ye not take this to PM or something?, its getting tedious.

wp_rathead

Conas wrote: »

Well had there not being an overthrow of a legal goverment, none of this death and suffering would be happening. But no one wants to debate that though do they? All Putin's fault, all Russia's fault. Yet Obama gets a pass on everything.

wretcheddomain wrote: »

I'll entertain you just for this post.

Let's assume you're right - that Obama gets a "pass on everything".

How does this justify Putin's actions in Ukraine? If you decide that it doesn't, then you're actually on side with users here.

Really don't think this thread is the place to debate this lads

Take it too the Politics forum or something..

Remmy

I'm thinking of the few instances I can recall of passenger planes being shot down. Most of them were shot down just after take-off when climbing and still low to the ground. I'd agree it's a whole different kettle of fish and level of scariness if the thing was shot down when it was high up.

wretcheddomain

Conas wrote: »

Well what action has Putin taken in Ukraine? He didn't arrange the coup, that started all this is off. It will be no laughing matter if this spills over, and there's another World War on European soil.

I'll break my rule and answer two.

Accepting the secession of Crimea? I mean, if Putin had no involvement whatsoever, then he'd distance himself from such a secession. Knowing that this secession would cause further unrest in western Ukraine was inevitable - so that is "action taken" - either direct or indirect, depending on what position you adopt.

He didn't arrange the coup but he's actively supporting the rebels, thereby prolonging the conflict. Furthermore, the UK and United States supply weapons to the Syrian rebels but I imagine that you look upon this as "interference". If it's interference for Syria, then it's interference for Putin.

Both of these political moves have prolonged the conflict. Let's assume that the West ignited the conflict; Putin turned it into a conflagration.

Anyway, I've broken my rule not to engage with you on these matters, at the risk of being off-topic, I'll depart from the political slant.

Diabhal Beag

That pic of the passports is heartbreaking if it's real.

Tipsy McSwagger

Diabhal Beag wrote: »

That pic of the passports is heartbreaking if it's real.

Pics of the bodies are a lot worse.

Harry Palmr

The black boxes will hopefully reveal something, or at least rule certain events out.

Conas

wretcheddomain wrote: »

I'll break my rule and answer two.

Accepting the secession of Crimea? I mean, if Putin had no involvement whatsoever, then he'd distance himself from such a secession. Knowing that this secession would cause further unrest in western Ukraine was inevitable - so that is "action taken" - either direct or indirect, depending on what position you adopt.

He didn't arrange the coup but he's actively supporting the rebels, thereby prolonging the conflict. Furthermore, the UK and United States supply weapons to the Syrian rebels but I imagine that you look upon this as "interference". If it's interference for Syria, then it's interference for Putin.

Both of these political moves have prolonged the conflict. Let's assume that the West ignited the conflict; Putin turned it into a conflagration.

Anyway, I've broken my rule not to engage with you on these matters, at the risk of being off-topic, I'll depart from the political slant.

He went into protect ethnic Russians, who wanted him to go in after the illegal overthrow of a legit goverment, and who voted unanimously to rejoin Russia. He hasn't moved any further since. If the people of Crimea don't want to be part of Ukraine anymore, that's their decision. The same way if the people of Northern Ireland, no longer wanted to be part of the UK, they can do it also.

karma_

Harry Palmr wrote: »

The black boxes will hopefully reveal something, or at least rule certain events out.

I'm not sure what they would tell us other than it was definitely struck by a missile.

In fairness, this one seems clear cut and it can only be the separatists.

wretcheddomain

With respect to the plane actually breaking up - if it broke up either at the point of contact of the missile or mid-air, then wouldn't you expect a greater spread of the wreckage? Judging from the photos on Twitter, the wreckage seems to be collected as if it crashed without breaking up; at an angle of course.

Diabhal Beag

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

Pics of the bodies are a lot worse.

Didn't see that yet thank ****

losthorizon

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Passenger jets should not have been in any danger on this flight path,especially at 33,000ft.We can safely say that this jet was NOT shot down by your average untrained seperatist.

It was shot down by something like this.The latest most sophisticated SAM.Now the question is,were NATO aware of any of these along the Russian border.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantsir-S1

Reuters are saying it was a BUK missle system quoting interfax.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system

Tipsy McSwagger

Russian terrorists have admitted shooting down 2 planes in that area today.