Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

Piliger

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

How can someone be so blind to think that sanctions will only hit Russia and the EU gets off scott free! I read somewhere about the possibility of Russia shutting down their airspace to western airlines, this would be an economic disaster for these airlines. The shortest direct route (and cheapest) to China, Japan etc is over Scandinavia, the Arctic Ocean and Siberia, ie over Russian airspace.
http://www.ilibrarian.net/flagmaps/arctic.jpg

I dearly hope they close them down. The change in flight plans will be miniscule. But the Russian economy will be driven even further down the drain that it already is whole the current round of sanctions are taking affect.

KahBoom

gandalf wrote: »

Again if Russia continues to behave in an aggressive manner towards a neighbouring sovereign state then yes it is entirely perceivable that they will ally with any organisation that will make it more difficult for Russia to continue on in this path. Don't you agree?

You're trying to provide a post-hoc justification - they were looking to join NATO before any of this happened. As I said earlier:
"Context. Ukraine is on Russia's doorstep (and was a part of Russia for longer than the US has even existed), which will make Russia (particularly Moscow) very vulnerable to attack in a war if it becomes part of NATO - this is a massive threat to Russia."

gandalf wrote: »

There is plenty of proof quoted ad nauseam around this whole thread are we going to have this argument again are we Kyuss?

Here we go again - you're trying to bring back this myth.

There are two bits of 'evidence' put forward:
1: A social media website, where the website says the information was sourced from the local community, not from the separatist military - this is not evidence.
2: The alleged intercepted phone call, where there has been zero impartial independent verification of its validity - that is not evidence.

So there is zero evidence left, that anyone is willing to stand by.

If you have more 'evidence', feel free to link it.

gandalf wrote: »

Answer me this then where are all the leaders of these separatists (terrorists) from? I provided a link a few posts back to one of them. He certainly isn't a local.

You made the claim "But the drive for "independence" appears to be coming from outside actors embedded in that part of the country?" - it's up to you to back that up, not for me to answer counter-questions trying to dodge the issue. The burden of proof is on you.

Elmer Blooker

This link may be a few months old but is still as relevant as the day it was written. If some of you have no problem with even longer dole queues then that's your opinion which you are entitled to. Will anyone in Washington shed any tears if our economy (and the EU's) goes from bad to worse?
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/irelands-637m-export-trade-with-russia-at-risk-over-ukraine-crisis-30076957.html

Piliger

gandalf wrote: »

I don't think the Ukraine will join NATO myself. I do think that Russia's actions has made it a lot more palatable than it was before these illegal actions by a proxy army (terrorists).

Ukraine will join NATO just as soon as the regaining of their Eastern lands is complete. The only reason they have not joined in the last couple of months or the coming months is that NATO would be dragged into the battle by proxy. I would put the likelihood at 95%.

I have not seen any proof of troops and arms being sent into Ukraine for the Governments use by any other countries or forces. I would certainly be very interested in any information on this if it is true.

A lot more goes on in this world than is documented on the pages of google.

I certainly do not see the Crimea being taken back by force.

Of course not. Who would suggest that kind of outcome.

The most likely outcome to that is a negotiation where Russia will have to pay substantial reparations to Kiev, probably with the scrubbing of the gas dept and a restoration of the pre-crisis gas price deal.

I don't believe for a minute that there will be any negotiated settlement. Ukraine will never accept the loss of it's Crimea.

Peist2007

gandalf wrote: »

Again if Russia continues to behave in an aggressive manner towards a neighbouring sovereign state then yes it is entirely perceivable that they will ally with any organisation that will make it more difficult for Russia to continue on in this path. Don't you agree?




There is plenty of proof quoted ad nauseam around this whole thread are we going to have this argument again are we Kyuss?



Answer me this then where are all the leaders of these separatists (terrorists) from? I provided a link a few posts back to one of them. He certainly isn't a local.

Have the Americans or the Ukrainians shown the "irrefutable evidence" they said they had the night the plane went down?

Peist2007

Piliger wrote: »

Putin has not only proved his fascist expansionist plans for Russia, he has shown how stupid he is at the same time. Had he encouraged warm feelings from Ukraine, the chances of them joining the EU or NATO was negligible.
By his blundering actions he has strengthened NATO, ensure that Ukraine and others will join it and that more and more allies military presence will be moved to the East in Poland and elsewhere.
He is sending arms and soldiers into Eastern Ukraine now but they are losing. The EU and USA are strengthening Ukraine's army as we speak and Ukraine will have won back it's non-Crimean land by christmas.

There is only one person i can see that is showing themselves to be stupid here. And it aint Putin.

Piliger

Peist2007 wrote: »

There is only one person i can see that is showing themselves to be stupid here. And it aint Putin.

Yes it is. Putin is really coming out of this as capable of little more than acting like a thug. A stupid thug who is now sitting back in his throne trying to figure what he can do next and all he can think of is blocking foreign airlines and apples from Poland. What a laugh.

whatstherush

KahBoom wrote: »

2: The alleged intercepted phone call, where there has been zero impartial independent verification of its validity - that is not evidence.

Back to this KB, I still don't understand, how an independent third party can verify the recording, in a way you feel confident that images and video can be. At the end of the day its a recording of people speaking in Russian, what marker would they use to verify it.

Images and video produced could be any of the previous launches and all that would have to be changed is a time stamp.

The point I'm getting at here is if the the recording can't be verified independently you can't dismiss it because they have no mechanism to verify it.

Elmer Blooker

Peist2007 wrote: »

Have the Americans or the Ukrainians shown the "irrefutable evidence" they said they had the night the plane went down?

No. Compare how quickly the transcripts of MH320 were released and the silence and mystery surrounding MH17. I can only assume at this stage that the stories about the Ukrainian secret police confiscating conversations between crew and air traffic control to be true. The UK authorities are in possession of the black boxes and if they don't release information then it is a very serious breach of international law.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/malaysia/10714907/Revealed-the-final-54-minutes-of-communication-from-MH370.html

darkpagandeath

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

No. Compare how quickly the transcripts of MH320 were released and the silence and mystery surrounding MH17. I can only assume at this stage that the stories about the Ukrainian secret police confiscating conversations between crew and air traffic control to be true. The UK authorities are in possession of the black boxes and if they don't release information then it is a very serious breach of international law.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/malaysia/10714907/Revealed-the-final-54-minutes-of-communication-from-MH370.html

Thought they were being examined by Air Accidents Investigation Branch headquarters in Farnborough, southwest of London.

Brown Bomber

KahBoom wrote: »

Just a reminder again: The fascists in this conflict - the real ones - are on the side of the Ukrainian government.

And Obama has committed to arming, training and funding these Neo-Nazis who make up the Home Guard by 2015. It's going to be a bloodbath.


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057174193&page=58

Peist2007

Piliger wrote: »

Yes it is. Putin is really coming out of this as capable of little more than acting like a thug. A stupid thug who is now sitting back in his throne trying to figure what he can do next and all he can think of is blocking foreign airlines and apples from Poland. What a laugh.

You keep coming out with insults to Putin but i see no actual analysis of anything from you. Ever. Your name must be ironic

Peist2007

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

No. Compare how quickly the transcripts of MH320 were released and the silence and mystery surrounding MH17. I can only assume at this stage that the stories about the Ukrainian secret police confiscating conversations between crew and air traffic control to be true. The UK authorities are in possession of the black boxes and if they don't release information then it is a very serious breach of international law.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/malaysia/10714907/Revealed-the-final-54-minutes-of-communication-from-MH370.html

I was suspicious around the time it happened when they didnt show us the evidence that very night. Now it's simply clear that they do not have any evidence. Which means they lied. Why did they lie?

If there is no cover-up and the Russians/ Russian Separatists are behind this, why not show us? It is clear the majority of Western populations will agree with any sanctions v Putin should this be shown to us. But to expect us to simply believe this without any evidence being shown? After all the lies we were told re WMD's, NSA, etc etc?

Yet there are people here who say "but the BBC said so....". The mind boggles

InTheTrees

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I can only assume at this stage that the stories about the Ukrainian secret police confiscating conversations between crew and air traffic control to be true.

Wait what??

DO you really think that airliners criss crossing europe deal with each individual countries air traffic control?

And worst of all do you really honestly think that no other atc centres can hear whats being said?

Seriously you think the ukrainians have the only copies of atc communication with an international flight flying through their airspace?

Bizarre.

loughside

Piliger wrote: »

But the Russian economy will be driven even further down the drain that it already is whole the current round of sanctions are taking affect.

Yep! keep `em coming,... heh, heh

`Russia may be forced to raise taxes in next year's budget to make up for the impact of Western sanctions imposed over Moscow's Ukraine policy, Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev said on Aug. 5

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/sanctions-may-force-russia-raise-144448105.html

Piliger

loughside wrote: »

Yep! keep `em coming,... heh, heh

`Russia may be forced to raise taxes in next year's budget to make up for the impact of Western sanctions imposed over Moscow's Ukraine policy, Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev said on Aug. 5

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/sanctions-may-force-russia-raise-144448105.html

That's just the beginning. What is very interesting is how quiet Medvedev appears to have been recently. If he steers clear of the mess that Putin is making, he is smarter than he looks.

InTheTrees

Peist2007 wrote: »

I was suspicious around the time it happened when they didnt show us the evidence that very night. Now it's simply clear that they do not have any evidence. Which means they lied. Why did they lie?

The only defense the pro-putin crowd has is to caw on and on about needing conclusive "evidence" that they can then discount as an evil american conspiracy.

Listen, unlike a russian "investigation"(!) a real air crash investigation can take years.

Peist2007

InTheTrees wrote: »

The only defense the pro-putin crowd has is to caw on and on about needing conclusive "evidence" that they can then discount as an evil american conspiracy.

Listen, unlike a russian "investigation"(!) a real air crash investigation can take years.

No and you're being deliberately slippery again. I never mentioned the word "conclusive". And i am not pro-Putin. Why is asking for evidence a sign you are on the Russian's side? You think my only experience of arguing is from the school-yard?!

Show us ANY evidence. ANY. Not faked conversations or twitter pages. Show us the radar. Let us hear the air traffic control tapes. Contradict the radar the Russians have produced. But dont expect me to simply believe the word of liars who have lied to get into war before.

PS if an air crash investigation can take years, why say less than an hour after the plane went down, who did it? Why not wait until the investigation is done? You do realise this crash was the pretext for more sanctions - why not wait for the investigation then?

This is such an obvious stitch-up it's unbelievable

smurfjed

I dearly hope they close them down. The change in flight plans will be miniscule.

Are you sure about that?

DO you really think that airliners criss crossing europe deal with each individual countries air traffic control?

Actually yes they do! You would be very surprised at how many times we change frequency when flying across Europe.

And worst of all do you really honestly think that no other atc centres can hear whats being said?

Do you understand the limitations of VHF transmissions? It is highly unlikely that another civilised ATC centre would be listening.

Seriously you think the ukrainians have the only copies of atc communication with an international flight flying through their airspace?

Yep..... from a civilian point of view.

smurfjed

https://twitter.com/GeorgeTGalloway

Is this guy really an elected politician ?

KahBoom

whatstherush wrote: »

Back to this KB, I still don't understand, how an independent third party can verify the recording, in a way you feel confident that images and video can be. At the end of the day its a recording of people speaking in Russian, what marker would they use to verify it.

Images and video produced could be any of the previous launches and all that would have to be changed is a time stamp.

The point I'm getting at here is if the the recording can't be verified independently you can't dismiss it because they have no mechanism to verify it.

If you're saying it can't be verified, then it's no good as evidence then, is it?

The mechanics of how it would be verified are irrelevant - if it can't be verified by an impartial third party (i.e. we just have to take the Ukrainian governments word, that it is real), then it is not reliable evidence.

InTheTrees

Piliger wrote: »

That's just the beginning. What is very interesting is how quiet Medvedev appears to have been recently. If he steers clear of the mess that Putin is making, he is smarter than he looks.

Well they're probably engineering the next assault on the russian constitution (whats left of it) to ensure putin stays in power.

darkpagandeath

Peist2007 wrote: »

No and you're being deliberately slippery again. I never mentioned the word "conclusive". And i am not pro-Putin. Why is asking for evidence a sign you are on the Russian's side? You think my only experience of arguing is from the school-yard?!

Show us ANY evidence. ANY. Not faked conversations or twitter pages. Show us the radar. Let us hear the air traffic control tapes. Contradict the radar the Russians have produced. But dont expect me to simply believe the word of liars who have lied to get into war before.

PS if an air crash investigation can take years, why say less than an hour after the plane went down, who did it? Why not wait until the investigation is done? You do realise this crash was the pretext for more sanctions - why not wait for the investigation then?

This is such an obvious stitch-up it's unbelievable

Here is an Idea, Maybe just maybe they are collecting all information first analysing it, Then presenting it to the relatives once they have conclusive findings in regards to what happened. Once that is done you may start to see further release of who or what could have caused it. I'm sure governments are aware this is a raw subject to the relatives.

And on the who did it end, separatists were the only people shooting down planes in the area. Why would Ukraine be shooting down planes the separatists have none, and it's well proven at this stage they are a lot of them coming over the boarder and not actual Ukrainian natives.

whatstherush

KahBoom wrote: »

If you're saying it can't be verified, then it's no good as evidence then, is it?

The mechanics of how it would be verified are irrelevant - if it can't be verified by an impartial third party (i.e. we just have to take the Ukrainian governments word, that it is real), then it is not reliable evidence.

So we can say from that, that images and video can't be independently verified also, so why were you looking for them to be released by the US a few days ago?

InTheTrees

Peist2007 wrote: »

No and you're being deliberately slippery again. I never mentioned the word "conclusive".

Conclusive, incontrovertible, undeniable, definitive. Whatever.

We've had 160 pages of pro-putin people demanding we(?) show them(??) proof.

They dont seem to be making any effort to uncover the truth. They just want to deny deny deny.

And its making them look even more guilty, which is really becoming the story because they just dont get it. They're stuck in the 1950's.

We have vlad standing in the front garden in his football kit and the living room window is smashed and the soccer ball is on the floor. And yet all vlad can do is demand eye witnesses.

Piliger

InTheTrees wrote: »

The only defense the pro-putin crowd has is to caw on and on about needing conclusive "evidence" that they can then discount as an evil american conspiracy./quote]

Its a comedy. Nothing more. No on buys it but they get their few roubles and keep dishing their crap.

Elmer Blooker

InTheTrees wrote: »

Wait what??

DO you really think that airliners criss crossing europe deal with each individual countries air traffic control?

And worst of all do you really honestly think that no other atc centres can hear whats being said?

Seriously you think the ukrainians have the only copies of atc communication with an international flight flying through their airspace?

Bizarre.

You seem to be an expect on air traffic control, heres a question for you.
Would air traffic control at Dublin Airport listen in on and record conversations of flights that are passing through say French air space? I would think they are too busy to be concerned about whats going somewhere that they have no jurisdiction over.

This is such an obvious stitch-up it's unbelievable

blackwhite

smurfjed wrote: »

Is this guy really an elected politician ?

That's a fake twitter account.

Just look at the profile to see it's someone trying to smear Galloway (although why I'm not quite sure, Galloway usually can do quite a good job of looking stupid all by himself)

InTheTrees

Seriously you think the ukrainians have the only copies of atc communication with an international flight flying through their airspace?

smurfjed wrote: »

Yep..... from a civilian point of view.

Hmmm. Well they dont. So your conspiracy theory is wrong.

It doesnt take a lot of checking either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocontrol

KahBoom

whatstherush wrote: »

So we can say from that, that images and video can't be independently verified also, so why were you looking for them to be released by the US a few days ago?

You haven't shown that images/videos can't be independently verified - that's a claim you'd need to back up with something.