Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

gandalf

Sorry Egg and other Puntinistas and "Bishop" I was out and about today so couldn't reply earlier.

Please see the following definition of terrorism.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/terrorism

1.
the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.
2.
the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
3.
a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.

Now lets examine a number of reports and articles about the Eastern Ukraine region under the rule of the Pro-Russian Terrorists.

http://www.unmultimedia.org/radio/english/2014/07/un-warns-of-serious-human-rights-violations-in-eastern-ukraine/#.U9vLBGOCiKU

In a report detailing human rights violations is eastern Ukraine, the High Commissioner says there is a total breakdown of law and order in the region with armed groups inflicting a reign of fear and terror over the civilian population.

The report says over 1,100 people have been killed and more than 3,400 wounded in eastern Ukraine since mid-April.

It says armed groups were involved in abductions, detention, torture and execution in order to intimidate and to exercise their power over the civilian population.

In an article I already quoted a resident of one of the inflicted towns calls them terrorists. If the people on the ground consider them terrorists then who am I to question that.

Business Insider reached out to speak with a witness who gave an account of how the situation was being perceived by Donetsk residents. The man identified himself as a Donetsk-born 40-year-old working in the coal industry. He wished to remain anonymous because, as he put it, speaking in Russian, "the town is run by the terrorists, and I do not want to suffer."

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/donetsk-resident-speaks-about-malaysia-airlines-crash-2014-7#ixzz39A6SnnLI

Two Ukrainian actors were detained for 70 days because they passed on the wrong news to someone in a cafe. They were beaten and detained for no real reason at all.

http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-yurov-grishchuk-kidnapped/25475161.html

"Those actively involved in this movement are lowlifes, petty thugs, criminals, former police officers and soldiers, and people using heavy drugs," he says. "As before, I suspect these people are taking orders from Russians."

The curtailment of the freedom of the press certainly would fall into the definition of terrorist activity I am sure you would agree.

http://www.cpj.org/blog/2014/07/mission-journal-attacks-on-journalists-in-ukraine-.php

"There are no [independent] Ukrainian journalists left in Donetsk," said Aleksei Matsuka, chief editor of the regional news website Novosti Donbassa (News of Donbass). "They have fled the region since pro-Russia separatists started targeting and kidnapping reporters," Matsuka told CPJ during our brief meeting in Kiev.

Russian Nazi's on the side of the Pro-Russian Terrorists, hmmm can some one say hypocrites

http://www.jamestown.org/single/?tx_ttnews[tt_news]=42481&no_cache=1#.U9vUdWOCiKU

Other irregular forces have also been involved, such as hardline Russian nationalists. Now it appears there are connections to the most extreme nationalists, Russia’s neo-Nazi movement. Posting on Facebook, Alexander Belov, the leader of the banned Movement Against Illegal Immigration (known by its Russian acronym DPNI), announced the death in Donetsk of Sergei Vorotsev. Vorotsev was a former organizer for the DPNI in the Moscow Region town of Korolev (Official Facebook page of DPNI, June 4). According to the same posting, Vorotsev was killed in the battle for the Donetsk airport.

Hmmmm it seems that the so called "separatists" are not popular with all the residents of Donetsk.

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-28583147

The group, Murzilka, gets its name from a Soviet-era children's magazine. The artists say they want to show people that the rebels are not here to stay and there is resistance to their presence in the city. The guerrilla artists try to remain anonymous as as some of them fear for their lives. But they have a website where they show how they produce their art.

Mass grave uncovered after the town of Slovyansk was liberated by the Ukrainian forces. Executions of this type would be considered as actions of terrorists by a large proportion of right thinking people.

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/7/24/grave-mass-slovyansk.html

Two of the bodies in the grave are believed to be those of Ruvim and Albert Pavenko, ages 24 and 30. Sons of a local Protestant minister, they were kidnapped June 8 after attending a service at their church and then they were shot, according to Anton Gerashchenko, an aide to the minister of interior affairs.

Their abduction coincided with the occupation of Slovyansk by pro-Moscow rebels, who claimed the industrial city of 120,000 as part of the self-declared Donetsk People’s Republic.

The murder of local politicians who oppose your views would also be seen as the actions of terrorists.

http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/04/24/uk-ukraine-crisis-politician-video-idINKBN0DA01620140424

Ukraine's interior ministry said he was seen being bundled into a car by masked men in camouflage later that day. His body was found on Saturday near Slaviansk.

He and another, unidentified, man appeared to have been tortured and dumped alive in a river to drown, police concluded.

So there you go from my perspective I am quite entitled to call the people illegally fighting the government in the Ukraine as terrorists. The leaders are Russians with links to Russian intelligence. A number of the terrorist are actually mercenaries from outside the Ukraine with a large number of Chechans involved.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/dcf5e16e-e5bc-11e3-aeef-00144feabdc0.html#axzz39AMVWTkq

Dozens of Chechen militants have joined the fighting on the side of pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine in a development that threatens to further escalate the violence in the country.

On Tuesday, half-a-dozen armed men approached by the Financial Times outside a Donetsk regional hospital confirmed that they were part of a Chechen unit that had travelled to Donetsk one week ago to fight alongside the separatists.

Now I have backed up my assertion that Pro-Russian TERRORISTS are operating against the legitimate forces of the sovereign state of Ukraine. Can you now provide proof that they aren't and can you now respond and provide proof that the TERRORISTS didn't have a BUK system as per my earlier post which included multiple links from multiple sources.

I look forward with baited breath to your responses to this, depending which one of you is on shift at the moment.

roryc

LizT wrote: »

Mod

Forgot to add, from now on provide reputable sources or give descriptions or opinions on links posted. Thread bans will be issued for those who don't.

*Ahem*

Egginacup wrote: »

Kiev has shown as evidence conversations and videos proven to be fakes and mock-ups.

Egginacup wrote: »

Any evidence shown so far (conversation recordings and some amateurish video) have proven to be fake. Moscow by contrast has released verifiable ATC, satellie and radar evidence showing that Kiev may indeed have been responsible.

Egginacup

gandalf wrote: »

So

Please see the following definition of terrorism.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/terrorism



Now lets examine a number of reports and articles about the Eastern Ukraine region under the rule of the Pro-Russian Terrorists.

http://www.unmultimedia.org/radio/english/2014/07/un-warns-of-serious-human-rights-violations-in-eastern-ukraine/#.U9vLBGOCiKU



In an article I already quoted a resident of one of the inflicted towns calls them terrorists. If the people on the ground consider them terrorists then who am I to question that.



Two Ukrainian actors were detained for 70 days because they passed on the wrong news to someone in a cafe. They were beaten and detained for no real reason at all.

http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-yurov-grishchuk-kidnapped/25475161.html



The curtailment of the freedom of the press certainly would fall into the definition of terrorist activity I am sure you would agree.

http://www.cpj.org/blog/2014/07/mission-journal-attacks-on-journalists-in-ukraine-.php



Russian Nazi's on the side of the Pro-Russian Terrorists, hmmm can some one say hypocrites

http://www.jamestown.org/single/?tx_ttnews[tt_news]=42481&no_cache=1#.U9vUdWOCiKU



Hmmmm it seems that the so called "separatists" are not popular with all the residents of Donetsk.

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-28583147



Mass grave uncovered after the town of Slovyansk was liberated by the Ukrainian forces. Executions of this type would be considered as actions of terrorists by a large proportion of right thinking people.

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/7/24/grave-mass-slovyansk.html



The murder of local politicians who oppose your views would also be seen as the actions of terrorists.

http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/04/24/uk-ukraine-crisis-politician-video-idINKBN0DA01620140424



So there you go from my perspective I am quite entitled to call the people illegally fighting the government in the Ukraine as terrorists. The leaders are Russians with links to Russian intelligence. A number of the terrorist are actually mercenaries from outside the Ukraine with a large number of Chechans involved.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/dcf5e16e-e5bc-11e3-aeef-00144feabdc0.html#axzz39AMVWTkq



Now I have backed up my assertion that Pro-Russian TERRORISTS are operating against the legitimate forces of the sovereign state of Ukraine. Can you now provide proof that they aren't and can you now respond and provide proof that the TERRORISTS didn't have a BUK system as per my earlier post which included multiple links from multiple sources.

I look forward with baited breath to your responses to this, depending which one of you is on shift at the moment.

I would gladly engage you in a cogent and civil fashion. In fact I think we may have a lost to discuss.

Launching, as you did, in an abusive and petulant manner with "....Egg and other Puntinistas and "Bishop"..."

I'm doing my best to debate and discuss this very important issue. Standing in the face of abuse is one thing. Standing alone in the face of ad hominem attacks is not easy either.

Were you to engage me in debate then I would hope, or at least expect, that you didn't label your verbal adversaries with buttons as puerile and glib as "puntinistas".

Nonamigo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiXjXmZ3NYg

so maybe there WAS a fighter jet following mh17....

Egginacup

I posted this on Friday. I'll post it again:


The possibilities are these that the airliner was attacked and shot down:

1. By Novorussian militants on purpose.
2. By Novorussian militants by mistake.
3. By Ukrainian forces on purpose.
4. By Ukrainian forces by mistake.
5. By other actors in the area on purpose.
6. By other actors in the area by mistake.

If there is another category not covered by the aforementioned then let me know. But thus far these are the possibilities.
Can we go through each of these eventualities very simply and very impartially and discuss the possibilities, probabilities, and likelihoods?

I'll start with point 1. that the Novorussian militants shot the plane down on purpose. I suppose it's possible. But why? If a nutcase in charge of a BUK battery did this just for the fun of it then I would imagine his superiors would not only apologise for the loose cannon but would also take him out the back and have him shot. That is of course if it was a loose cannon. If the entire Novorussian militia from boots to brass were au fait with simply murdering a bunch of civilians from so many different countries then why?

So that's question one. I may have completely missed something regarding the Novorussians deliberately doing this so if you pick up on it then feel free to interject. But for now I'd like to know your thoughts on possibility number 1.



So if nobody objects then can we go through this possibility and then move on to the next one?

smurfjed

Nonamigo,

The google translate for the blurb under your video is... "OSCE officer found on the Boeing bullet holes heavy machine gun"... In the interview he goes on to say that it looks like machine gun fire, and we didn't see any missile damage..... OK that fine, except he then says that he doesn't have the training to identify missile damage! So how can he say that it was gun damage and not missile damage?
Sorry but he should have kept his mouth shut.
Once again please remember that a SU-25 (mentioned in previous messages as it carries anti tank shells) doesn't have the capability to fly above 23,000 feet, and there is no way that it could ever hit a moving aircraft 10,000 feet higher than it.

smurfjed

smurfjed wrote: »

But as a scientifically qualified person you will understand the information that i posted about aircraft operating ceilings and relative velocities. So it should be easy for you to rebut Peter Haisenko.

Egg, following your post #2233, I'm still waiting for a response to this

Nonamigo

smurfjed wrote: »

Nonamigo,

The google translate for the blurb under your video is... "OSCE officer found on the Boeing bullet holes heavy machine gun"... In the interview he goes on to say that it looks like machine gun fire, and we didn't see any missile damage..... OK that fine, except he then says that he doesn't have the training to identify missile damage! So how can he say that it was gun damage and not missile damage?
Sorry but he should have kept his mouth shut.
Once again please remember that a SU-25 (mentioned in previous messages as it carries anti tank shells) doesn't have the capability to fly above 23,000 feet, and there is no way that it could ever hit a moving aircraft 10,000 feet higher than it.

I just wanted to point out that there is something that LOOKS like machine gun holes. He is not an expert to identify the missile damage and that's ok, I'm just trying to say that maybe we shouldn't jump to conclusions too quickly, maybe this case is not that simple. Only time will tell. SU-25 can fly up to 10000m but I don't think it's weapons would be working properly at that altitude. It could have been MIG-29, for example. That would explain it all. Has enybody heard of the pilot's interview? I read somewhere that the pilot who was following the MH 17 was interviewed by some newspaper but I can not find any proof of it.
P.S. As you probably understand I am Russian myself and no, I am not getting paid by Kremlin It's just that this subject worries me and I follow numerous threads about it. I do have a good few links to some material that could (or maybe not) change your mind regarding this whole situation but they are in Russian language and would be of no use to you. I wouldn't really even bother posting them as I more or less know most of you reaction when you would hear a Russian person (be it a sound technician, military expert etc.) talking about what happened with MH17 and why this situation is not as clear as west wants it to look like.
And, just to make it clear, in this situation I'm not supporting Putin, Obama Poroshenko or any other politician. I want the person responsible for this crime to be punished. Regardless of who it is. I'm just tired of people blaming Russians for this and that without any evidence. That is all I wanted to say.

gandalf

So basically Egginacup because you are a bit precious you are unable to debate with people. Thanks that has confirmed you are all bluster and no substance.

So you haven't countered the evidence that I posted about the Buk earlier so we can now assume that you agree it was in the hands of the Pro-Russian Terrorists (or separatists as the apologists call them).

We can also assume with your inability to counter all the links I provided that you concede that people have every right to call them TERRORISTS based on their actions.

Now please reply to the others who have asked you for evidence or can they assume you are talking tosh as well

Have a nice day !

smurfjed

Nonamigo

I'm just tired of people blaming Russians for this and that without any evidence

I don't think that anyone here is actually saying that a "Russian" pressed the launch button.

As for the SU-25.

Service ceiling: 7,000 m[98] (22,965 ft) clean, 5,000 m (16,000 ft) with max weapons

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-25 It also states that the max speed is M.80, which is slower than a B777.

Or if we look at the design of the SA-11,

A proximity fuse aboard the missile determines when it will detonate, creating an expanding fragmentation pattern of missile components and warhead to intercept and destroy the target. A proximity fuse improves the "probability of kill" given the missile and target closure rates, which can be more than 2,000 miles per hour (3,200 km/h) (or more than 3,000 feet per second (910 m/s)).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system

I read somewhere that the pilot who was following the MH 17 was interviewed by some newspaper but I can not find any proof of it.

As the MOD's have pointed out, statements like his require a link.

would be of no use to you. I wouldn't really even bother posting them as I more or less know most of you reaction when you would hear a Russian person (be it a sound technician, military expert etc.) talking about what happened with MH17

You are making an assumption that might be incorrect. If the video is legitimate, and the person presents proof rather than conjecture, then go ahead and post it. For me, the word of the Russian military is as legitimate as the Ukrainians or Americans PROVIDED that all sources supply PROOF.

KahBoom

So just to be clear: Nobody is still claiming there is credible evidence, that Russia is responsible, at this point - right?

This is separate to other peoples claim, that evidence is fake - nobody has shown that it is credible to back a claim of Russian guilt either.

miss tickle

Nonamigo wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiXjXmZ3NYg

so maybe there WAS a fighter jet following mh17....

This bbc news report was deleted from their website, the local eyewitnesses say they say another plane alsongside the passenger jet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8gmNY0v5RM

smurfjed

This bbc news report was deleted from their website, the local eyewitnesses say they say another plane alsongside the passenger jet.

But you will find other comments in this thread about the weather and that the area was covered in cloud.

darkpagandeath

Nonamigo wrote: »

I just wanted to point out that there is something that LOOKS like machine gun holes. He is not an expert to identify the missile damage and that's ok, I'm just trying to say that maybe we shouldn't jump to conclusions too quickly, maybe this case is not that simple. Only time will tell. SU-25 can fly up to 10000m but I don't think it's weapons would be working properly at that altitude. It could have been MIG-29, for example. That would explain it all. Has enybody heard of the pilot's interview? I read somewhere that the pilot who was following the MH 17 was interviewed by some newspaper but I can not find any proof of it.
P.S. As you probably understand I am Russian myself and no, I am not getting paid by Kremlin It's just that this subject worries me and I follow numerous threads about it. I do have a good few links to some material that could (or maybe not) change your mind regarding this whole situation but they are in Russian language and would be of no use to you. I wouldn't really even bother posting them as I more or less know most of you reaction when you would hear a Russian person (be it a sound technician, military expert etc.) talking about what happened with MH17 and why this situation is not as clear as west wants it to look like.
And, just to make it clear, in this situation I'm not supporting Putin, Obama Poroshenko or any other politician. I want the person responsible for this crime to be punished. Regardless of who it is. I'm just tired of people blaming Russians for this and that without any evidence. That is all I wanted to say.

So having the first plane debunked due to it's anti tank role. As it fires 30 mm Depleted uranium or explosive shells the plane now changes ? Mig-29s have a 30 mm cannon as well that fire a number of AP rounds or Explosive. And Tbh none of these planes fit as attacking a passenger jet as they do not fire on planes head to head. Any fighter pilot will tell you that. And the 30 mm rounds are designed to shoot down other armoured fighter jets. Just think of the damage they do to a large pressurised passenger plane there would not be nice 30 mm holes left in it.

Ditch

deco nate wrote: »

Btw, a cease fire was called today by both sides for 24 hours to let investors in to Look for the rest of the body's. One good bit of news from this today.

Dear god ..... And they're carrying buckets to put the bits in! That sort of brings it into focus, doesn't it?

http://www.mail.com/int/news/europe/3018840-ukraine-body-parts-retrieved-jet-crash-site.html#.1272-stage-hero1-6

Egginacup

smurfjed wrote: »

Egg, following your post #2233, I'm still waiting for a response to this

The answer is Smurf that I don't know. I think I read that the alleged fighters only have an operating ceiling of 10,000 and if so would in no way be able to engage a high altitude airliner. I find it bizarre that a 21st century jet fighter could only reach a third of the height of WW2 propeller fighters.

roryc

What about the evidence that the videos are fake? There have been a lot of comments in this thread, the 417 requests from numerous posters may have fallen through the cracks. Don't worry though, I'll keep reminding you.

KahBoom wrote: »

So just to be clear: Nobody is still claiming there is credible evidence, that Russia is responsible, at this point - right?

Don't remember anyone saying the Russians are definitively responsible. It's logical to assume this is the most likely scenario, and as mentioned numerous times the most obvious scenario is likely the reality. Some people just love arguing against the flow of the tide though. Theres never been a worldwide event which hasn't had a few conspiracy theorists coming up with illogical scenarios. Yes, its pathetic. But its also quite funny.

smurfjed

As for the SU-25.
Quote:
Service ceiling: 7,000 m[98] (22,965 ft) clean, 5,000 m (16,000 ft) with max weapons

7,000 meters, not close to 10,000 meters. So due to your lack of aerodynamic knowledge you find it bizarre, ok maybe this will help, this guy certainly doesnt sound like a US supporter!

The Su-25 Frogfoot is a ground attack aircraft; a modern Sturmovik or, if you like, a Rooskie version of the A-10 Warthog. The wingspan and length of the Su-25 is about 50 feet each, and the mass is about 38,000lbs with a combat load. The ceiling of an unladen Su-25 is about 23,000 feet. With full combat load, an Su-25 can only make it to 16,000 feet. This low combat ceiling was actually a problem in the Soviet-Afghanistan war; the hot air and the tall mountains made it less useful than it could have been. At altitude, the maximum speed of the unladen Su-25 is Mach 0.82; probably considerably lower with combat loads. For air to air armament, it has a pair of 30mm cannons and carries the R-60 missile. The Su-25 is also capable of carrying the Kh-13, though it is not clear that the Ukrainians deploy this missile on their Su-25s. For the sake of argument, we’ll talk about it anyway.

Since it was a Ukrainian Su-25, we can also assume it was heading West to East; more or less the same trajectory as flight MH17. It could have been traveling in some other trajectory, but we can already see the problem with an Su-25 intercepting a 777; it’s too low, and too slow. If you want to believe the crackpot idea that Ukrainian government were a bunch of sinister schemers who shot down MH17 on purpose, an Su-25 is pretty much the worst armed military aircraft you can imagine for such a task. The Ukrainian air force has a dozen Su-27s and two-dozen Mig-29s perfectly capable of intercepting and shooting down a 777. They also have the Buk missile, and are capable of placing it somewhere near the Donetsk separatists if they wanted to make them look bad. So, the theory that the evil Ukrainians shot down a 777 with a Su-25 on purpose is … extremely unlikely.

Could an Su-25 have shot down a 777 by accident? Fog of war and all that? Perhaps they thought it was a Russian plane? Well, let’s see how likely that is. The weapons of the Su-25 capable of doing this are the cannons, the R-60 missile (and its later evolutions, such as the R-73E) and the K-13 missile.

Cannons: impossible. The Su-25 was at minimum 10,000 feet below the 777. This means simply pointing the cannon at the 777 without stalling would have been a challenge. The ballistic trajectory of the cannon fire would have made this worse. The Gsh-30-2 cannon fires a round which travels at only 2800 feet per second, significantly lower than, say, the round fired by a 338 Lapua sniper rifle. Imagine trying to shoot down an airplane with a rifle, from 2-3 miles away using your eyeball, in a plane, at a ballistic angle. If the MH17 was somehow taken out by cannon fire, it will have obvious 30mm holes in the fuselage. None have been spotted so far.

So even allowing for the 10 km ceiling as printed in some places, the aircraft doesn't have the capabilities to go chasing an airliner. BTW, the wikipedia article that i previously linked to, quotes Jane's All The World's Aircraft, which quite literally is world renowned for this sort of information.

So where are we...
1: German specialist debunked
2: Ability of SU-25 to shoot down the aircraft with cannon fire debunked
3: Ability of airliner crew to see the fighter on their radar debunked

Whats next?

El Guapo!

Egginacup, you have made numerous claims in this thread and have failed to provide any evidence to back up them up.
Therefore, as per the mod warning, you are no longer welcome to post in this thread anymore.

KahBoom

roryc wrote: »

Don't remember anyone saying the Russians are definitively responsible. It's logical to assume this is the most likely scenario, and as mentioned numerous times the most obvious scenario is likely the reality. Some people just love arguing against the flow of the tide though. Theres never been a worldwide event which hasn't had a few conspiracy theorists coming up with illogical scenarios. Yes, its pathetic. But its also quite funny.

If you want to justify sanctions against Russia for shooting down the plane - an action that could put us on a path of escalation potentially towards war - you need undeniable proof, not assumptions.

People should be alarmed that any such escalation is occurring, based solely on assumptions.

These posters have claimed Russia/separatists are responsible, so would be good to see them back this up with some evidence:

mandrake04 wrote: »

"It appears now that those responsible for these deaths have taken a back seat to those who are handling the bodies badly, or not adhering to our Western norms."
I think most people would agree that they are one and the same.

listermint wrote: »

Who is distracted by Gaza? Certainly not any western governments, If they were then they would be taking Israel to task.

however they are in this instance quite rightly and will vasts amounts of evidence taking Russia to task over is involvement start to current date in this whole thing.

The israel thing is another stinking matter all together.

pablo128 wrote: »

"What evidence?"
Ah will you and your buddies give over. There's an avalanche of reports out there. Are you honestly dismissing them all? Every report critical of the Russians, you are just going to brush them all off?

SeanW wrote: »

Actually the evidence leads to only one conclusion. It's the "Russia uber alles" crowd that's just making up stuff about Kyiv.
The proof shows that the separatists are responsible. Not the Russian state. Unless you are admitting that Russia is behind the whole thing?

darkpagandeath

Egginacup wrote: »

The answer is Smurf that I don't know. I think I read that the alleged fighters only have an operating ceiling of 10,000 and if so would in no way be able to engage a high altitude airliner. I find it bizarre that a 21st century jet fighter could only reach a third of the height of WW2 propeller fighters.

Ground attack planes do not need to go up high, they attack Tanks, Apc's ground infrastructure. Closer to the ground the better due to aerodynamics of having a low stall speed compared to other fixed winged jet planes.

aloyisious

Ditch wrote: »

Dear god ..... And they're carrying buckets to put the bits in! That sort of brings it into focus, doesn't it?

http://www.mail.com/int/news/europe/3018840-ukraine-body-parts-retrieved-jet-crash-site.html#.1272-stage-hero1-6

I'd have hoped by now that both the Ukrainian Govt Forces and the Separatists would have seen the sense of allowing the setting-up of a forward-ops base or tented Field-hospital by the investigators somewhere in the region. The notion of the team/s travelling 90 Km each way to/from the site to accommodation is ridiculous and 19th century by this time in the operation.

@Ditch:regretfully probably most of the human remains will be of size inappropriate for nothing else. Forensic work prohibits use of some bags (even plastic) seen on news programmes etc as contaminatory and not proof against leakage/disintegration by the contents. The "plastic" type must be breathable and leakproof if they are used for material composed of a liquid-nature.
.............................................................................................

The last para in the item Ditch posted refers to the new nearer Inv-team base.

Egginacup

gandalf wrote: »

Sorry Egg and other Puntinistas and "Bishop" I was out and about today so couldn't reply earlier.

Please see the following definition of terrorism.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/terrorism



Now lets examine a number of reports and articles about the Eastern Ukraine region under the rule of the Pro-Russian Terrorists.

http://www.unmultimedia.org/radio/english/2014/07/un-warns-of-serious-human-rights-violations-in-eastern-ukraine/#.U9vLBGOCiKU



In an article I already quoted a resident of one of the inflicted towns calls them terrorists. If the people on the ground consider them terrorists then who am I to question that.



Two Ukrainian actors were detained for 70 days because they passed on the wrong news to someone in a cafe. They were beaten and detained for no real reason at all.

http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-yurov-grishchuk-kidnapped/25475161.html



The curtailment of the freedom of the press certainly would fall into the definition of terrorist activity I am sure you would agree.

http://www.cpj.org/blog/2014/07/mission-journal-attacks-on-journalists-in-ukraine-.php



Russian Nazi's on the side of the Pro-Russian Terrorists, hmmm can some one say hypocrites

http://www.jamestown.org/single/?tx_ttnews[tt_news]=42481&no_cache=1#.U9vUdWOCiKU



Hmmmm it seems that the so called "separatists" are not popular with all the residents of Donetsk.

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-28583147



Mass grave uncovered after the town of Slovyansk was liberated by the Ukrainian forces. Executions of this type would be considered as actions of terrorists by a large proportion of right thinking people.

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/7/24/grave-mass-slovyansk.html



The murder of local politicians who oppose your views would also be seen as the actions of terrorists.

http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/04/24/uk-ukraine-crisis-politician-video-idINKBN0DA01620140424



So there you go from my perspective I am quite entitled to call the people illegally fighting the government in the Ukraine as terrorists. The leaders are Russians with links to Russian intelligence. A number of the terrorist are actually mercenaries from outside the Ukraine with a large number of Chechans involved.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/dcf5e16e-e5bc-11e3-aeef-00144feabdc0.html#axzz39AMVWTkq



Now I have backed up my assertion that Pro-Russian TERRORISTS are operating against the legitimate forces of the sovereign state of Ukraine. Can you now provide proof that they aren't and can you now respond and provide proof that the TERRORISTS didn't have a BUK system as per my earlier post which included multiple links from multiple sources.

I look forward with baited breath to your responses to this, depending which one of you is on shift at the moment.

Your assertions may well be true. But you ought to treat these kinds of reports in an eve handed fashion. The Kiev regime is currently killing civilians and neo nazi thugs under their banner have burnt or beaten to death protesters seeking refuge in a trade union hall.

So if you're going to frame the debate by attempting to label Novorussians militants as terrorists then you should hold Kiev forces to the same standard and not put their atrocities down to some euphamism like "the fog of war".

Oooops!

InTheTrees

KahBoom wrote: »

If you want to justify sanctions against Russia for shooting down the plane - an action that could put us on a path of escalation potentially towards war - you need undeniable proof, not assumptions.

There's already sanctions against Russia and there will be more.

Because they're interfering in Ukraine.

gandalf

Egginacup wrote: »

Your assertions may well be true. But you ought to treat these kinds of reports in an eve handed fashion. The Kiev regime is currently killing civilians and neo nazi thugs under their banner have burnt or beaten to death protesters seeking refuge in a trade union hall.

Any chance of proof of that? Or is that like the report on Russian TV where a claim was made of a kid being crucified by Ukrainian forces in recaptured Slavyansk. When it was actually looked into it was found to be utterly uncorroborated and without any proof. The interviewee was an actress married to one the terrorist leaders. I could just imagine the outrage from people like you if this was happening on the Ukrainian side or if the US were involved in propaganda attempts as crude as this.

http://news.yahoo.com/russian-tv-sparks-outrage-ukraine-child-crucifixion-claim-114839196.html

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9269871/vladimir-putins-empire-of-lies/

Last week, Russian TV viewers were horrified by a report from Russian Channel One’s Rostov-on-Don bureau on atrocities apparently committed by the Ukrainian army. A hollow-cheeked blonde woman in her thirties, introduced as Galina Pyshnyak, ‘a refugee from Slavyansk’, recounted how she had witnessed Ukrainian army soldiers crucifying a three-year-old boy before dragging his mother around Lenin Square behind a tank. A horrific story to which she was apparently the only eyewitness. But sharp-eyed viewers recognised the ‘refugee’ as actress Galina Astapenko from Obukhov, near Kiev, whose husband Dmitry Pyshnyak is a former member of the notorious Berkut paramilitary police unit (since disbanded by the government in Kiev) who is now fighting with separatists in Donbass.

According to recent posts on her social networking page, Astapenko is enjoying summer with her own children. And there is no Lenin Square in Slavyansk. Television gossip credits the ‘crucifixion’ scenario to Yulia Chumakova, Channel One’s Rostov bureau chief, who is apparently a big fan of Game of Thrones — where the terrible sight of a crucified child at the beginning of the fourth season moves the blonde Daenerys Stormborn to tears.

So if you're going to frame the debate by attempting to label Novorussians militants as terrorists then you should hold Kiev forces to the same standard and not put their atrocities down to some euphamism like "the fog of war".

You can call these people whatever the hell you want, from my perspective an awful lot of them aren't even locals. The majority of the leadership are from Russia, they contain a large number of Russia military (maybe on their days off ) and a number of Chechans.

They are taking arms up against the legitimate army of the sovereign country of the Ukraine under the guidance of the democratically elected government of that country.

The so called separatists are Terrorists.

On the 17th of July either by mistake or on purpose a missile was fired from a Russian supplied Buk which blew an airliner out of the skys over the Ukraine. This was an act of terror by people who have demonstrated that they do not give a damn about the people that they claim to represent.

darkpagandeath

gandalf wrote: »

Any chance of proof of that? Or is that like the report on Russian TV where a claim was made of a kid being crucified by Ukrainian forces in recaptured Slavyansk. When it was actually looked into it was found to be utterly uncorroborated and without any proof. The interviewee was an actress married to one the terrorist leaders. I could just imagine the outrage from people like you if this was happening on the Ukrainian side or if the US were involved in propaganda attempts as crude as this. (....)
.

Did they not prove that was off that TV show game of thrones, Same with some of the CT off other TV shows.

InTheTrees

gandalf wrote: »

You can call these people whatever the hell you want, from my perspective an awful lot of them aren't even locals. The majority of the leadership are from Russia, they contain a large number of Russia military (maybe on their days off ) and a number of Chechans.

The story about the russian soldiers posting pictures of themselves in Ukraine on instragam was funny.

Oops. Although you have to feel sorry for the individual soldiers involved, they'll be in deep sh*t now.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11003395/Instagram-pictures-suggest-Russian-soldier-served-in-Ukraine.html

gandalf

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Did they not prove that was off that TV show game of thrones, Same with some of the CT off other TV shows.

Read one of links I quoted. In it they say that Channel One’s Rostov bureau chief is a big fan of Game of Thrones. HBO should sue her for plagiarism.

Actually the scary thing here is that a media outlet that has a stated audience of 250 million viewers worldwide is making news up like this. It demostates very clearly that journalism does not exist in mainstream Russia media any longer. This is propaganda at a level that even Goebbels would be embarrassed at.

KahBoom

InTheTrees wrote: »

There's already sanctions against Russia and there will be more.

Because they're interfering in Ukraine.

The entire call for toughened sanctions, has begun due to the airliner being shot down:

The crash earlier this month has led to calls for much tougher action against Russia from Western countries who had previously imposed sanctions but only on small numbers of individuals and firms.
...
"The latest information from the region suggests that even since MH17 was shot down, Russia continues to transfer weapons across the border and to provide practical support to the separatists," said a statement issued by British Prime Minister David Cameron after the leaders' call.

"Leaders agreed that the international community should therefore impose further costs on Russia and specifically that ambassadors from across the EU should agree a strong package of sectoral sanctions as swiftly as possible."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/28/west-sanctions-russia_n_5628089.html

This on the back of inadequate evidence.