Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

deco nate

DamagedTrax wrote: »

depending on which side you're believing, thats either a typo or a possibility :pac:

Feckin autocorrect!

LizT

Mod

Forgot to add, from now on provide reputable sources or give descriptions or opinions on links posted. Thread bans will be issued for those who don't.

KahBoom

deco nate wrote: »

Ok, I would still love to see the link that's says the video was a fake, and not just a post saying it was a fake.

Btw, a cease fire was called today by both sides for 24 hours to let investors in to
Look for the rest of the body's.
One good bit of news from this today.

Equally, I would like to see a link proving that it is genuine - nobody has provided a link to any impartial independent verification of the evidence there.

Right now, the current status of evidence posted in the thread so far, trying to pin the blame on Russia, is that none of it really stands scrutiny.

josip

KahBoom wrote: »

Learn a little something about the burden of proof - it's up to you to prove it's not fake, and you haven't provided any impartial third party verifications of the recording.

No, the burden of proof would be on you to rebut the claims

KahBoom

josip wrote: »

No, the burden of proof would be on you to rebut the claims

I haven't claimed anything is fake - if you are claiming Russia is responsible, you have to:
1: Provide evidence showing that, and
2: On the evidence that has been provided, deal with the rebuttals I've provided.

There are two pieces of alleged evidence that have been put forward:
1: The rebel social media website, with the claim of downing the plane, where I was able to show that the website said the claim came from locals in the area, not from rebel military - thus making it not credible.
2: The intercepted phone calls between rebel commanders, where there seems to be no impartial independent verification of that evidence - many major news organizations have been unable to independently verify it either, indicating it may not be verifiable.

So, the first bit of alleged evidence there, people basically gave up defending entirely - that leaves the second bit of alleged evidence:
I don't claim it is fake, but if you claim it is valid evidence, then you need to show some impartial independent verification of it - if you're making that claim, the burden of proof is on you.

deco nate

KahBoom wrote: »

Equally, I would like to see a link proving that it is genuine - nobody has provided a link to any impartial independent verification of the evidence there.

Right now, the current status of evidence posted in the thread so far, trying to pin the blame on Russia, is that none of it really stands scrutiny.

I asked for a link that said it was fake, a poster on here said it was proven to be fake.
Yet when asked a number of times by various posters, has not provided a link to back up
That posters claim!

KahBoom

deco nate wrote: »

I asked for a link that said it was fake, a poster on here said it was proven to be fake.
Yet when asked a number of times by various posters, has not provided a link to back up
That posters claim!

Another poster - not me - claimed it was fake. If anyone claims it is valid evidence, that is a separate claim, requiring its own burden of proof.

If nobody is making that claim, then: Nobody is claiming there is evidence of Russia's guilt - then this means we're all in agreement that, presently, Russia is not proven to be the guilty party?

deco nate

Nice way to null posts, btw
Anything to add to the thread
Besides just trying to null posts?

KahBoom

deco nate wrote: »

Nice way to null posts, btw
Anything to add to the thread
Besides just trying to null posts?

What does 'null posts' mean?

deco nate

KahBoom wrote: »

Another poster - not me - claimed it was fake. If anyone claims it is valid evidence, that is a separate claim, requiring its own burden of proof.

If nobody is making that claim, then: Nobody is claiming there is evidence of Russia's guilt - then this means we're all in agreement that, presently, Russia is not proven to be the guilty party?

Yet you replied to my post....

deco nate

Google it

KahBoom

deco nate wrote: »

Yet you replied to my post....

I did, I said "Equally, I would like to see a link proving that it is genuine - nobody has provided a link to any impartial independent verification of the evidence there".

I wasn't disagreeing with or countering your post there - people still seem to be claiming Russia's guilt, so people should both try to prove evidence is fake (if that is their claim), or that it is genuine evidence (if that is their claim) - right?

deco nate wrote: »

Google it

I did - does anything more meaningful come up for you?
https://www.google.ie/search?q=null+posts

buried

As far as some people looking for actual independently verified evidence, you cant blame these people for wanting to see it or not trusting the western governments and their mainstream arm of the media, and you don't need to label such people as 'shrills' 'trolls' or 'putinbots' or whatever. On the actual day of the tragedy, 'sky news' claimed 20 minutes after the aircraft hit the ground that Russia was responsible, literally 20 minutes after the first report. I seen it, I'm sure many here seen it too - at the exact same time the Malaysian and Dutch authorities couldn't ascertain if MH-17 had crashed, was bombed or was shot at, which is good common sense - but some people in a London TV studio know exactly what happened 20 minutes after the incident?? How many other airline tragedies are tried and solved by London's media 20 minutes after they occur thousands of miles away??

Add to that Air India's statement to 'The Times' of India about one of its airliner crews flying near to MH-17 hearing Ukrainian Air Traffic Control give a direct order to MH-17 to change course to a direct flight path into the conflict zone ( Which the Ukrainians have denied and have confiscated all ATC documentation and recordings), some of the official lines we are being fed by our own western media wires are dodgy as hell, and you cant blame some folk who might want to question what they are being told after the last 20 years of serious and outrageous lies western governments have fed us whether it be about politics, global conflict or economics. The governments of the West don't even trust each other! Look at the USA's covert spying on Germany and other European nations. If they dont trust each other why should they expect the ordinary citizen to trust what any of them say or claim? Its a total mess anyways, and the lives of 300 innocent people are being used in the most blatant shadowy propaganda battle we all have ever seen, but don't forget who started it - the likes of Rupert Murdoch's news outlets, Fox and sky- claiming assumptions as total facts within minutes before anything concrete and definite was established.

The Times of India link - http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Air-India-flight-was-90-seconds-away-when-missile-struck-Malaysia-Airlines-Flight-MH17/articleshow/38702536.cms

Egginacup

deco nate wrote: »

I asked for a link that said it was fake, a poster on here said it was proven to be fake.
Yet when asked a number of times by various posters, has not provided a link to back up
That posters claim!

Let's deal with one piece of evidence at a time. There is a video showing a BUK missile battery or several them allegedly crossing the Ukrainian border back into Russia.

Now this alone is completely meaningless. It establishes absolutely nothing. It could be, for all intents and purposes, a guy on a motorcycle.

The video shows that it was a convoy of military materiel being driven along a road nowhere near the Russian border. People who are knowledgeable about that area have come out and stated that the vehicles are trundling by a construction supplies factory that is on Gorkii Street in Kransnoamerirsk. Others are looking at the billboard of a car dealership that is also in the same town. Krasnoameirsk is almost 100 miles from the Russian border.

It is a home-made piece of video with nobody claiming what they witnessed or even reporting what they have seen.

This in and off itself is not credible. Perhaps the video taken has metadata revealing the GPS coordinates of the person doing the recording.

Maybe or maybe not.
One can take a photograph nowadays and it will show the latitude and longitudinal coordinates of the photographer.

To prove this was taken where it was claimed to have been taken, would not GPS embedded metadata add veracity to that?

But perhaps it was taken with a phone or camera without said features. Either way I have doubts.

Like I mentioned, people familiar with the area are stating that this piece of footage was nowhere near the Russian border but in Krasnoameirsk that has been under Kiev control since May.

deco nate

Egginacup wrote: »

Let's deal with one piece of evidence at a time. There is a video showing a BUK missile battery or several them allegedly crossing the Ukrainian border back into Russia.

Now this alone is completely meaningless. It establishes absolutely nothing. It could be, for all intents and purposes, a guy on a motorcycle.

The video shows that it was a convoy of military materiel being driven along a road nowhere near the Russian border. People who are knowledgeable about that area have come out and stated that the vehicles are trundling by a construction supplies factory that is on Gorkii Street in Kransnoamerirsk. Others are looking at the billboard of a car dealership that is also in the same town. Krasnoameirsk is almost 100 miles from the Russian border.

It is a home-made piece of video with nobody claiming what they witnessed or even reporting what they have seen.

This in and off itself is not credible. Perhaps the video taken has metadata revealing the GPS coordinates of the person doing the recording.

Maybe or maybe not.
One can take a photograph nowadays and it will show the latitude and longitudinal coordinates of the photographer.

To prove this was taken where it was claimed to have been taken, would not GPS embedded metadata add veracity to that?

But perhaps it was taken with a phone or camera without said features. Either way I have doubts.

Like I mentioned, people familiar with the area are stating that this piece of footage was nowhere near the Russian border but in Krasnoameirsk that has been under Kiev control since May.

You said it was proven to be
Fake, can you post a link to it,
Or whatever site you heard this from.

As in the mod said to post links to claims, and not
Just post without backing
Up your post?

deco nate

LizT wrote: »

Mod

Forgot to add, from now on provide reputable sources or give descriptions or opinions on links posted. Thread bans will be issued for those who don't.

Egg... Quoted for clarity

Fig of Fallacy

Interesting piece up on GlobalReserch.

---

"According to the report of German pilot and airlines expert Peter Haisenko, the MH17 Boeing 777 was not brought down by a missile.

What he observed from the available photos were perforations of the cockpit:

"The facts speak clear and loud and are beyond the realm of speculation: The cockpit shows traces of shelling! You can see the entry and exit holes. The edge of a portion of the holes is bent inwards. These are the smaller holes, round and clean, showing the entry points most likely that of a 30 millimeter caliber projectile."

---

Early days for a hypothesis yet really.

(im new member and cant post url. http://www.globalresearch.ca/support-mh17-truth-osce-monitors-identify-shrapnel-like-holes-indicating-shelling-no-firm-evidence-of-a-missile-attack/5394324 is where the article is)

darkpagandeath

Fig of Fallacy wrote: »

Interesting piece up on GlobalReserch.

---

"According to the report of German pilot and airlines expert Peter Haisenko, the MH17 Boeing 777 was not brought down by a missile.

What he observed from the available photos were perforations of the cockpit:

"The facts speak clear and loud and are beyond the realm of speculation: The cockpit shows traces of shelling! You can see the entry and exit holes. The edge of a portion of the holes is bent inwards. These are the smaller holes, round and clean, showing the entry points most likely that of a 30 millimeter caliber projectile."

---

Early days for a hypothesis yet really.

(im new member and cant post url. www.globalresearch.ca/german-pilot-speaks-out-shocking-analysis-of-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/5394111 is where the article is)

That could of all happened while the separatists were helping secure the site, Did they not already verify and explosion on the Flight data recorder.

danniemcq

Fig of Fallacy wrote: »

(im new member and cant post url. www.globalresearch.ca/german-pilot-speaks-out-shocking-analysis-of-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/5394111 is where the article is)

Yeah I'm gonna call out that site to be quite far out there when it comes to ummm level headed research.

Its no BBC or Reuters now is it?

deco nate

http://www.anderweltonline.com/wissenschaft-und-technik/luftfahrt-2014/shocking-analysis-of-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/
And is this guy an expert
In artillery fire??
Really?
Or is he trying to make a name for himself, or.... Has he been paid to say this?

Again I will ask you to look back at the mods post,
Liz t

Fig of Fallacy

darkpagandeath wrote: »

That could of all happened while the separatists were helping secure the site, Did they not already verify and explosion on the Flight data recorder.

The only thing that was verified by the recordings was that whatever happened, happened instantly.

If those are holes from an anti tank jet cannon as mentioned........ well, we already know that the ukraine airforce had a jet very close by.

deco nate

LizT wrote: »

Mod

Forgot to add, from now on provide reputable sources or give descriptions or Thread bans will be issued for those who don't.

Again, quoted for clarity!
(also edited down, to make a point.)

darkpagandeath

Fig of Fallacy wrote: »

The only thing that was verified by the recordings was that whatever happened, happened instantly.

If those are holes from an anti tank jet cannon as mentioned........ well, we already know that the ukraine airforce had a jet very close by.

Again I will ask, What possible reason would Ukraine have to shoot down a passenger jet. They could not misidentify it as an enemy plane, As the enemy has no Air force. Same if it was the leaders plane or a Russian jet that would lead to Direct war with Russia. The only people in the Area that were shooting down Planes were the separatists. I would like reasoned thinking not some CT, There are a lot of CT developing around this. So could someone please give me any reason why the Ukraine would shoot down a passenger jet ?

And I would assume for the sake of argument, Shooting a Pressurised passenger jet with 30 mm explosive rounds or depleted Uranium would not just leave 30 mm holes.

deco nate

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Again I will ask, What possible reason would Ukraine have to shoot down a passenger jet. They could not misidentify it as an enemy plane, As the enemy has no Air force. Same if it was the leaders plane or a Russian jet that would lead to Direct war with Russia. The only people in the Area that were shooting down Planes were the separatists. I would like reasoned thinking not some CT, There are a lot of CT developing around this. So could someone please give me any reason why the Ukraine would shoot down a passenger jet ?

Because the us/Un told them to, duh!!

Egginacup

deco nate wrote: »

You said it was proven to be
Fake, can you post a link to it,
Or whatever site you heard this from.

As in the mod said to post links to claims, and not
Just post without backing
Up your post?

Deco, this is not a game of one-upmanship.

If you are familiar with the video of a convoy supposedly moving back to Russia after an alleged attack on a passenger airliner then you also ought to ask the same questions as I.

Is it anywhere near the Russian border?
I'm not from the area. I've never been there but those who do know the area state that it is in Krasnoameirsk. I can't prove that what they are saying is correct since again I have no idea about that area, those buildings and those signs.

But much like anything else, the footage is doubtful. Dubious. And until things are proven ironclad then I'm afraid I can't be swayed.

We are talking about apportioning blame here based on opinion and hearsay. Blame, based on nothing other than prejudice, that could punish those who are non-culpable.
I need ABSOLUTE proof that someone is guilty before I give my approval that they should be punished.

These standards don't seem to apply to many on this forum. A baseless accusation or an inkling of suspicion appear to be sufficient to level guilt and ultimately punishment/retribution.

My price is higher than rage and it's higher than settling for a mob vote. There are people out there with the skill and expertise and wherewithall to get to the bottom of this. There are also those with the same qualifications to do the opposite for whatever reason.

I have not heard a single convincing argument implicating either the Novorussian militia or the Russians in this crime.

Digressing back to the video and audio segments that count as the bulk of the proof against Russia and Novorussian militants, I will if you wish try to dig up accounts by those who live in or are familiar with the area of Krasnoameirsk and see if their talk of this area is more credible than my speaking on their behalf.

Fig of Fallacy

I was linking an article by Michel Chossudovsky, Professor of Economics at the University of Ottawa.

Wrong corrected link by the mod that corrected my last post. Altho similar if not same article.

Article is “Support MH17 Truth”: OSCE Monitors Identify “Shrapnel-Like Holes” indicating Shelling. No Evidence of a Missile Attack. Shot Down by a Military Aircraft?"

(Mod posted and all corrected, ty MOD)

Egginacup

deco nate wrote: »

Egg... Quoted for clarity

Is this now some kind of condescending provocation?

I'm not going to rise to that either.

darkpagandeath

Egginacup wrote: »

Let's deal with one piece of evidence at a time. There is a video showing a BUK missile battery or several them allegedly crossing the Ukrainian border back into Russia.

Now this alone is completely meaningless. It establishes absolutely nothing. It could be, for all intents and purposes, a guy on a motorcycle.

The video shows that it was a convoy of military materiel being driven along a road nowhere near the Russian border. People who are knowledgeable about that area have come out and stated that the vehicles are trundling by a construction supplies factory that is on Gorkii Street in Kransnoamerirsk. Others are looking at the billboard of a car dealership that is also in the same town. Krasnoameirsk is almost 100 miles from the Russian border.

It is a home-made piece of video with nobody claiming what they witnessed or even reporting what they have seen.

This in and off itself is not credible. Perhaps the video taken has metadata revealing the GPS coordinates of the person doing the recording.

Maybe or maybe not.
One can take a photograph nowadays and it will show the latitude and longitudinal coordinates of the photographer.

To prove this was taken where it was claimed to have been taken, would not GPS embedded metadata add veracity to that?

But perhaps it was taken with a phone or camera without said features. Either way I have doubts.

Like I mentioned, people familiar with the area are stating that this piece of footage was nowhere near the Russian border but in Krasnoameirsk that has been under Kiev control since May.

Have not seen that on any reputable news site, Is there a link to where this information is coming from ?

Fig of Fallacy

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Again I will ask, What possible reason would Ukraine have to shoot down a passenger jet. They could not misidentify it as an enemy plane, As the enemy has no Air force. Same if it was the leaders plane or a Russian jet that would lead to Direct war with Russia. The only people in the Area that were shooting down Planes were the separatists. I would like reasoned thinking not some CT, There are a lot of CT developing around this. So could someone please give me any reason why the Ukraine would shoot down a passenger jet ?

And I would assume for the sake of argument, Shooting a Pressurised passenger jet with 30 mm explosive rounds or depleted Uranium would not just leave 30 mm holes.

Ukraine has shelled into Russia already. They are looking to provoke at every opportunity. They have engaged in murder and mayhem in eastern Ukraine using their entire military arsenal against the population there. A UN report recently said that 1,100 people are now dead because if this, the vast majority of those people were civilians.

Im not saying they did it, yet, but i will repeat the very level headed and reasonable assumption that the Kiev government is by far the loosest cannon in the field and they have already racked up a substantial death toll with no regard for civilians lives.

deco nate

Egginacup wrote: »

Deco, this is not a game of one-upmanship.

If you are familiar with the video of a convoy supposedly moving back to Russia after an alleged attack on a passenger airliner then you also ought to ask the same questions as I.

Is it anywhere near the Russian border?
I'm not from the area. I've never been there but those who do know the area state that it is in Krasnoameirsk. I can't prove that what they are saying is correct since again I have no idea about that area, those buildings and those signs.

But much like anything else, the footage is doubtful. Dubious. And until things are proven ironclad then I'm afraid I can't be swayed.

We are talking about apportioning blame here based on opinion and hearsay. Blame, based on nothing other than prejudice, that could punish those who are non-culpable.
I need ABSOLUTE proof that someone is guilty before I give my approval that they should be punished.

These standards don't seem to apply to many on this forum. A baseless accusation or an inkling of suspicion appear to be sufficient to level guilt and ultimately punishment/retribution.

My price is higher than rage and it's higher than settling for a mob vote. There are people out there with the skill and expertise and wherewithall to get to the bottom of this. There are also those with the same qualifications to do the opposite for whatever reason.

I have not heard a single convincing argument implicating either the Novorussian militia or the Russians in this crime.

Digressing back to the video and audio segments that count as the bulk of the proof against Russia and Novorussian militants, I will if you wish try to dig up accounts by those who live in or are familiar with the area of Krasnoameirsk and see if their talk of this area is more credible than my speaking on their behalf.

Egg, this is not about one man upmanship.

You have stated on here many, many times that it was proven fake, yet not once have you provided a link to back up your claims.
Despite many posters asking for the link so we can decide for ourselves.

Any time it was asked of you, you did not reply to the requests.

Can you see the problem I, and many others have with this?

I will ask you again, please provide the link that you have said that it has been proven that the video is fake!