Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

darkpagandeath

KahBoom wrote: »

Nobody said they paid for his removal, but the Euromaidan funding is well documented from the west:
http://pando.com/2014/02/28/pierre-omidyar-co-funded-ukraine-revolution-groups-with-us-government-documents-show/

It's no secret that he got on bad terms with the US quickly, when he started rejecting IMF loans tied to austerity plans for Ukraine, and decided to take up Russia's loan offer instead - the Russian deal was not much better mind, Ukraine were stuck between vultures on both sides.

Do You have a link for a More reputable site, And tbh this sounds like CT stuff. He rejected the EU deal on being a Russian stooge. Are people forgetting all the money these guys robbed from the state then when things went south ran to Russia. People in the Ukraine clearly want closer ties with the west.

loughside

Ahhhh, how satisfying and hopefully more to come!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28637794

As many as 27,000 Russian tourists are stranded abroad after a Russian tour firm, Labirint, suspended operations.
A company statement (in Russian) blamed the move on a deterioration in the rouble exchange rate and the "negative political and economic situation".
There are signs that EU-US sanctions on Russia over the Ukraine crisis are hurting the wider economy, including Western investment in Russia.
A Russian tycoon says his executive jet is grounded because of US sanctions.
Billionaire businessman Gennady Timchenko - close to President Vladimir Putin - told Russia's Itar-Tass news agency (in Russian) that Gulfstream was no longer servicing his jet and the pilots were not allowed to use its navigation equipment.
Gulfstream executive jets are popular among the world's business elite
He is reckoned to have a fortune of $14.4bn (£11.4bn), owning big stakes in gas and infrastructure firms. He is among dozens of Russians hit by sanctions over the Ukraine conflict.
An agency assisting Russian tourists, Turpomoshch (Tour Help), said in a statement (in Russian) it is now trying to book Russians onto return flights in various countries, including Bulgaria, Egypt and Tunisia.
Labirint's sudden failure on Saturday left some 27,000 Russian tourists without return tickets, Turpomoshch said.
Anxious Labirint customers are bombarding Turpomoshch with calls at a rate of five per minute, the agency says, adding that "our managers are working flat-out" to help them.
Another reason Labirint gave for its move was the Russian state's advice that military or security service officials should not go abroad.
Last month another Russian tour operator, Neva, also went bust.
In other sanctions-related developments:

• The German government halts a contract - worth 100m euros ($134m; £80m) to the Rheinmetall firm - that would have delivered a military training camp to Russia, housing 30,000 soldiers annually
• Dobrolet, a Russian budget airline, grounds its planes. A subsidiary of Aeroflot, it had been flying from Moscow to Crimea after Russia's annexation of the peninsula, but was named on an EU sanctions list last week
• Russia's food hygiene service Rospotrebnadzor bans imports of "Kentucky Gentleman", a brand of American whiskey, citing traces of phthalates - organic chemicals - in the drink
• The chairman of UK firm JCB, which exports tractors, diggers and other heavy equipment, says that "if sanctions restrict sales of machines and spare parts there will be obviously be a major impact on JCB, which could put hundreds of British jobs at risk".

InTheTrees

loughside wrote: »

Billionaire businessman Gennady Timchenko - close to President Vladimir Putin - told Russia's Itar-Tass news agency (in Russian) that Gulfstream was no longer servicing his jet and the pilots were not allowed to use its navigation equipment.

Oh no! Poor man. Why doesnt he just buy a russian aeroplane?

ha ha ha ha ha!!!

:pac:

KahBoom

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Do You have a link for a More reputable site, And tbh this sounds like CT stuff. He rejected the EU deal on being a Russian stooge. Are people forgetting all the money these guys robbed from the state then when things went south ran to Russia. People in the Ukraine clearly want closer ties with the west.

That site has no ill repute, and neither does the author - if you claim otherwise, provide proof.

The only conspiracy theory here, is you claiming their president was conspiring with the Russian's against Europe and/or his own people - again, provide proof of that.

Rejecting a bad deal from the IMF, is not the same as rejecting closer ties with the west - neither is closer ties with Russia, mutually exclusive with closer ties with the west.

KahBoom

Ian Welsh is a very good writer for examining issues like this, and he gives a very good overview of the situation in Ukraine here:
http://www.ianwelsh.net/enough-russian-roulette-with-nuclear-fire/

zom

darkpagandeath wrote: »

People in the Ukraine clearly want closer ties with the west.

You can say the same about 90% of human population living outside of western paradise. Most of Maidan promises was about Visas to EU, wages and pensions on EU level.

In the meantime:

Ukraine misery as hot water limited in Kiev – old bathroom showers are compounding the misery felt by millions of Ukrainians oppressed by the combined effects of Gazprom’s stoppage of natural gas supplies:


http://blogs.ft.com/beyond-brics/2014/08/04/cold-rains-compound-misery-as-hot-water-limited-in-kiev/




Poland seeks compensation after Russia decided to ban Polish fruit and vegetable imports – The Polish agriculture ministry said the country’s losses could total 500 million euro.


http://www.freshplaza.com/article/124698/Poland-seeks-compensation-for-Russian-ban-on-fruit

InTheTrees

zom wrote: »

Poland seeks compensation after Russia decided to ban Polish fruit and vegetable imports – The Polish agriculture ministry said the country’s losses could total 500 million euro.

The creepy thing about russia is that its like they dont get that we're all watching them.

I think they believe its still the 1950's.

Why would any corporation with any sense invest in russia? the country is subject to any whim of putins and god knows what he's going to do next.

InTheTrees

KahBoom wrote: »

Ian Welsh is a very good writer for examining issues like this, and he gives a very good overview of the situation in Ukraine here:
http://www.ianwelsh.net/enough-russian-roulette-with-nuclear-fire/

Pfft. You dont defeat a bully by giving in to them. "Ian Welsh" thinks we should cave in to putin because he's so macho? Funny.

Let putin play his little games by "calling up reservists" and having his exercises.

darkpagandeath

KahBoom wrote: »

That site has no ill repute, and neither does the author - if you claim otherwise, provide proof.

The only conspiracy theory here, is you claiming their president was conspiring with the Russian's against Europe and/or his own people - again, provide proof of that.

Rejecting a bad deal from the IMF, is not the same as rejecting closer ties with the west - neither is closer ties with Russia, mutually exclusive with closer ties with the west.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/27/viktor-yanukovych-russia-ukrainian-president-moscow

Speaking in parliament before he was appointed head of a national unity government, Yatsenyuk said that in the past three years "the sum of $70bn was paid out of Ukraine's financial system into offshore accounts"

"I want to report to you: the state treasury has been robbed and is empty," he said.

They used Ukraine as their personal piggy bank.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10669103/Ukraine-crisis-I-didnt-flee-says-Yanukovych-as-he-calls-for-Russia-to-act.html

The once powerful Yanukovych whose presidency saw the enrichment of his allies, a concentration of power and a final, bloody crackdown on protesters, was also obliged to answer questions about his kitsch mansion on the edge of Kiev that was thrown open to curious Ukrainians after his government crumbled.

little off topic but you asked for proof of his misdeeds.

KahBoom

InTheTrees wrote: »

Pfft. You dont defeat a bully by giving in to them. "Ian Welsh" thinks we should cave in to putin because he's so macho? Funny.

Let putin play his little games by "calling up reservists" and having his exercises.

You know that's an idiotic caricature of his article - extremely lazy post.

We just watched Israel with the US assisting (who supply funding and all the bombs being dropped - a few steps short of dropping them themselves) bomb the crap out of Gaza, and commit multiple war crimes in the process, and we also watched the US enter into an illegal war recently, as well as engage in a plethora of other illegal actions - lets not be pussies and give in to the US/Israel, right? Hypocritical nonsense.

Much of the EU are lapdogs to the US; here they are trying to pull the EU into a conflict with Russia and funding the destabilization of ex-Soviet nations - something that harms the EU, especially economically - and we're playing along rather than telling them to fúck off, even when the US was openly disparaging of the EU in the leaked 'fúck the EU' diplomatic conversation.

Europe needs to grow a spine and distance itself from the US.

darkpagandeath

KahBoom wrote: »

You know that's an idiotic caricature of his article - extremely lazy post.

We just watched Israel with the US assisting (who supply funding and all the bombs being dropped - a few steps short of dropping them themselves) bomb the crap out of Gaza, and commit multiple war crimes in the process, and we also watched the US enter into an illegal war recently, as well as engage in a plethora of other illegal actions - lets not be pussies and give in to the US/Israel, right? Hypocritical nonsense.

Much of the EU are lapdogs to the US; here they are trying to pull the EU into a conflict with Russia and funding the destabilization of ex-Soviet nations - something that harms the EU, especially economically - and we're playing along rather than telling them to fúck off, even when the US was openly disparaging of the EU in the leaked '**** the EU' diplomatic conversation.

Again, Russia need the EU more than the EU need Russia. If they turn off the oil and gas they could go bankrupt. And the EU could source that somewhere else, not saying it would be easy but they could.

KahBoom

darkpagandeath wrote: »

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/27/viktor-yanukovych-russia-ukrainian-president-moscow



They used Ukraine as their personal piggy bank.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10669103/Ukraine-crisis-I-didnt-flee-says-Yanukovych-as-he-calls-for-Russia-to-act.html



little off topic but you asked for proof of his misdeeds.

That's bait-and-switch, none of that shows their "president was conspiring with the Russian's against Europe and/or his own people".

darkpagandeath

KahBoom wrote: »

That's bait-and-switch, none of that shows their "president was conspiring with the Russian's against Europe and/or his own people".

You are the one that said that, I said they robbed the country blind.

KahBoom

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Again, Russia need the EU more than the EU need Russia. If they turn off the oil and gas they go bankrupt. And the EU could source that somewhere else, not saying it would be easy but they could.

How will they go bankrupt? They seem happy to redirect sales to Asia.
Where exactly is the EU going to source it, that will be as cheap? That's going to have an immediate negative economic impact, and if an equally cheap source can't be shown, then it's going to have a long-term negative economic impact on Europe.

Also, since the US is far worse at engaging in illegal wars/acts than Russia is, when are we going to engage in sanctions against them? Or Israel?

Or are you going to turn an about-face here and suggest that we need the US more economically - and this is really all just about economic "might is right" - i.e. the west should implement sanctions on Russia, basically just because we can and the US has the economic/political/military power to avoid sanctions - meaning the sanctions aren't for any actual moral reasons?

KahBoom

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You are the one that said that, I said they robbed the country blind.

So why did you claim to prove anything I asked for, in my post? It was a bait-and-switch.

darkpagandeath

KahBoom wrote: »

How will they go bankrupt? They seem happy to redirect sales to Asia.
Where exactly is the EU going to source it, that will be as cheap? That's going to have an immediate negative economic impact, and if an equally cheap source can't be shown, then it's going to have a long-term negative economic impact on Europe.

Also, since the US is far worse at engaging in illegal wars/acts than Russia is, when are we going to engage in sanctions against them? Or Israel?

Or are you going to turn an about-face here and suggest that we need the US more economically - and this is really all just about economic "might is right" - i.e. the west should implement sanctions on Russia, basically just because we can, not for any actual moral reasons?

Why would the East buy more energy than it needs ? This is a debate about Russia's involvement in Ukraine. Not Israel and Gaza. I never said it would be easy to source other gas and oil i simply said it could be done. You think the EU have no plans in place and Are held hostage by Russia ?

darkpagandeath

KahBoom wrote: »

So why did you claim to prove anything I asked for, in my post? It was a bait-and-switch.

Still trying to decipher this sentence, What do you want me to prove/disprove ?

KahBoom

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Why would the East buy more energy than it needs ? This is a debate about Russia's involvement in Ukraine. Not Israel and Gaza. I never said it would be easy to source other gas and oil i simply said it could be done. You think the EU have no plans in place and Are held hostage by Russia ?

Why would Asia not need more energy going forward into the future? You think they're going to be using the same amount of energy they presently use, forever, and that's it? Really facetious reasoning there.

I think if the EU had plans in place, we'd have prepared and acted upon them way back in 2004, the last time there was a dispute about gas with Russia - we're going to be harmed economically by this.

This thread is about the moral justifications for the sanctions as well - and the US/Israel prove that the moral justification is non-existent, and that if we had any consistency we'd have implemented sanctions against the US and Israel long ago.

You think Russia should be held hostage by the US and western world - when many of the countries engaging in sanctions, have acted far worse than Russia, in engaging or assisting with illegal wars, and other internationally illegal actions?

darkpagandeath

KahBoom wrote: »

Why would Asia not need more energy going forward into the future? You think they're going to be using the same amount of energy they presently use, forever, and that's it? Really facetious reasoning there.

I think if the EU had plans in place, we'd have prepared and acted upon them way back in 2004, the last time there was a dispute about gas with Russia - we're going to be harmed economically by this.

This thread is about the moral justifications for the sanctions as well - and the US/Israel prove that the moral justification is non-existent, and that if we had any consistency we'd have implemented sanctions against the US and Israel long ago.

You think Russia should be held hostage by the US and western world - when many of the countries engaging in sanctions, have acted far worse than Russia, in engaging or assisting with illegal wars, and other internationally illegal actions?

Did you even read what i posted ? I stated why would the east buy more energy than it needs. If Russia turned off the Gas and oil today, the east would not just simply buy more to take up that loss. I'm not being drawn on Gaza or Israel.

KahBoom

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Did you even read what i posted ? I stated why would the east buy more energy than it needs. If Russia turned off the Gas and oil today, the east would not just simply buy more to take up that loss.

If you claim Asia would not buy more gas/oil because that's 'more energy than it needs', you're presuming they wont have a greater need for oil/gas going into the future; something you need to provide proof for.

They are already increasing gas deals with Asia:
http://www.adn.com/article/20140705/china-russia-gas-deal-creates-arctic-winners-and-losers

They also don't need to tomorrow cut off gas supplies 100% to Europe, all they need to do is increase prices and cut off a portion of the supply - something Europe can do nothing about.

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I'm not being drawn on Gaza or Israel.

This is because you know your attempted moral justifications are hypocritical and indefensible.

There is a much greater moral claim for sanctions against the US and Israel, than there is against Russia.

darkpagandeath

KahBoom wrote: »

If you claim Asia would not buy more gas/oil because that's 'more energy than it needs', you're presuming they wont have a greater need for oil/gas going into the future; something you need to provide proof for.

They are already increasing gas deals with Asia:
http://www.adn.com/article/20140705/china-russia-gas-deal-creates-arctic-winners-and-losers

They also don't need to tomorrow cut off gas supplies 100% to Europe, all they need to do is increase prices and cut off a portion of the supply - something Europe can do nothing about.


This is because you know your attempted moral justifications are hypocritical and indefensible.

There is a much greater moral claim for sanctions against the US and Israel, than there is against Russia.

What does that have to do with Russia probably collapsing if they stop selling to the EU in the Meantime. I never said the East would not buy more Gas oil in the future. I stated they would not buy more in the meantime to replace the loss of the EU not buying from Russia. EU can Buy Else were never said it would be easy. Again not being drawn on Israel or Gaza.

KahBoom

darkpagandeath wrote: »

What does that have to do with Russia probably collapsing if they stop selling to the EU in the Meantime. I never said the East would not buy more Gas oil in the future. I stated they would not buy more in the meantime to replace the loss of the EU not buying from Russia. EU can Buy Else were never said it would be easy.

Did you even read more than one sentence of my post?
"They also don't need to tomorrow cut off gas supplies 100% to Europe, all they need to do is increase prices and cut off a portion of the supply - something Europe can do nothing about."

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Again not being drawn on Israel or Gaza.

Again, you have zero moral justification for supporting the sanctions on Russia - you know that any justification you attempt to provide, fits even more strongly against the US and Israel, than it does against Russia - making your position completely hypocritical.

darkpagandeath

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/05/world/europe/buildup-makes-russia-battle-ready-for-ukraine.html?_r=0

Anyway back on topic, Seems troops and materials training near the boarder.

Elmer Blooker

zom wrote: »

Poland seeks compensation after Russia decided to ban Polish fruit and vegetable imports – The Polish agriculture ministry said the country’s losses could total 500 million euro.


http://www.freshplaza.com/article/124698/Poland-seeks-compensation-for-Russian-ban-on-fruit

Tough s*** !
Let them go begging to their friends in Washington for compensation.
Lets see how much the US cares about NATO "allies" now.

jelenka

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Tough s*** !
Let them go begging to their friends in Washington for compensation.
Lets see how much the US cares about NATO "allies" now.

Thats what i think too, they cannot threaten with sanctions and not expect any in return.

Also Russia is banning fish from the Baltic states, some dairy products are also being limited.
They are in the process of stopping the use of Klaipeda ( Lithuania) port for transportation. Basically anyone that wanted tougher sanctions will suffer most.
I somehow doubt that there will be a lot of help from nato, us and eu.

josip

jelenka wrote: »

Thats what i think too, they cannot threaten with sanctions and not expect any in return.

Also Russia is banning fish from the Baltic states, some dairy products are also being limited.
They are in the process of stopping the use of Klaipeda ( Lithuania) port for transportation. Basically anyone that wanted tougher sanctions will suffer most.
I somehow doubt that there will be a lot of help from nato, us and eu.

While the bordering countries will no doubt find it tougher, one would still expect the EU market of 500 million people to be better able to withstand a sanction war against a country with 140 million people.

The sanction war will probably be fought around the periphery, at least in the beginning. So gas/oil won't be impacted, but watermelons and dairy products might be a likely battleground.

mdolly123

EU still in rocky financial situation, US has plenty of energy reserves and the EU are simply more dependant so sanctions need to be weighed with this in mind

gandalf

Looks like the Terrorists are showing their true colours and their actual regard for the people they claim to be protecting and representing.

Rights group Human Rights Watch (HRW) also on Tuesday said pro-Kremlin rebels were hindering the treatment of civilian casualties by threatening doctors, hijacking ambulances and stealing medical equipment.

"Pro-Russian insurgents' attacks on medical units and personnel are putting sick and vulnerable people and those who care for them at risk," Yulia Gorbunova, Europe and Central Asia researcher at HRW, said in a statement.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/08/ukraine-urges-rebels-let-civilians-flee-20148551933968124.html

loughside

should be enough now to bring Putler and Russia to court for warcrimes and terrorism.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2715340/MH17-jet-shot-missile-launcher-Volvo-Ukrainian-says-footage-proves-pro-Russian-separatists-commandeered-truck-transport-weapon.html

A key clue has linked pro-Moscow rebels to the truck seen carrying the BUK missile system towards Russia hours after MH17 was downed, it is claimed.
The owner of what is said to be the only such white Volvo truck in the Donetsk region of Ukraine has identified his lorry and said it was commandeered by separatists who took over his premises nine days before the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 was shot out of the sky, killing all 298 people on board.
Footage shot by a clandestine Ukrainian police team showed an image of a BUK weapons system on a Volvo truck being smuggled out of eastern Ukraine in the early hours of July 18, the day after the plane crash.

Ash.J.Williams

loughside wrote: »

should be enough now to bring Putler and Russia to court for warcrimes and terrorism.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2715340/MH17-jet-shot-missile-launcher-Volvo-Ukrainian-says-footage-proves-pro-Russian-separatists-commandeered-truck-transport-weapon.html

A key clue has linked pro-Moscow rebels to the truck seen carrying the BUK missile system towards Russia hours after MH17 was downed, it is claimed.
The owner of what is said to be the only such white Volvo truck in the Donetsk region of Ukraine has identified his lorry and said it was commandeered by separatists who took over his premises nine days before the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 was shot out of the sky, killing all 298 people on board.
Footage shot by a clandestine Ukrainian police team showed an image of a BUK weapons system on a Volvo truck being smuggled out of eastern Ukraine in the early hours of July 18, the day after the plane crash.

all that happens when a civilian aircraft is shot down is compensation and an apology.