Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

Vandango

No indisputable proof/evidence for what happened the plane = Let's blame the Russians, start another cold war again and ramp s**t up.

It's an undisputed fact that hundreds of children were murdered in Gaza by the IDF = Lets do f**k all about it and above all, let's not piss the Israelis off.

InTheTrees

Vandango wrote: »

No indisputable proof/evidence for what happened the plane = Let's blame the Russians, start another cold war again and ramp s**t up.

You dont think maybe shooting down a civilian plane is ramping sh*t up just a tad already huh?

Vandango

InTheTrees wrote: »

You dont think maybe shooting down a civilian plane is ramping sh*t up just a tad already huh?

More than the 11,000 killed and wounded in Gaza? No, but then some lives are more valuable than others.


Anyway, where is the 100% incontrovertible proof for who shot it down?

KahBoom

InTheTrees wrote: »

Oh? Why it is irrelevant?

You're connecting the legitimacy of the investigation to its independance so it is relevant isnt it?

KahBoom wrote:

That's irrelevant - I don't have to identify a third party.

I'm going to assume at this point, that your sole purpose in this thread is to drive it in pointless circles, by deliberately and obtusely ignoring what people have already said to you - I've had this particular debate 4x-5x times with you so far, having to repeat the same basic point again and again - sticking you on ignore from here-on.

InTheTrees

Vandango wrote: »

More than the 11,000 killed and wounded in Gaza? No, but then some lives are more valuable than others.

Gaza?

I dont get the connection. A plane full of dutch people on a Malaysian jet shot down by russians is connected to gaza how?

InTheTrees

KahBoom wrote: »

I'm going to assume at this point, that your sole purpose in this thread is to drive it in pointless circles, by deliberately and obtusely ignoring what people have already said to you - I've had this particular debate 4x-5x times with you so far, having to repeat the same basic point again and again - sticking you on ignore from here-on.

Seriously. No you havent.

I dont get why the identity of the participants in the investigation into the crash is irrelevant?

smurfjed

To the Dutch? What about the ICAO?

If you read the previous 164 pages, you will find that i have already posted the answer, ICAO do NOT conduct accident investigations.

Did you learn what a VOR is yet? Or how VHF is used for navigation?

Wow so now you are telling me that i can use ATC VHF radio communications for navigation, that sounds so cool Once again, you are the person who questioned why the ATC to Aircraft communications weren't recorded by anther ATC unit in another country. I told you to look up the limitations of VHF communications, but it still appears that you don't understand the difference between VHF communications as used with ATC and the use of a VOR!

Do you understand the functions of Air traffic control? And that you can talk on the radio to someone in another country?

You still have this idea that there is only ONE ATC building in the whole of Europe called EUROCONTROL, and you are so wrong.

Flying through Europe from the south, you will start with Greek Air Traffic Controllers, then Brindisi, then Rome, then Swiss, then Rhine Germany, followed by Frankfurt Germany, followed by Maastrict, followed by London, actually a couple of London frequencies followed by Shannon and finally the airport specific controllers if you are landing in Shannon. The only common part is that you now only get one invoice from EUROCONTROL.

InTheTrees

smurfjed wrote: »

but it still appears that you don't understand the difference between VHF communications as used with ATC and the use of a VOR!

ha ha ha ha

So you've had to add in the "as used with with ATC" to differentiate VHF speech from VHF for navigation.

SO you've learned something at least. Well done!

:pac:

InTheTrees

smurfjed wrote: »

I told you to look up the limitations of VHF communications

Its weird that I can listen to VHF communications in another part of the world over the interwebs then isnt it?

InTheTrees

smurfjed wrote: »

You still have this idea that there is only ONE ATC building in the whole of Europe called EUROCONTROL, and you are so wrong.

No I dont. Why do you think that?

smurfjed

Do you remember writing this?

DO you really think that airliners criss crossing europe deal with each individual countries air traffic control?

And worst of all do you really honestly think that no other atc centres can hear whats being said?

Seriously you think the ukrainians have the only copies of atc communication with an international flight flying through their airspace?

Bizarre.

Its weird that I can listen to VHF communications in another part of the world over the interwebs then isnt it?

And your point is? Once again I assume that you are familiar with LIVEATC.COM

smurfjed

Another question for you, what exactly do you expect the ATC/Aircraft transcripts to reveal?

darkpagandeath

KahBoom wrote: »

I'm going to assume at this point, that your sole purpose in this thread is to drive it in pointless circles, by deliberately and obtusely ignoring what people have already said to you - I've had this particular debate 4x-5x times with you so far, having to repeat the same basic point again and again - sticking you on ignore from here-on.

You know you quoted and attacked one of your own posts ?

Originally Posted by KahBoom
That's irrelevant - I don't have to identify a third party.

KahBoom

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You know you quoted and attacked one of your own posts ?

I quoted my own post, showing the part he deliberately ignored - the bolded part I highlighted, is what he quoted, and it answers the very question he asked in his post - so it's my opinion he is quote-mining, to waste time and derail discussion.

Elmer Blooker

http://rt.com/news/178484-putin-russia-sanctions-agriculture/
This includes us I presume as our so called politicians are incapable of thinking for themselves and do as they're told. Hopefully not too many jobs will be lost here but some posters here seem to be favour of longer dole queues.
I can only admire the USA though, they really are experts at what they do which is stirring up **** far away from their own doorstep for their own economic interests. It would suit them if the EU fell apart and you better believe it!
I am more and more convinced with each passing day that the shooting down of MH17 was orchestrated by the CIA and their puppets in Kiev, only today a team of US "experts" arrived in Kiev to "investigate" MH17 - what are they doing there? What is there to "investigate"? Obama has told us that Russia is 100% guilty.

darkpagandeath

KahBoom wrote: »

I quoted my own post, showing the part he deliberately ignored - the bolded part I highlighted, is what he quoted, and it answers the very question he asked in his post - so it's my opinion he is quote-mining, to waste time and derail discussion.

Fair enough, on the independent verification. The black box information is being verified and dealt with in the Uk by aviation experts would that be considered independent enough ?

darkpagandeath

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

http://rt.com/news/178484-putin-russia-sanctions-agriculture/
This includes us I presume as our so called politicians are incapable of thinking for themselves and do as they're told. Hopefully not too many jobs will be lost here but some posters here seem to be favour of longer dole queues.
I can only admire the USA though, they really are experts at what they do which is stirring up **** far away from their own doorstep for their own economic interests. It would suit them if the EU fell apart and you better believe it!
I am more and more convinced with each passing day that the shooting down of MH17 was orchestrated by the CIA and their puppets in Kiev, only today a team of US "experts" arrived in Kiev to "investigate" MH17 - what are they doing there? What is there to "investigate"? Obama has told us that Russia is 100% guilty.

Would they not be guys from Boeing, and air crash investigators. Pretty standard for an American produced plane. FAA would want to know what went on as well.

Elmer Blooker

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Would they not be guys from Boeing, and air crash investigators. Pretty standard for an American produced plane. FAA would want to know what went on as well.

http://www.nst.com.my/node/20556
military personnel according to this.

darkpagandeath

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

http://www.nst.com.my/node/20556
military personnel according to this.

Not being mentioned on any Normal news service, Bar the one you linked and RT. Can you find it on any other regular news site ? RT saying from Pentagon.

KahBoom

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Fair enough, on the independent verification. The black box information is being verified and dealt with in the Uk by aviation experts would that be considered independent enough ?

Sure, the black box evidence will likely stand on its own merits easily enough, with no lack of aviation experts able to verify it.

darkpagandeath

KahBoom wrote: »

Sure, the black box evidence will likely stand on its own merits easily enough, with no lack of aviation experts able to verify it.

Ok so once that is done and verifies the plane depressurised from an external impact i.e shot down by a missile. You could then have the West present evidence of satellite images of BUK in separatists area, A BUK with missiles missing and maybe scorched grass. Would that be enough evidence to point the finger ? Or would a 3rd party who has satellites in the area need to present them like China for example.

InTheTrees

KahBoom wrote: »

I quoted my own post, showing the part he deliberately ignored - the bolded part I highlighted, is what he quoted, and it answers the very question he asked in his post - so it's my opinion he is quote-mining, to waste time and derail discussion.

Umm. I've been asking over and over for some detail of what would be an acceptable independent investigation and you keep saying its not relevant for some reason.

Its a perfectly legitimate question because the russians will probably object to any result of the investigation. It will all be discounted as an evil western plot.

InTheTrees

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Would they not be guys from Boeing, and air crash investigators. Pretty standard for an American produced plane. FAA would want to know what went on as well.

Also its a war zone so what would be wrong with them buying the best "security contractors" that money can buy to protect them while they're there?

They're not required to risk their lives.

KahBoom

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Ok so once that is done and verifies the plane depressurised from an external impact i.e shot down by a missile. You could then have the West present evidence of satellite images of BUK in separatists area, A BUK with missiles missing and maybe scorched grass. Would that be enough evidence to point the finger ? Or would a 3rd party who has satellites in the area need to present them like China for example.

I believe the area was covered in cloud at the time, but not sure. How much evidence is 'enough' really depends on the type and quality of evidence provided - there's no way of setting an arbitrary goal-marker in advance, of what constitutes 'enough', you just have to see what evidence comes about.

KahBoom

InTheTrees wrote: »

Umm. I've been asking over and over for some detail of what would be an acceptable independent investigation and you keep saying its not relevant for some reason.

Its a perfectly legitimate question because the russians will probably object to any result of the investigation. It will all be discounted as an evil western plot.

No you were asking nitpicking questions about who would do an independent investigation, and the finer details of how such an investigation would be performed - all totally irrelevant, because the only thing that is actually relevant, is that presented 'evidence' is independently verified.

It's a form of shifting the goalposts on your part, where instead of acknowledging that independent verification is needed, you just keep asking more and more nitpicking questions in ever greater detail, to delay as long as possible, acknowledging that 'evidence' is not credible, unless it has been independently verified.

Elmer Blooker

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/06/russia-bans-imports-eu-us-sanctions
no one (I'm not surprised) was expecting this! People were deluding themselves that Russia couldn't survive without the west but if you know anything about history the Russians are a very resilient lot and will survive without their Irish beef.
I can almost hear the champagne corks popping in Washington from here
as the gullible EU has been taken for a ride - mission accomplished - the yanks always win!

KahBoom

Ya - it seems so blindingly obvious that Europe had nothing to gain from this, and it wasn't even Europe helping to fund groups destabilizing the Ukrainian government, it was the US...

So yea, mission accomplished by the US - pit the EU against Russia, while at the same time having Europe paralyzed by an ineffective EU/ECB - with no viable plan for economic recovery - and have the IMF and international financiers clean up house in Europe, buying up assets from countries with underperforming economies - this is only going to accelerate from here on.

Staggeringly dumb move by Europe.

Elmer Blooker

"The list includes milk powder, butter and cheese,” the source said, adding that this also includes mass production cheeses.

very bad news for this country.

loughside

“to promote peace and stability in the region,”

http://rickrozoff.wordpress.com/2014/08/06/ukraine-war-u-s-guided-missile-warship-to-enter-black-sea/

well, thats good, hope it works out

Elmer Blooker

loughside wrote: »

“to promote peace and stability in the region,”

http://rickrozoff.wordpress.com/2014/08/06/ukraine-war-u-s-guided-missile-warship-to-enter-black-sea/

well, thats good, hope it works out

well, thats good. nice to see you post a link from an anti NATO site.