Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

darkpagandeath

DeadHand wrote: »

Of the West?

Agreed.

Nope of a fallen Empire thinking it can take back parts of it that belong to other people.

gandalf

DeadHand wrote: »

A government that was never elected. That seized power by force aided by a significant far right, facist element who could just as easily be branded "terrorist".

No all the members of the Government were elected, including the small number of ultra nationalists (similar ones exist in Russia and a number of other European nations).

There also has been a Presidential Election held which was perceived as fair and proper with the only locations where no polling was conducted was the so-called rebel ones (who contained known Russian Neo-Nazis) where democracy was silenced.

darkpagandeath

gandalf wrote: »

No all the members of the Government were elected, including the small number of ultra nationalists (similar ones exist in Russia and a number of other European nations).

There also has been a Presidential Election held which was perceived as fair and proper with the only locations where no polling was conducted was the so-called rebel ones (who contained known Russian Neo-Nazis) where democracy was silenced.

Yeah they seem to forget Russia is crawling with these type of ultra national groups.

gandalf

BTW Deadhand were the people in the so-called "Donetsk People's Republic" given a vote on any of the Russian puppets who have been calling themselves leaders.

A veteran of the pro-Russian separatist rebellion in Moldova, Vladimir Antyufeyev, now claims to be in command of rebel-held Donetsk in eastern Ukraine.

.....
Some media in Moldova and Russia have compared Mr Antyufeyev to Stalin's notorious secret police chief Lavrenty Beria and accused him of creating an atmosphere of intimidation and intolerance in the region....

Did that guy get voted in by the people of East Ukraine? What right has he got to make proclamations in their name?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28546157

KahBoom

gandalf wrote: »

OK then how would you deal with a group of armed "separatists" (does that make you feel better) who have illegally taken up arms against the state with help from an outside player which means they have access to heavy weapons then?

I certainly do not believe the Ukrainians are deliberately targeting civilians but they are deliberately targeting forces who have killed quite a number of their own troops and I would be interested in how you and others here would suggest they engage with such forces if those forces choose to embed themselves in civilian areas?

Context. Ukraine is on Russia's doorstep (and was a part of Russia for longer than the US has even existed), which will make Russia (particularly Moscow) very vulnerable to attack in a war if it becomes part of NATO - this is a massive threat to Russia.

The US/west is documented as having funded some of the groups that destabilized Ukraine's government as well - the west shouldn't have fúcked with Ukraine, destabilizing a democratically elected government in the process, which led to this mess.

It's up to Ukraine to fight this out alone now - any escalation involving military from the west is going to lead to another Cold War.


You're also trying to justify war crimes on the part of the Ukrainian government now - nice.

Piliger

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Yeah they seem to forget Russia is crawling with these type of ultra national groups.

Putin pours millions in to them in a kind of proto Hitler-youth policy.

jelenka

josip wrote: »

While the bordering countries will no doubt find it tougher, one would still expect the EU market of 500 million people to be better able to withstand a sanction war against a country with 140 million people.

The sanction war will probably be fought around the periphery, at least in the beginning. So gas/oil won't be impacted, but watermelons and dairy products might be a likely battleground.

As far as I know, elecricity for example doesn't go directly from Russia to Lithuania, it is going through Belarus and a while back there were talks of Belarus upping the price for them. In order to get it cheaper for themselves they put the price higher for baltic states.

If Lithuania keeps their sanction war, it will not be long until they need massive bailout from eu, they have NOTHING of their own - sold their oil, rail, port etc.

They really are relying heavily on exports to Russia, yet they are insisting on super heavy sanctions and war like conditions for everyone

darkpagandeath

KahBoom wrote: »

Context. Ukraine is on Russia's doorstep (and was a part of Russia for longer than the US has even existed), which will make Russia (particularly Moscow) very vulnerable to attack in a war if it becomes part of NATO - this is a massive threat to Russia.

The US/west is documented as having funded some of the groups that destabilized Ukraine's government as well - the west shouldn't have fúcked with Ukraine, destabilizing a democratically elected government in the process, which led to this mess.

It's up to Ukraine to fight this out alone now - any escalation involving military from the west is going to lead to another Cold War.


You're also trying to justify war crimes on the part of the Ukrainian government now - nice.

Why ? who is declaring war on Russia ? Is China a massive threat to them to ?

comongethappy

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Why ? who is declaring war on Russia ? Is China a massive threat to them to ?

There is a strong hangover of soviet paranoia pervading the upper echelons of the Russian state.

They always think they are threatened.

gandalf

KahBoom wrote: »

Context. Ukraine is on Russia's doorstep (and was a part of Russia for longer than the US has even existed), which will make Russia (particularly Moscow) very vulnerable to attack in a war if it becomes part of NATO - this is a massive threat to Russia.

Again where did anyone in the Ukraine say they wanted to join NATO? Please back this up.

Also just because country A is on country B's doorstep it doesn't give that country any right to interfere with Country A's independence. That kind of argument was used in 1938.

The US/west is documented as having funded some of the groups that destabilized Ukraine's government as well - the west shouldn't have fúcked with Ukraine, destabilizing a democratically elected government in the process, which led to this mess.

Did the US or EU put boots on the ground to kick this off.

If you are talking about NGO funding for democracy organisations and are trying to compare it with providing military hardware, personal, leadership and mercenaries then it is a bit skewed don't you think?

What kicked this off was a trade agreement between Ukraine and the EU which the then President of Ukraine decided to pull out of at the last minute without any real valid explanation.

That's what the people of the Ukraine took exception with and that is why he was ousted.

The rest of this situation is because Putin believes he can do anything to his neighbours with impunity and has lead to a situation where not only Ukrainian people are paying the ultimate price for his aggressive tendencies but also International Travellers.

It's up to Ukraine to fight this out alone now - any escalation involving military from the west is going to lead to another Cold War.

I don't think anyone commenting here want any US or EU boots on the ground in the Ukraine that would be a disaster. What people want is the removal of Russian boots off the ground.

You're also trying to justify war crimes on the part of the Ukrainian government now - nice.

And again what is your solution to this. How would you deal with an insurrection with outside support in a sovereign country. I'm waiting with baited breathe.

jelenka

comongethappy wrote: »

When?

Do you mean that "vote" held under the barrel of a gun, with a 30% turnout & a 50-50 split in outcome?

(And the district of Sevastopol declaring a turnout of 100%+).

They voted in favour of joining Russia, noone held a gun to their head ( another lie everyone believes) and while i might believe that the numbers of those who attended were exaggerated, i know a lot of people whose relatives live there and all they say is that they are glad they joined Russia.
Prices went a bit higher but at the same time salaries, pensions and social services are way better. There is a lot of investment into the infrastructure too.

jelenka

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Why ? who is declaring war on Russia ? Is China a massive threat to them to ?

While China is seemingly an ally to Russia now, i wouldn't be surprised if they would be after russian territory if there was a war.

darkpagandeath

jelenka wrote: »

They voted in favour of joining Russia, noone held a gun to their head ( another lie everyone believes) and while i might believe that the numbers of those who attended were exaggerated, i know a lot of people whose relatives live there and all they say is that they are glad they joined Russia.
Prices went a bit higher but at the same time salaries, pensions and social services are way better. There is a lot of investment into the infrastructure too.

UN have a different view on the legality of it think i will go with their's. I'm sure the pro Russians are happy, Does not mean it was a free fair election that everyone could vote in.

gandalf

jelenka wrote: »

While China is seemingly an ally to Russia now, i wouldn't be surprised if they would be after russian territory if there was a war.

Without a doubt if I was a Russian I would be very wary of any agreements made in haste with the Chinese. They are a far bigger threat to Russia than the West.

darkpagandeath

gandalf wrote: »

Without a doubt if I was a Russian I would be very wary of any agreements made in haste with the Chinese. They are a far bigger threat to Russia than the West.

I would be worried too if China start smelling blood in the water.

KahBoom

gandalf wrote: »

Again where did anyone in the Ukraine say they wanted to join NATO? Please back this up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations#Ukrainian_governments_proposal_to_join_the_NATO_Membership_Action_Plan

gandalf wrote: »

Also just because country A is on country B's doorstep it doesn't give that country any right to interfere with Country A's independence. That kind of argument was used in 1938.

What it does mean, is country 'C' (the US and other western nations), shouldn't have fúcked with that country, funding destabilization of its government.

gandalf wrote: »

And again what is your solution to this. How would you deal with an insurrection with outside support in a sovereign country. I'm waiting with baited breathe.

There is no solution. Probably nothing is going to stop parts of the country gaining independence.

I don't agree with what Russia is likely doing, but it does make sense - handing all of Ukraine to NATO would be an existential threat to them, strategically.

Piliger

gandalf wrote: »

Without a doubt if I was a Russian I would be very wary of any agreements made in haste with the Chinese. They are a far bigger threat to Russia than the West.

Putin signed a desperate deal with China on gas a few months ago. China got a phenomenal deal. Russia is sliding into a weaker and weaker state. What people need to get is that Putin doesn't care. He has his 20billion squirrelled away and all the little boys he wants. Keeping Russia weak is his core motivation, despite his propaganda.

gandalf

KahBoom wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations#Ukrainian_governments_proposal_to_join_the_NATO_Membership_Action_Plan

Fair enough that's from 2008 but later in that article it cites the following news article.

Acting Foreign Affairs Minister of Ukraine Andriy Deschytsia has once again stated that the new Ukrainian government is not intending to lead Ukraine to NATO.

"We are considering all options regarding the strengthening of our security and collective security. But we must stick to the existing legislation of Ukraine," he said at a press conference in Kyiv on Saturday.

The official noted that in accordance with the Ukrainian legislation Ukraine is a non-aligned state.

"But the issue whether to change this legislation depends on the Ukrainian parliament. The program of the new Ukrainian government does not contain the intention of becoming a member of NATO," he said.

http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/198372.html

What it does mean, is country 'C' (the US and other western nations), shouldn't have fúcked with that country, funding destabilization of its government.

But did it? Funding NGO's is not the same as giving missile systems capable of shooting down Internationally owned civilian jet liners? It's not the same as handing tanks over to mercenaries is it?

There is no solution. Probably nothing is going to stop parts of the country gaining independence.

But the drive for "independence" appears to be coming from outside actors embedded in that part of the country?

I don't agree with what Russia is likely doing, but it does make sense - handing all of Ukraine to NATO would be an existential threat to them, strategically.

TBH what they are doing is making it easier for NATO to get acceptance in the Ukraine by their (Russias) actions.

Peist2007

Too many lads on this thread who havent a clue what they are on about. Putler? ffs

gandalf

Peist2007 wrote: »

Too many lads on this thread who havent a clue what they are on about. Putler? ffs

What it's been part of the media environment for a while now.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/04/23/heres-putler-the-mash-up-image-of-putin-and-hitler-sweeping-ukraine/

Comparisons between Hitler and Putin are trending big time. Hillary Clinton first cooked it up in early March, referencing Crimea. “Now if this sounds familiar,” she said, “it’s what Hitler did back in the ’30s. . . . Germans by ancestry were in places like Czechoslovakia and Romania and other places, [and] Hitler kept saying they’re not being treated right. I must go and protect my people.”

Then the German finance minister said the Crimea absorption was analogous to Hitler’s 1938 seizure of Sudetenland. “We’ve seen this before in history,” Wolfgang Schäuble said, before quickly backing off the comment. “Hitler took over the Sudetenland with these types of tactics.”

KahBoom

gandalf wrote: »

Fair enough that's from 2008 but later in that article it cites the following news article.

http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/198372.html

Regardless, they were - in my view - on the path towards joining NATO, and given past precedent, that seems a logical thing to conclude.

gandalf wrote: »

But did it? Funding NGO's is not the same as giving missile systems capable of shooting down Internationally owned civilian jet liners? It's not the same as handing tanks over to mercenaries is it?

Prove that Russia gave the equipment that shot down the airliners? There's those assumptions again. In any case, I never said the west gave direct military support, I said they helped destabilize the government - which they did.

gandalf wrote: »

But the drive for "independence" appears to be coming from outside actors embedded in that part of the country?

Prove that?

KahBoom

Just a reminder again: The fascists in this conflict - the real ones - are on the side of the Ukrainian government.

comongethappy

KahBoom wrote: »

Just a reminder again: The fascists in this conflict - the real ones - are on the side of the Ukrainian government.

Russian fascists just don't cut the mustard.

gandalf

KahBoom wrote: »

Regardless, they were - in my view - on the path towards joining NATO, and given past precedent, that seems a logical thing to conclude.

Again if Russia continues to behave in an aggressive manner towards a neighbouring sovereign state then yes it is entirely perceivable that they will ally with any organisation that will make it more difficult for Russia to continue on in this path. Don't you agree?

Prove that Russia gave the equipment that shot down the airliners? There's those assumptions again. In any case, I never said the west gave direct military support, I said they helped destabilize the government - which they did.

There is plenty of proof quoted ad nauseam around this whole thread are we going to have this argument again are we Kyuss?

Prove that?

Answer me this then where are all the leaders of these separatists (terrorists) from? I provided a link a few posts back to one of them. He certainly isn't a local.

Piliger

gandalf wrote: »

What it's been part of the media environment for a while now.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/04/23/heres-putler-the-mash-up-image-of-putin-and-hitler-sweeping-ukraine/

Indeed. The parallels are chilling and sobering.

Piliger

gandalf wrote: »

Again if Russia continues to behave in an aggressive manner towards a neighbouring sovereign state then yes it is entirely perceivable that they will ally with any organisation that will make it more difficult for Russia to continue on in this path. Don't you agree?

Putin has not only proved his fascist expansionist plans for Russia, he has shown how stupid he is at the same time. Had he encouraged warm feelings from Ukraine, the chances of them joining the EU or NATO was negligible.
By his blundering actions he has strengthened NATO, ensure that Ukraine and others will join it and that more and more allies military presence will be moved to the East in Poland and elsewhere.
He is sending arms and soldiers into Eastern Ukraine now but they are losing. The EU and USA are strengthening Ukraine's army as we speak and Ukraine will have won back it's non-Crimean land by christmas.

gandalf

Piliger wrote: »

By his blundering actions he has strengthened NATO, ensure that Ukraine and others will join it and that more and more allies military presence will be moved to the East in Poland and elsewhere.
He is sending arms and soldiers into Eastern Ukraine now but they are losing. The EU and USA are strengthening Ukraine's army as we speak and Ukraine will have won back it's non-Crimean land by christmas.

I don't think the Ukraine will join NATO myself. I do think that Russia's actions has made it a lot more palatable than it was before these illegal actions by a proxy army (terrorists).

I have not seen any proof of troops and arms being sent into Ukraine for the Governments use by any other countries or forces. I would certainly be very interested in any information on this if it is true.

I certainly do not see the Crimea being taken back by force. The most likely outcome to that is a negotiation where Russia will have to pay substantial reparations to Kiev, probably with the scrubbing of the gas debt and a restoration of the pre-crisis gas price deal.

comongethappy

Piliger wrote: »

The EU and USA are strengthening Ukraine's army as we speak

This isn't happening & the EU as an entity cannot do so ( I think).

and Ukraine will have won back it's non-Crimean land by christmas.

Once the Russian forces are driven east, the best the rather poorly equipped & small Ukrainian army can hope for is to hold the eastern border.

Crimea is lost.

Elmer Blooker

Piliger wrote: »

I love it when the USA and the EU fcuks Russia. Cheering to the rafters.

How can someone be so blind to think that sanctions will only hit Russia and the EU gets off scott free! I read somewhere about the possibility of Russia shutting down their airspace to western airlines, this would be an economic disaster for these airlines. The shortest direct route (and cheapest) to China, Japan etc is over Scandinavia, the Arctic Ocean and Siberia, ie over Russian airspace.
http://www.ilibrarian.net/flagmaps/arctic.jpg

comongethappy

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

How can someone be so blind to think that sanctions will only hit Russia and the EU gets off scott free! I read somewhere about the possibility of Russia shutting down their airspace to western airlines, this would be an economic disaster for these airlines. The shortest direct route (and cheapest) to China, Japan etc is over Scandinavia, the Arctic Ocean and Siberia, ie over Russian airspace.
http://www.ilibrarian.net/flagmaps/arctic.jpg

A tit-for-tat would destroy the Russian state airline almost immediately.

I doubt it will happen.

The EU can feel relatively insulated from Russian sanctions, because its economy is 8-times bigger.
Eastern states are disproportionately affected though.