Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

InTheTrees

Egginacup wrote: »

Some people seem to be apportioning blame upon a foreign leader for a crime based on the health of the citizens of his country. That's a stretch if ever there was one.

Eugh. Thats a creepy response.

Russians have a life expectancy equal to egypt while having more oil than saudi arabia.

Its a corrupt government.

Egginacup

InTheTrees wrote: »

Because there;s a deranged lunatic in charge of russia right now who could launch ww3 if he wants to?

He's the scary figure behind all of this.

And we cant trust russian opinion. There's no free press, there's no free judiciary.

You dont think if north korea shot down a civilian plane that we wouldnt be questioning the sanity of dear leader Kim?

This is just blatant scare-mongering.

InTheTrees

Egginacup wrote: »

What's important here are facts and evidence and not smear campaigns against Novorussians

Its an internet discussion. I can say whatever I feel.

Putin is an asshole and is destroying russia.

And we all know he's the one behind this.

InTheTrees

Egginacup wrote: »

This is just blatant scare-mongering.

I wouldnt want to fly over that area. Would you?

roryc

KahBoom wrote: »

Learn a little something about the burden of proof - it's up to you to prove it's not fake, and you haven't provided any impartial third party verifications of the recording.

Unbelievable. So when we simply assume that what is being reported is for the most part true, we are asked (on an internet forum) to provide proof to 'back up our claims', yet when he comes out with his own claims that something has been 'proven false' the burden of proof is on us? Absolute rubbish.

Egginacup wrote: »

I'm afraid you relinquished any privilege of being replied to when you started calling people names and abusing and sneering as part of your attempts at engaging in discussion.

Don't want to answer me? OK then, how about the numerous other posters that have asked you to provide proof that the recordings and videos are false? You posts are worth f**k all until you answer this.

We didn't claim they were true. You claimed they were proven false. The onus to back up the statement sits with you, not us.

Stop avoiding it.

loughside

InTheTrees wrote: »

Its an internet discussion. I can say whatever I feel.

Putin is an asshole and is destroying russia.

And we all know he's the one behind this.

Angela Merkel recently said that talking with Putin was like conversing with someone in a different world,

such a shame the repressed russian people don`t have the freedom or opportunity to dump him in the nearest canal - a treacherous lying moron.

OldRio

Who is in the seat now egg?
Go on tell.
Our secret.
8 or 12 hour shift before you hand over?


Just for the debrief when its all over. Nuances in writing can be detected by even the most casual reader. The lack of reading 'eggs' posts before you start shift is very poor form and shows a lack of continuity and common purpose.
I blame lack of leadership but that's for others to judge.

InTheTrees

They're stuck in the era when putin was in change of the secret intelligence services in the old soviet union.

He has no idea how to deal with the civilised west. He thinks its like chechnya.

InTheTrees

They hate the criticism of putin. I dont think they've been briefed on how to respond.

They'd much rather we stuck to conclusive irrefutable "evidence". Which they can easily deny...

Fascinating. We figure its probably a couple of low paid interns at the russian embassy in Dublin. Earning some brownie points.

Keep it up!

KahBoom

roryc wrote: »

Unbelievable. So when we simply assume that what is being reported is for the most part true, we are asked (on an internet forum) to provide proof to 'back up our claims', yet when he comes out with his own claims that something has been 'proven false' the burden of proof is on us? Absolute rubbish.



Don't want to answer me? OK then, how about the numerous other posters that have asked you to provide proof that the recordings and videos are false? You posts are worth f**k all until you answer this.

We didn't claim they were true. You claimed they were proven false. The onus to back up the statement sits with you, not us.

Stop avoiding it.

It's equally wrong the claim it is proven false, as it is to claim it is proven true - happy?

I didn't claim it was proven false, however other posters have claimed it is true, by presenting it as evidence of Russia's guilt.

smurfjed

British security officials say they have “credible information” that pro-Russian rebels tampered with the crash scene of Malaysian Flight 17 — planting parts from other aircraft at the site in an attempt to foil investigators and push blame for the disaster on Ukrainian forces.
“There is evidence starting to emerge of attempts at tampering with the crash scene, moving bodies and black boxes,” one official said, according to The Times of London.
The official added that rebels interfered with the wreckage in order to strengthen the crash narrative concocted by Russian officials and press, which suggests the Boeing 777 was attacked by a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter that was later shot down by separatists.
“The Russian narrative is to suggest this and then say, ‘Hey, look, here are the bits of a Ukrainian fighter on the site,’ ” he said.

So guys what do you think about this?

Fig of Fallacy

InTheTrees wrote: »

Well its a pretty easy connection to make. And thats my opinion by the way.

We have a crazed tin pot dictator with an obvious napoleon complex on one hand and us in the west on the other.

And you're trying to tell us strutting little limp dick putin is someone we should be looking up to?

Good luck with that.

Putin is democratically elected. Im ignoring your posts in future, I don't entertain liars.

darkpagandeath

smurfjed wrote: »

So guys what do you think about this?

Why would the Ukraine be shooting down planes ? The Separatists don't have an Air force. I have already stated as well that even in a 9/11 type scenario it would be hard to get Air force pilots to shoot down a passenger plane. It does not make any sense suspecting Ukraine of shooting down a passenger jet, On the other hand separatists that have been shooting down Ukrainian planes accidently shooting down a passenger jet fits quite well with established facts.

Donkey Oaty

Fig of Fallacy wrote: »

Putin is democratically elected.

:pac:

Yes, that's true.

And so is Kim Jong-un.

But back to MH-17.

Egginacup

InTheTrees wrote: »

Its an internet discussion. I can say whatever I feel.

Putin is an asshole and is destroying russia.

And we all know he's the one behind this.

We don't know he is behind this. You are entitled to your own opinion. What you are not entitled to are your own facts.
Stating that Putin is responsible "because he's an asshole" is absurd and infantile.

I heard the same "sky is falling", worn out rhetoric about Ahmedinejad and how he was a crazed lunatic taking us all to the brink of the apocalypse.

Fig of Fallacy

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

:pac:

Yes, that's true.

And so is Kim Jong-un.

But back to MH-17.

Excuse me? Putin has been elected several times. Acknowledge that fact please before we go any further. Or else you, like the other liar before you, have zero credibility and should remove yourself from this thread.

Donkey Oaty

Fig of Fallacy wrote: »

Putin has been elected several times. Acknowledge that fact please before we go any further.

Elected, yes. Elected in a free and fair democracy, with a free media, no way.

Acknowledge that fact, please - perhaps outlining the parts of this article about Russia's "managed democracy" that you believe to be untrue, if you like - before we go any further.

Fig of Fallacy

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

Elected, yes. Elected in a free and fair democracy, with a free media, no way.

Acknowledge that fact, please - perhaps outlining the parts of about Russia's "managed democracy" that you believe to be untrue, if you like - before we go any further.

Thank you for acknowledging the truth.

Now, a TIME article that says Putins farts don't smell of roses? I did say somewhere that they do smell of roses? Im not interested in Russia's style of democracy, nor am I interested in Putin at all. I was interested in calling out a couple of posters who were calling Putin a dictator. And im glad we corrected those incorrect statements.

Now, tell me and everyone else whos reading this thread; how is Putin associated with the murder of 300 people on-board mh 17? Ive stated in my first post, categorically, that the ultimate responsibility for this incident lies with the USA, EU and NATO for f**king up Ukraine in the first place.

Do you agree or disagree? And if so, why?

darkpagandeath

Fig of Fallacy wrote: »

Thank you for acknowledging the truth.

Now, a TIME article that says Putins farts don't smell of roses? I did say somewhere that they do smell of roses? Im not interested in Russia's style of democracy, nor am I interested in Putin at all. I was interested in calling out a couple of posters who were calling Putin a dictator. And im glad we corrected those incorrect statements.

Now, tell me and everyone else whos reading this thread; how is Putin associated with the murder of 300 people on-board mh 17? Ive stated in my first post, categorically, that the ultimate responsibility for this incident lies with the USA, EU and NATO for f**king up Ukraine in the first place.

Do you agree or disagree? And if so, why?

Did Ukrainians not declare independence ?

roryc

Egginacup wrote: »

We don't know he is behind this. You are entitled to your own opinion. What you are not entitled to are your own facts.
Stating that Putin is responsible "because he's an asshole" is absurd and infantile.

I heard the same "sky is falling", worn out rhetoric about Ahmedinejad and how he was a crazed lunatic taking us all to the brink of the apocalypse.

Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?
Where is the proof the videos are fake?

I can do this all week, and unlike you, I'm not even getting paid to post here. I just like when trolls are backed into a corner. Surely someone using your account can answer this?

Donkey Oaty

Fig of Fallacy wrote: »

. I was interested in calling out a couple of posters who were calling Putin a dictator. And im glad we corrected those incorrect statements.

No, we demonstrated that those statements are accurate in many ways and also that you have no interest in Putin anyway, so let's move on.

Now, tell me and everyone else whos reading this thread; how is Putin associated with the murder of 300 people on-board mh 17?

Well, a good starting point would be: does he have any control over the weaponry or military activity in that part of Ukraine? This has been discussed at length already.

Ive stated in my first post, categorically, that the ultimate responsibility for this incident lies with the USA, EU and NATO for f**king up Ukraine in the first place.

Do you agree or disagree? And if so, why?

I believe that responsibility for the MH-17 tragedy lies with whoever fired the missile, those that supplied it and those that ordered it to be fired.

Whoever they may be.

Aidric

Fúck me, 10 days offline and come back to see egg is still fighting the fight.

Egginacup wrote: »

What's important here are facts and evidence and not smear campaigns against Novorussians as a bunch of bloodthirsty corpse robbers, Russia as a nation of alcoholics and Putin as a madman. This only serves one purpose and that is the purpose of propaganda to skew the discussion.

Propaganda is rife on both sides btw. In fact it's so bad in Russia that there is no alternative being presented to the government line. Therefore speaking about skewing the discussion is disingenuous.

Egginacup

So, after all the to'ing and fro'ing, two weeks after this airliner crashed all we have is the following:

Accusations that Novorussian militants are responsible with no proof other than some social media postings supposed to implicate them.

A conversation by militants claiming responsibility, the authenticity of which has been dismissed by analysts and the veracity of which has never been given the stamp of approval by other analysts. So either it's fake or it's not.

A Kiev government who ought to be interested in revealing the truth but are witholding flight comma data that would give valuable insight into what happened. The Kiev government are also refusing to establish a ceasefire in the region that would facilitate a forensic investigation.

US satellite, radar and traffic data that would also shed valuable light on what happened being withheld.

Russian radar data showing Ukrainian combat aircraft in the vicinity of the airliner close to the time of loss of contact.

Claims from the US secretary of State that he has proof that Russia is responsible yet his own intelligence people and White House spokespersons and even his own boss state that they have no such evidence.

And that seems to be pretty much it.

Suppressed evidence that would clear the air. Other evidence of laughable flimsiness and the contention that Vladimir Putin is responsible because "he's a bastard".

This case against Russia wouldn't convince an inter cert student with a mildly enquiring mind.

Fig of Fallacy

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Did Ukrainians not declare independence ?

Independence from who? The soviet union/Russia? Ukraine has always been a different country to Russia, even though the border between them has changed many times.

Ukraine is/was on the faultline between east and west. When the soviet union fell, Ukraine stayed within Russia's sphere of influence. Its a divided country, with one part of the population looking west, and another part looking east.

A very sensitive and slow game has been played since the fall of the USSR regarding Ukraine. NATO agreed not to encroach, even tho a lot of eastern block countries came into the EU anyways.

What we witnessed over the last many months is a brazen attempt to yank Ukraine into NATO's sphere. It went wrong and got ugly and now countless people are dead.

Ukraine, realistically, cant be independent because its wedged between two spheres. The use of force by the west was irresponsible. Ukraine should have been left to its own devices as best it could.

NATO views Ukraine as a base from which point missiles at Russia. The EU views Ukraine as a worthless item only to be taken from Russia if possible. The US views Ukraine as a stick to beat Russia with.

Russia view of Ukraine is that it was better the way it was, before this madness began. Of course Russia does not like a western leaning Ukraine, but I think they are more worried about the fact that Ukraine didn't come to this conclusion itself, but was violently forced into by the west.

roryc

Egginacup wrote: »

So, after all the to'ing and fro'ing, two weeks after this airliner crashed all we have is the following:

I am still not willing, or able, to back up the claims I have made on this forum. I think the only logical thing to do now is admit defeat and head back to the Motherland.

Thanks for finally admitting it. Safe flight Egg

Egginacup

smurfjed wrote: »

So guys what do you think about this?

I'm perfectly willing to take it into consideration. Do you have a source or link for the report?

LizT

Mod

Thread closed for review.

LizT

Right, thread re-opened.

First of all, let me apologize that a mod didn't get to deal with this thread sooner, we slipped up there. Thanks to all of you who continued to report posts.

Can I remind you all that calling another poster a troll is a breach of the charter and has been and will continue to be infracted. I understand that it's frustrating to think a poster is trolling and getting away with it but please, don't rise to the bait.

Reporting a suspected troll and then continuing to respond to them is completely counter productive. Also, the ignore feature is a very useful function, use it.

Please continue to report posts or feel free to PM me.

Stay on topic from now on, stop with engaging in pointless back and forth arguments. People will be thread banned for this from now on.

deco nate

Ok, I would still love to see the link that's says the video was a fake, and not just a post saying it was a fake.

Btw, a cease fire was called today by both sides for 24 hours to let investors in to
Look for the rest of the body's.
One good bit of news from this today.

DamagedTrax

deco nate wrote: »

Btw, a cease fire was called today by both sides for 24 hours to let investors in to

depending on which side you're believing, thats either a typo or a possibility :pac: