Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

comongethappy

Fig of Fallacy wrote: »

Just hilarious, isnt it.

Aah.... Fresh meat.

Eggy must have got a poor write up from his team leader for failing to convert us to the view of President Shirtless.

Reinforcements have arrived.

darkpagandeath

Fig of Fallacy wrote: »

Ahahaha yeah, its hilarious isnt it, when innocent people get murdered and massacred by Kiev, and when a 777 gets blown out of the sky killing 300 people in unspeakable circumstances.

Nevermind about Israel's ethic cleansing, or the USA's mounting CV of war crimes, or the EU's disgraceful neocolonialist abuse of Ukraine. Nevermind about NATO intentionally destabilizing the world in order to garrison the Ukraine.

Lets not worry about any of that! Lets put sanctions on Russia and have a new cold war, because the retards who run the USA and EU and NATO still cant come up with a better game plan than to simply 'try to take over the world'.

Just hilarious, isnt it.

I'll bite on that nonsense, When pray tell did Russia become a superpower again ? Russia my find it's self in a position like Cuba if it does not change course. Increasing isolation due to delusions of the glory days.

KahBoom

InTheTrees wrote: »

Its an internet forum.

Opinion doesnt need evidence.

Putin is an asshole who is raping russia and its people.

See? No evidence needed.

Some aging power hungry little fcuk in russia is dragging us back into the cold war because of his own narcissistic insecurities.

That's fine - if people are willing to retract the claim, that they have any evidence to back up what they are saying, and are just spouting unbacked opinions, that's fine by me.

If they claim to have evidence though, that isn't merely "a matter of opinion", they can either back it up or they can't.

Egginacup

KahBoom wrote: »

Still waiting for someone to show me some impartial independent verification of that recording - seems that can be discarded as 'evidence' now as well.

According to Nikolai Popov, an audio analysis expert, the audio tape posted by Ukrainian security services is a fake made up of multiple unrelated recordings. There is an article in Itar-Tass about his and other experts' findings. I'm not sure how much weight Mr. Popov's conclusions will carry or whether Itar-Tass will be just dismissed as another propaganda outlet.
So the sequence of events seems to be that a tape was quickly cobbled together purporting to record militants bragging about bringing down the airliner. The tape was analysed by experts and found to be a fake. The Ukrainian security services who released the tape have had nothing more to say on the matter. It appears it was sufficient to get the tape out their, confuse or convince some people and then go quiet, effectively saying "no comment" when challenged about its authenticity.

So the sum total of "proof" that Novorussian militants in concert with Russia shot down the Malaysian airliner amounts to Youtube voice and video recordings of highly questionable veracity, a "Forgive US, Netherlands" headline printed in an anti-government tabloid and some social media postings. Even State Department Spokesperson Marie Harf, in an interview with Associated Press reporter Matt Lee has admitted that this is the sum of it.

Anybody presenting this as the totality of their case to a board of (serious) investigators would be listened to patiently and then politely told to take their crayons and go play in the corner.

Fig of Fallacy

VinLieger wrote: »

Cus Putin has absolutely no designs on taking as much territory as he can. Sure hes innocent as a baby.

TBH im surprised Boards.ie even shows up on the Moscow trolls radars

I dont care about Putin, hes just a guy whos representative of a government / parliament / people.

Russian has shown unbelievable restraint regarding this crisis. It was correct of them to take in Crimea after the vote. Its a pity more regions didnt follow, now we have 100.000 people fleeing east ukraine with Kiev on the rampage. A humanitarian disaster, the making of the USA, EU and NATO.

Not the making of Russia.

What the hell are to talking about with Putin and territory? All i know is he is Ex-KGB and a homophobe. Unsavory to say the least, i do agree. I dont know of him stealing any territory, nor engaging in any type of irresponsible behavior on the worlds stage.

He has consistently thwarted the plans of the criminals in Washington and Brussels. He is respected, at least tacitly, by much of the world for these reasons.

Hey, fig. Your rant has nothing to do with the Malaysian airlines plane and the death of the innocent passengers.

Politics forum is over there

---

> somewhere.

KahBoom

Egginacup wrote: »

According to Nikolai Popov, an audio analysis expert, the audio tape posted by Ukrainian security services is a fake made up of multiple unrelated recordings. There is an article in Itar-Tass about his and other experts' findings. I'm not sure how much weight Mr. Popov's conclusions will carry or whether Itar-Tass will be just dismissed as another propaganda outlet.
So the sequence of events seems to be that a tape was quickly cobbled together purporting to record militants bragging about bringing down the airliner. The tape was analysed by experts and found to be a fake. The Ukrainian security services who released the tape have had nothing more to say on the matter. It appears it was sufficient to get the tape out their, confuse or convince some people and then go quiet, effectively saying "no comment" challenged about its authenticity.

So the sum total of "proof" that Novorussian militants in concert with Russia shot down the Malaysian airliner amounts to Youtube voice and video recordings of highly questionable veracity, a "Forgive US, Netherlands" headline printed in an anti-government tabloid and some social media postings. Even State Department Spokesperson Marie Harf, in an interview with Associated Press reporter Matt Lee has admitted that this is the sum of it.

Anybody presenting this as the totality of their case to a board of (serious) investigators would be listened to patiently and then politely told to take their crayons and go play in the corner.

I had read a bit about that, but the trouble is the recording was of multiple phone calls, which meant it was going to be sectioned up a bit anyway - so that doesn't necessarily mean it was tampered with (doesn't mean it wasn't either, of course) - it would be interesting to see a transcript, showing how it is sectioned together.

In any case though - it's totally lacking impartial independent verification, so isn't really reliable at all on that alone.

Fig of Fallacy

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I'll bite on that nonsense, When pray tell did Russia become a superpower again ? Russia my find it's self in a position like Cuba if it does not change course. Increasing isolation due to delusions of the glory days.

More western propaganda. The worlds opinion is not decided by what Washington and the EU thinks. Ever read a chinese, russian, brazilian, india newspaper? Only in the tesco value toilet paper quality rubbish journalism and opinion pieces of the West is Russia being isolated. Completely and utterly in people imaginations.

The EU should have peace and good relations with Russia. We actually did there for awhile until Washington stuck their nose in. I still hold out hope that Germany will see sense and act responsibly as the EU's largest power-broker.

Fig of Fallacy

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

Hey, fig. Your rant has nothing to do with the Malaysian airlines plane and the death of the innocent passengers.

Politics forum is over there

---

> somewhere.

Everything to do with it.

darkpagandeath

Fig of Fallacy wrote: »

More western propaganda. The worlds opinion is not decided by what Washington and the EU thinks. Ever read a chinese, russian, brazilian, india newspaper? Only in the tesco value toilet paper quality rubbish journalism and opinion pieces of the West is Russia being isolated. Completely and utterly in people imaginations.

The EU should have peace and good relations with Russia. We actually did there for awhile until Washington stuck their nose in. I still hold out hope that Germany will see sense and act responsibly as the EU's largest power-broker.

Really, Then pray tell why are the Billionaires squirming, Russia needs the west more than the west needs Russia. And if you are using words like western propaganda I don’t think we are going to get anywhere.

InTheTrees

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I'll bite on that nonsense, When pray tell did Russia become a superpower again ? Russia my find it's self in a position like Cuba if it does not change course. Increasing isolation due to delusions of the glory days.

Russia is a slight shadow of the old Soviet Union. There's more people in France and Germany than there are in russia.

And they have abysmal social problems due to the corruption and ineffective government. Average Life expectancy in Russia is 70 years old. (Iraq is 69 years).

That's third world levels. China is 75 years for instance.

They're a mess.

pablo128

KahBoom wrote: »

I haven't said "all" of anything is debunked.

Prove this claim of yours:
"The day the plane was shot down one of the Pro-Russian Terrorist leaders claimed responsibility for the crime and then hastily and clumsily deleted the evidence when they realised that a terrible mistake had taken place."

If you have a link proving that, provide it. For all anyone knows - given that nobody is going to search back 135 pages - your claim at having provided links could well be bullshít.

You are proving that you want to waste peoples time, and derail the thread, by avoiding providing any links.

I provided a link earlier in the thread. Go back and look for it. I'm not doing your work for you.

KahBoom

pablo128 wrote: »

I provided a link earlier in the thread. Go back and look for it. I'm not doing your work for you.

That claim was debunked already - the website that posted the claim of responsibility, claimed the information was gathered from the local community that saw the plane go down, not the rebel military - that doesn't provide evidence of who shot the plane down.

InTheTrees

Fig of Fallacy wrote: »

The EU should have peace and good relations with Russia. We actually did there for awhile until Washington stuck their nose in. I still hold out hope that Germany will see sense and act responsibly as the EU's largest power-broker.

The west is terrified of putin.

He's a freak and could do anything at any moment. He's already outlawed voicing criticism of him.

And he's re-writing the constitution as he goes along.

What political post will he invent for himself next?

roryc

Egginacup wrote: »

According to Nikolai Popov, an audio analysis expert, the audio tape posted by Ukrainian security services is a fake made up of multiple unrelated recordings. There is an article in Itar-Tass about his and other experts' findings. I'm not sure how much weight Mr. Popov's conclusions will carry or whether Itar-Tass will be just dismissed as another propaganda outlet.
So the sequence of events seems to be that a tape was quickly cobbled together purporting to record militants bragging about bringing down the airliner. The tape was analysed by experts and found to be a fake. The Ukrainian security services who released the tape have had nothing more to say on the matter. It appears it was sufficient to get the tape out their, confuse or convince some people and then go quiet, effectively saying "no comment" when challenged about its authenticity.

So the sum total of "proof" that Novorussian militants in concert with Russia shot down the Malaysian airliner amounts to Youtube voice and video recordings of highly questionable veracity, a "Forgive US, Netherlands" headline printed in an anti-government tabloid and some social media postings. Even State Department Spokesperson Marie Harf, in an interview with Associated Press reporter Matt Lee has admitted that this is the sum of it.

Anybody presenting this as the totality of their case to a board of (serious) investigators would be listened to patiently and then politely told to take their crayons and go play in the corner.

Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?

InTheTrees

InTheTrees wrote: »

What political poster will he invent for himself next?

Fyp

Fig of Fallacy

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Really, Then pray tell why are the Billionaires squirming, Russia needs the west more than the west needs Russia. And if you are using words like western propaganda I don’t think we are going to get anywhere.

When headlines say "Putin's Missile", then yes, we are firmly in the territory of war propaganda emanating from the halls of NATO with the objective of getting Ukraine into the fold and internationally isolating Russia.

A completely undemocratic and criminal plan, made behind closed doors and behind the backs of the people of the EU and USA. The only way this plan can be executed is by basically creating a fantasy reality where Putin is the new Hitler, who personally fires rockets at civilian jets and who supports terrorism against the benign government of Ukraine.

Total, unsubstantiated, insatiable, criminal, lies of highest order designed to influence western public opinion into hating Russia.

KahBoom

roryc wrote: »

Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?

Learn a little something about the burden of proof - it's up to you to prove it's not fake, and you haven't provided any impartial third party verifications of the recording.

pablo128

Egginacup wrote: »

I have absolutely no idea who said or wrote such a thing.

You have, however, accused me of condoning corpse-robbing and then called for me to be banned from this forum or at least called out to those and wondered why I haven't been banned.

Take caution in your tone and your accusations.

Egginacup wrote: »

I still don't see how this constitutes "condoning" corpse robbing. Perhaps my choice of words was overly "casual" but the "whoopie" wasn't aimed at the alleged crime but rather the report.

You're some boy. When you're called out on your blatant lying, you reply with 'ah yeah, it's grand. Sure that's not what I really meant.'

vidor

It's strange looking at people replying to themselves. This is quite the effort!

loughside

Hate to be such a pain, but..

F.A.O. KomradinaCup and/or fellow kremlin devotees ... attend to this asap (and this will be re-posted until we get an answer)

`Any evidence shown so far (conversation recordings and some amateurish video) have proven to be fake`


Quote:
Originally Posted by darkpagandeath
By whom exactly ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by who_me
Yes, I'd also like to see evidence of that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by loughside
I`m in the queue too...

Links please!!

preferably of the non-kremlin type komrad

*waits patiently*

darkpagandeath

Fig of Fallacy wrote: »

When headlines say "Putin's Missile", then yes, we are firmly in the territory of war propaganda emanating from the halls of NATO with the objective of getting Ukraine into the fold and internationally isolating Russia.

A completely undemocratic and criminal plan, made behind closed doors and behind the backs of the people of the EU and USA. The only way this plan can be executed is by basically creating a fantasy reality where Putin is the new Hitler, who personally fires rockets at civilian jets and who supports terrorism against the benign government of Ukraine.

Total, unsubstantiated, insatiable, criminal, lies of highest order designed to influence western public opinion into hating Russia.

And now we have entered the Twilight zone, You sure it's not the Illuminati ? Or the space wizards ? The lad in power is the one turning western attitudes against Russia.

Egginacup

This talk of Putin's character/sanity, Russia's life expectancy and various other meanderings is completely irrelevant. What has it got to do with the shooting down of a passenger airliner over the Ukraine?

Some people seem to be apportioning blame upon a foreign leader for a crime based on the health of the citizens of his country. That's a stretch if ever there was one.

Whether Putin is a paragon of virtue or a despotic and tyrannical autocrat is irrelevant. It has nothing to do with the discussion about who is to blame for shooting down the airliner.

What's important here are facts and evidence and not smear campaigns against Novorussians as a bunch of bloodthirsty corpse robbers, Russia as a nation of alcoholics and Putin as a madman. This only serves one purpose and that is the purpose of propaganda to skew the discussion.

If you are going to use someone's moral compass as grounds for accusations regarding a heretofore unproven theory then perhaps you should also have a look at Kiev's Poroshenko, the man who is shelling civilians in Eastern Ukraine and refusing to engage a ceasefire so the crash site can be examined.

Fig of Fallacy

darkpagandeath wrote: »

And now we have entered the Twilight zone, You sure it's not the Illuminati ? Or the space wizards ? The lad in power is the one turning western attitudes against Russia.

Feel free to respond in an intelligent fashion, and i will do like wise.

The crash site was examined today.

InTheTrees

Fig of Fallacy wrote: »

When headlines say "Putin's Missile", then yes, we are firmly in the territory of war propaganda.

Well its a pretty easy connection to make. And thats my opinion by the way.

We have a crazed tin pot dictator with an obvious napoleon complex on one hand and us in the west on the other.

And you're trying to tell us strutting little limp dick putin is someone we should be looking up to?

Good luck with that.

Egginacup

roryc wrote: »

Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?

I'm afraid you relinquished any privilege of being replied to when you started calling people names and abusing and sneering as part of your attempts at engaging in discussion.

darkpagandeath

Fig of Fallacy wrote: »

Feel free to respond in an intelligent fashion, and i will do like wise.

I highly doubt that, As the post I was Quoting had a conspiracy level of over 9000. Why would NATO or the US want to Gang up on Russia for no reason ?

InTheTrees

Egginacup wrote: »

This talk of Putin's character/sanity, Russia's life expectancy and various other meanderings is completely irrelevant. What has it got to do with the shooting down of a passenger airliner over the Ukraine?

Because there;s a deranged lunatic in charge of russia right now who could launch ww3 if he wants to?

He's the scary figure behind all of this.

And we cant trust russian opinion. There's no free press, there's no free judiciary.

You dont think if north korea shot down a civilian plane that we wouldnt be questioning the sanity of dear leader Kim?

Egginacup

pablo128 wrote: »

You're some boy. When you're called out on your blatant lying, you reply with 'ah yeah, it's grand. Sure that's not what I really meant.'

I never condoned corpse robbing. Never once. You can say I did all you like but it doesn't make it true.
A SKY reporter was admonished for rifling through a suitcase at the crash site. Does that make him a corpse robber? No.
Even if the crash site was stripped bare of anything valuable, that's still irrelevant. I'm not condoning it at all. Crimes of this nature happen but I'm not too blind to see that it frames the narrative, stokes outrage and condemnation and plays on peoples' emotions. People are a lot easier to hoodwink when they're frightened or angry.