Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

KahBoom

whatstherush wrote: »

Only asking now, but in what way can the US images/videos be independently verified, that the recording can't?

The minutiae of how images/videos are independently verified, is kind of off-topic really.

KahBoom

KahBoom wrote: »

That most reputable news organizations, say they are unable to independently verify the recording, suggests that it can't be independently verified - making it useless as evidence.

If the US provide satellite images/videos, they can be subject to independent verification.

Who, in your view, are the most reputable news organisations?

KahBoom

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

Who, in your view, are the most reputable news organisations?

Off topic - what is the point of the question?

KahBoom

KahBoom wrote: »

Off topic - what is the point of the question?

You brought it up first! Ffs you're not even hiding under your bridge now.

KahBoom

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

You brought it up first! Ffs you're not even hiding under your bridge now.

You're picking random parts of my post, to try and ask totally off-topic questions to derail the thread.

Rather than waste time asking a multitude of pointless questions, show me some independent verification of that intercepted discussion, or we can consider it unreliable information.

KahBoom

KahBoom wrote: »

You're picking random parts of my post, to try and ask totally off-topic questions to derail the thread.

Rather than waste time asking a multitude of pointless questions, show me some independent verification of that intercepted discussion, or we can consider it unreliable information.

Woah, hold on a minute. Your post had two paragraphs and I asked one question relating to the first paragraph.

This crap you are now spewing is really showing you up for what you are. You are disrupting this thread and have no regard for this forum nor it's charter.

Egginacup

SeanW wrote: »

Actually the evidence leads to only one conclusion. It's the "Russia uber alles" crowd that's just making up stuff about Kyiv.
The proof shows that the separatists are responsible. Not the Russian state. Unless you are admitting that Russia is behind the whole thing?

SeanW, I'm afraid so far the evidence, wherever it is, leads to no such conclusion.

If the evidence led undeniably to the fact that Novorussian separatists under guidance from Moscow were responsible then it would have been released long ago.

Why aren't Kiev releasing the ATC communications?

Surely you must want to know that.

KahBoom

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

Woah, hold on a minute. Your post had two paragraphs and I asked one question relating to the first paragraph.

This crap you are now spewing is really showing you up for what you are. You are disrupting this thread and have no regard for this forum nor it's charter.

You're asking totally off-topic questions; this thread is about the downed airplane, and discussing evidence about that if you like - not about what news organizations people deem to be 'reputable'.

That is a totally off-topic question, and you're showing yourself up here as aiming to smear posters rather than engage in debate.

Either you can provide independent verification of that recording (from a source more reliable for verification than the US government), or you can't - so once again, either provide sufficient information to back up your claims, or they can be considered unreliable/unproven.

You and others have proven, time and again, that instead of doing that, you waste pages and pages of the thread, prevaricating and driving the thread off-topic, instead of backing up what you say.

whatstherush

KahBoom wrote: »

The minutiae of how images/videos are independently verified, is kind of off-topic really.

It's not really, I'm trying to understand the mechanics of how you declare one piece of evidence unverified, but feel confident you declare the other to be verifiable.

KahBoom

whatstherush wrote: »

It's not really, I'm trying to understand the mechanics of how you declare one piece of evidence unverified, but feel confident you declare the other to be verifiable.

You're comparing two different situations:
1: The Ukrainian security services providing potential evidence, and the US claiming verification.
2: The US providing potential evidence, and getting a third party to independently verify that.

The US lacking valid claim, to being impartial in their verification, doesn't affect their ability to provide their own evidence, and get that independently verified by a third party.

So yes, the minutiae of how something is independently verified is irrelevant, but the impartiality (or not) of those doing the verification is not.

KahBoom

Still waiting for someone to show me some impartial independent verification of that recording - seems that can be discarded as 'evidence' now as well.

InTheTrees

Fascinating thread.

I wonder were these russian propagandists are actually located?

And how much are they being paid?

I think a major part of the story now is how russia is trying to use social media to mend their highly tarnished reputation.

Unfortunately none of these protestations of innocence do anything to address the absolutely awful reputation putin has developed, which is really the cause of this mess.

Russia is devolving into a semi-third world dictatorship. The kind that has show elections every few years to elect the same person over and over again.

Plus they've banned criticism of putin. Its illegal. Russians are living in a little bubble created by a tin pot dictator and they're trying to deal with the rest of the world with 1950's style soviet tactics. No doubt dreamt up by putin during his years as head of the KGB and maybe effective in the mother country but not so much here in the west where there's more choice of media.

Sad.

roryc

Egginacup wrote: »

More nonsense while avoiding the questions

Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?

Egginacup

whatstherush wrote: »

How were they proven to be fake?

The youtube video that purported to show a Russian BUK missile system crossing the border back into Russia was actually shot in the Ukrainian town of Krasnoarmeisk which has been under Kiev control since May.
It was a blatant fabrication and anybody who has an interest in the truth would justifiably be angry with those (Kiev) who are engaging in such a deception.

KahBoom

InTheTrees wrote: »

Fascinating thread.

I wonder were these russian propagandists are actually located?

And how much are they being paid?

I think a major part of the story now is how russia is trying to use social media to mend their highly tarnished reputation.

Unfortunately none of these protestations of innocence do anything to address the absolutely awful reputation putin has developed, which is really the cause of this mess.

Russia is devolving into a semi-third world dictatorship. The kind that has show elections every few years to elect the same person over and over again.

Plus they've banned criticism of putin. Its illegal. Russians are living in a little bubble created by a tin pot dictator and they're trying to deal with the rest of the world with 1950's style soviet tactics. No doubt dreamt up by putin during his years as head of the KGB and maybe effective in the mother country but not so much here in the west where there's more choice of media.

Sad.

Ya anyone who disagrees with you is a shill/propagandist :rolleyes:

Pathetically poor level of argument in this thread - takes pages and pages of garbage, just to get people to post up their supposed 'evidence', and then the credibility of the evidence vanishes completely upon even the most minute inspection.

InTheTrees

Its also worth observing that this tactic of covering your ears and just screaming at people that they're wrong and that there's no evidence, and there has to be more evidence and the evidence is fake and everyone is lying, is actually becoming the story itself?

This thread would probably have faded away otherwise.

Russia's reputation is like the sochi olympics. Its a veneer of westernisation covering up shabby disorganization and inefficiency.

Which is why its not hard to believe they could shoot down an airliner.

Fig of Fallacy

Chronological Order -

(1) Ukraine has a democratically elected government which is both east and west leaning to a certain extent.

(2) The USA tries and fails to oust Assad on chemical weapon claims because Putin stopped them (good on Putin).

(3) The USA and her Western European bitches decide to attack Russia for daring to thwart the USA's middle eastern agenda. Ukraine is targeted as a way to get at Russia.

(4) A Illegal Coup is orchestrated on the Ukrainian government (By NATO) after the EU tries to force an impossible decision (go west or east etc). People are murdered, extreme right wingers come to power.

(5) The NATO propaganda machine portrays to the USA and Western European populations that its 'a nice fussy wussy democratic revolution and everyone is happy'.

(6) Regions in Eastern Ukraine tell the new regime to 'get stuffed'. Crimea votes itself into the Russian Federation. Other regions are not so lucky.

(7) The new Kiev government embarks on the most outrageous military action seen in Europe since WW2. Launching full scale military attacks on its own people in the east using disproportionate power. To this date there are thousands of people killed by shelling and airstrikes, mostly (almost completely) censored from western news.

(8) The eastern separatists dig in and Kiev fails to secure all of the country.

(9) MH 17 crashes, presumed hit by a missile.

So, who is ultimately responsible for the destruction of MH 17? NATO, the EU and the USA are responsible with their childish and belligerent geopolitical foolishness, their deceiving of their own populations in order to frame the narrative, their backing of odious and in some cases 'fascist' players in Kiev and their support for Kiev to go on a murderous rampage against its own people. All thoroughly sanitized by the NATO propaganda machine.

What has Russia done? Russia had offered Ukraine a better deal than the EU, and without stipulations. NATO broke their agreement not to encroach on Former soviet territories. This agreement is what keeps WW3 at bay, NATO should not have done this, big big no no! Russia has called on all sides to sit down and talk, yet Kiev keeps murdering eastern Ukrainians trying to make them submit. Russia comes out first and up front to show the world what data it has available regarding the incident.

(Russian government has a moral responsibility support the separatists, whether it wants to or not. Just like any other country would do to protect the lives of its ethnic brethren living in a foreign hostile state.)

Now, it mite turn out that the separatists did fire a rocket. There is no evidence for this at the moment except for propaganda coming from NATO and Kiev. Its just as likely that Kiev brought down that plane, whether with a missile or by shadowing the 777 with its own jets, thus then leading the rebels to hit the wrong plane. Some of the evidence seems to support this theory, in particular the Russian defence ministries press conference where they laid out all their facts and satellite data (check it on youtube).

The USA and Kiev have done nothing but spout bullsh1t. Kiev denies they had missiles or planes in the area, and both of them are not too keen to release information that we all want. Why did the plane veer off course, why were ukrainian airforce nearby, why wont Kiev release data, why wont USA release data to the same caliber as Russia?

I find that the most irresponsible actor in all of this is the Kiev government. I find it likely, based on what information is available, that they are somewhat responsible for it. Thats just my opinion for the moment. The investigation will yield results in time, provided it isnt politicized or propagandized as is going on at the moment.

The Separatists AA capacity, as far as i have gathered, is actually run by the Russians via proxy. The Russians are not so irresponsible to shoot down an airliner. Kiev on the otherhand, is completely off its nut and is capable of doing so. Poroshenko with his crocodiles tears for the MH 17 victims, when hes actively involved in murdering large amounts of innocent people himself, is just a disgustingly disingenuous facade.

Just the other day Kiev shelled a supermarket killing woman and children. Instead of condemnation for these war crimes, we have propaganda about how these people are terrorists and corpse looters and such. It beggars belief. Not a single word of sympathy for the people who had a 777 and 300 people rain down on them. Without hardly any help they went out and secured the site, finding body after body, and doing their best under appalling circumstances. As if they are not tramatized enough from what Kiev is doing them. Would the residents of lockerbie have been treated in such a way by the media? There was looting at lockerbie too by the way.

And similarly to lockerbie, the blame will conveniently fall on NATO's geopolitical enemies, whether or not they actually did it at all.

SeanW

Egginacup wrote: »

The youtube video that purported to show a Russian BUK missile system crossing the border back into Russia was actually shot in the Ukrainian town of Krasnoarmeisk which has been under Kiev control since May.
It was a blatant fabrication and anybody who has an interest in the truth would justifiably be angry with those (Kiev) who are engaging in such a deception.

Your proof?

InTheTrees

KahBoom wrote: »

Pathetically poor level of argument in this thread - takes pages and pages of garbage, just to get people to post up their supposed 'evidence', and then the credibility of the evidence vanishes completely upon even the most minute inspection.

Exactly what 'evidence' do you expect to get from Boards.ie?

KahBoom

InTheTrees wrote: »

Its also worth observing that this tactic of covering your ears and just screaming at people that they're wrong and that there's no evidence, and there has to be more evidence and the evidence is fake and everyone is lying, is actually becoming the story itself?

This thread would probably have faded away otherwise.

Russia's reputation is like the sochi olympics. Its a veneer of westernisation covering up shabby disorganization and inefficiency.

Which is why its not hard to believe they could shoot down an airliner.

There is a sum total of two pieces of 'evidence' provided, after pages and pages and pages of discussion:
1: A claim posted on a rebel website of downing a plane, which turned out to just be an unreliable report from the local community, not from the rebel military - not reliable, and posters have given up defending it.
2: An audio recording where there is no impartial independent verification of the recording, and where I'm still waiting for posters to come and provide that verification.

So yea, this seems to be the sum-total of information, that people are relying upon, to cast Russia as being guilty of downing the plane - which is an extremely poor quality of information.

roryc

Egginacup wrote: »

The youtube video that purported to show a Russian BUK missile system crossing the border back into Russia was actually shot in the Ukrainian town of Krasnoarmeisk which has been under Kiev control since May.
It was a blatant fabrication and anybody who has an interest in the truth would justifiably be angry with those (Kiev) who are engaging in such a deception.

Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?

roryc

Fig of Fallacy wrote: »

PutinBot No.4825 reporting for duty

Hahaha

InTheTrees

KahBoom wrote: »

Ya anyone who disagrees with you is a shill/propagandist

Whatever you say Ivan.

As I said its a fascinating thread.

KahBoom

InTheTrees wrote: »

Exactly what 'evidence' do you expect to get from Boards.ie?

What, you think people don't need to back their claims up with evidence?

I'm so glad I prepared a big pot of Borscht! Never expected so many though

deco nate

I see a new one is here,
Were is passport control when you need them?

gandalf

Oh look reinforcements or he could be an escapee from the CT forum

Fig of Fallacy

roryc wrote: »

Hahaha

Ahahaha yeah, its hilarious isnt it, when innocent people get murdered and massacred by Kiev, and when a 777 gets blown out of the sky killing 300 people in unspeakable circumstances.

Nevermind about Israel's ethic cleansing, or the USA's mounting CV of war crimes, or the EU's disgraceful neocolonialist abuse of Ukraine. Nevermind about NATO intentionally destabilizing the world in order to garrison the Ukraine.

Lets not worry about any of that! Lets put sanctions on Russia and have a new cold war, because the retards who run the USA and EU and NATO still cant come up with a better game plan than to simply 'try to take over the world'.

Just hilarious, isnt it.

VinLieger

Fig of Fallacy wrote: »

Ahahaha yeah, its hilarious isnt it, when innocent people get murdered and massacred by Kiev, and when a 777 gets blown out of the sky killing 300 people in unspeakable circumstances.

Nevermind about Israel's ethic cleansing, or the USA's mounting CV of war crimes, or the EU's disgraceful neocolonialist abuse of Ukraine. Nevermind about NATO intentionally destabilizing the world in order to garrison the Ukraine.

Lets not worry about any of that! Lets put sanctions on Russia and have a new cold war, because the retards who run the USA and EU and NATO still cant come up with a better game plan than to simply 'try to take over the world'.

Just hilarious, isnt it.

Cus Putin has absolutely no designs on taking as much territory as he can. Sure hes innocent as a baby.

TBH im surprised Boards.ie even shows up on the Moscow trolls radars

InTheTrees

KahBoom wrote: »

What, you think people don't need to back their claims up with evidence?

Its an internet forum.

Opinion doesnt need evidence.

Putin is an asshole who is raping russia and its people.

See? No evidence needed.

Some aging power hungry little fcuk in russia is dragging us back into the cold war because of his own narcissistic insecurities.