Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

Piliger

KahBoom wrote: »

Staggeringly dumb move by Europe.

Good news for Europe. Minimal cost and more and more sanctions on Russia. The less we have to do with them or trade with them the better.
This will be a major boost for the EU's economy and it will drive us to more self reliance and independence from Putin's fascist rule. If the Russian people want to keep Putin then they can have him but they can develop their own economy without our help any more.
The sooner have no trade whatsoever with Russia the better.

Piliger

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

very bad news for this country.

Not at all. Minimal effect. We shouldn't be trading with Russia anyway.

KahBoom

Piliger wrote: »

Good news for Europe. Minimal cost and more and more sanctions on Russia. The less we have to do with them or trade with them the better.
This will be a major boost for the EU's economy and it will drive us to more self reliance and independence from Putin's fascist rule.

Yea that makes perfect sense:
1: Cut off third largest trading partner of EU
2: ???
3: Profit

Piliger wrote: »

If the Russian people want to keep Putin then they can have him but they can develop their own economy without our help any more.
The sooner have no trade whatsoever with Russia the better.

Ya that sums up US policy nicely: "You can have democratic elections if you want, but if you choose the wrong leader, we'll engage in collective punishment against your entire country".

sparksfly

Piliger wrote: »

Good news for Europe. Minimal cost and more and more sanctions on Russia. The less we have to do with them or trade with them the better.
This will be a major boost for the EU's economy and it will drive us to more self reliance and independence from Putin's fascist rule. If the Russian people want to keep Putin then they can have him but they can develop their own economy without our help any more.
The sooner have no trade whatsoever with Russia the better.

Unbelievable claptrap. We should trade with the worlds biggest terrorist state, the US and its NATO cronies who between them have wreaked havoc around the globe, including supporting the slaughter machine that is Israel? We should boycott Russia for reacting to a western led coup in the Ukraine which saw the control of a portion of its naval fleet by an illegally installed government?

Your rose coloured view of the good ol USA is breathtaking.

Elmer Blooker

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025348632
just a reminder what this escalating sanctions war is all about, this is whats happening in Kiev today, its seems the place is out of control. You won't hear about this in the western media.
Add Ukraine to the list, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya,
What a coincidence that Obama urged a reluctant EU to step up sanctions on July 16th, the day before the shooting down of MH17.
By the way, ignore Piliger, anyone who says the loss of €235m to the Irish economy is "minimal" isn't worth replying to.

Piliger

sparksfly wrote: »

Unbelievable claptrap. We should trade with the worlds biggest terrorist state, the US and its NATO cronies who between them have wreaked havoc around the globe, including supporting the slaughter machine that is Israel? We should boycott Russia for reacting to a western led coup in the Ukraine which saw the control of a portion of its naval fleet by an illegally installed government?

Your rose coloured view of the good ol USA is breathtaking.

Your subservience to your Putin fascist master is comical. We should stop all trade with Russia and Europe needs to beef up NATO and start occupying forward bases in Poland and Ukraine once Ukraine joins NATO. If Putin wants a new cold war then fine. We did fine last time and we'll do fine again. What a dickhead he is.

Piliger

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025348632
just a reminder what this escalating sanctions war is all about, this is whats happening in Kiev today, its seems the place is out of control. You won't hear about this in the western media.
Add Ukraine to the list, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya,
What a coincidence that Obama urged a reluctant EU to step up sanctions on July 16th, the day before the shooting down of MH17.
By the way, ignore Piliger, anyone who says the loss of €235m to the Irish economy is "minimal" isn't worth replying to.

More democraticunderground BS. 235m is an overstatement anyway and is irrelevant to the Irish economy. We need to suck it up and we will find other markets easy enough. This sanction campaign is being brilliantly coordinate by Obama and the EU is showing a lot of sophistication and leadership. Russia is hurting badly already and the next round will do even better.

Piliger

KahBoom wrote: »

Ya that sums up US policy nicely: "You can have democratic elections if you want, but if you choose the wrong leader, we'll engage in collective punishment against your entire country".

There isn't a smell of democracy in Russia. If you think that then you've been asleep for quite a few years.
The sooner we stop all trade with Russia the better. It will bolster our economies in Europe and help our recovery.

KahBoom

EDIT: *snip* - fúck it, not worth replying to.

pablo128

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025348632
just a reminder what this escalating sanctions war is all about, this is whats happening in Kiev today, its seems the place is out of control. You won't hear about this in the western media.
Add Ukraine to the list, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya,
What a coincidence that Obama urged a reluctant EU to step up sanctions on July 16th, the day before the shooting down of MH17.
By the way, ignore Piliger, anyone who says the loss of €235m to the Irish economy is "minimal" isn't worth replying to.

We lose twice that to sick pay in the public service per year.

WakeUp

Piliger wrote: »

Your subservience to your Putin fascist master is comical. We should stop all trade with Russia and Europe needs to beef up NATO and start occupying forward bases in Poland and Ukraine once Ukraine joins NATO. If Putin wants a new cold war then fine. We did fine last time and we'll do fine again. What a dickhead he is.

Ukraine will never join NATO. and if it looks like it's ever going to happen then prepare yourself for war. NATO forward bases in Ukraine. give it a break will you.

Piliger

WakeUp wrote: »

Ukraine will never join NATO. and if it looks like it's ever going to happen then prepare yourself for war. NATO forward bases in Ukraine. give it a break will you.

No. Ukraine will be in NATO next year. And Putin knows his army is no match for any combination in NATO. Putin is all show, all bluster. He's a typical small man inadequate who needs his stupid huntin' shootin' fishin' photoshoots.

jelenka

Ukraine will never be in NATO, why do you keep saying that it will?
Nor it will ever be in EU - who needs a country in the union that is practically a war zone, with a part of its territory trying to break away and with no money, they are completely and beyond broke. I doubt that any eu states will want to support them financially.
Also, while the sanctions will hit Russians hard, its not going to be as bad as you might think - usa and eu are not the whole world and there are plenty of other countries that can import ( Belarus, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Argentina, China etc etc.)

WakeUp

Piliger wrote: »

No. Ukraine will be in NATO next year. And Putin knows his army is no match for any combination in NATO. Putin is all show, all bluster. He's a typical small man inadequate who needs his stupid huntin' shootin' fishin' photoshoots.

But Ukraine won't be in NATO not now not next year not ever. if you truly believe they will be you really aren't paying attention. ok I'm out.

Piliger

WakeUp wrote: »

But Ukraine won't be in NATO not now not next year not ever. if you truly believe they will be you really aren't paying attention. ok I'm out.

It will be in the EU in a few years but it will be in NATO in 2015. As soon as it gains back it's main territory other than Crimea. That will allow NATO to bring Ukraine into the family an secure it's borders. The people of Ukraine and it's president are more determined than ever now and Putin's effort to scare them has completely backfired.

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

loughside

Only a few days into the sanctions and....

` Mr Putin has already proposed the introduction of a 3% sales tax as a way of filling holes in regional budgets. The government has also announced it will siphon off private pension-fund contributions to the federal budget, prompting a deputy economic-development minister to declare he was “ashamed” of the move. He was fired the next day.`

as per usual the little fascist makes his own people suffer

http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21611141-vladimir-putin-pretends-he-can-make-russia-self-sufficient-and-strong-how-lose-friends

Peist2007

loughside wrote: »

Only a few days into the sanctions and....

` Mr Putin has already proposed the introduction of a 3% sales tax as a way of filling holes in regional budgets. The government has also announced it will siphon off private pension-fund contributions to the federal budget, prompting a deputy economic-development minister to declare he was “ashamed” of the move. He was fired the next day.`

as per usual the little fascist makes his own people suffer

http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21611141-vladimir-putin-pretends-he-can-make-russia-self-sufficient-and-strong-how-lose-friends

Did Putin sleep with your wife or something? Yourself and Pilliger seem to have to use derogatory terms when describing Putin. We get it. You dont like Putin. But let's discuss the matter as adults. Very hard to respond to you when you seem to think that the effects of sanctions should have been paid for by Putin out of his own pocket or as if that would happen ever. It adds nothing.

Piliger

loughside wrote: »

Only a few days into the sanctions and....

` Mr Putin has already proposed the introduction of a 3% sales tax as a way of filling holes in regional budgets. The government has also announced it will siphon off private pension-fund contributions to the federal budget, prompting a deputy economic-development minister to declare he was “ashamed” of the move. He was fired the next day.`

as per usual the little fascist makes his own people suffer

It is classic little fascist dictator tactics. He makes his people suffer and blames those nasty foreigners for all of the troubles. He controls all the media and now the internet so people learn less and less about the truth and prosperity of the rest of the world.
Russian people will have to decide when enough is enough. They handed over their freedom to Putin, something no western person would ever do, because they don't think they can handle democracy. They had their chance to control their country and be free, but turned their backs on it.
Now they are paying the price and I don't think most people have any sympathy for them.
The EU will prosper and strengthen, and Russia will return to a caricature of what it was in the soviet days. Quite pathetic really.

Nonamigo

Piliger do you know many Russians yourself? I don't mean russian speaking people but rather people FROM Russia. Because I do. I am Russian. Merried to a Russian woman. All my friends are Russians. As all the relatives. While you may read alot of crap in western newspapers, Russians are not afraid of these sanctions. Quite the opposite. Just today I was on one russian forum and you know what most people are saying?- feck it, we'll do fine. We'll start producing more of our own stuff.
Of course there are a lot of things we can blame Putin for, but so is ANY other president. As an old saying goes "if our enemy is talking sh!te about us, it means we are doing it right".

aloyisious

loughside wrote: »

“to promote peace and stability in the region,”

http://rickrozoff.wordpress.com/2014/08/06/ukraine-war-u-s-guided-missile-warship-to-enter-black-sea/

well, thats good, hope it works out

The Examiner has a piece about this naval move and other land moves in the region. Seem's the US Ship has been in and out of the Black Sea several times recently.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/world/us-missile-cruiser-enters-the-black-sea-278728.html

InTheTrees

Peist2007 wrote: »

Did Putin sleep with your wife or something? Yourself and Pilliger seem to have to use derogatory terms when describing Putin. We get it. You dont like Putin. But let's discuss the matter as adults.

I'd love it if someone could explain how putin has held the office of president followed by prime minister followed by president then prime minister again and now president again.

Can anybody say what political office putin will hold next?

Does this look like a political system with any kind of long term credibility?

Does this look like the kind of country that you would invest your life savings in?

InTheTrees

Its sad what putin is doing to russia.

"Russian President Vladimir Putin is clamping down on Internet criticism with a new law requiring Internet companies to store Russian user information on data centers in Russia. Putin signed the law on Tuesday of this week, an action that could “could chill criticism on foreign social networking sites like Facebook and Twitter,” according to Agence France-Presse."

More than 3000 followers and you have to register as "Media" in russia. No doubt so you can be threatened if you say anything negative about the regime.

http://www.salon.com/2014/07/23/putin_tightens_grip_on_internet_signs_new_law_requiring_mass_storage_of_russians_data/

InTheTrees

WakeUp wrote: »

Ukraine will never join NATO. and if it looks like it's ever going to happen then prepare yourself for war. NATO forward bases in Ukraine. give it a break will you.

I dont get why it would be so bad for Ukraine to join NATO?

Why would you object to that?

Piliger

InTheTrees wrote: »

I dont get why it would be so bad for Ukraine to join NATO?

Why would you object to that?

Russia wants to keep Ukraine at it's mercy so that it becomes basically a slave state like Russia itself. NATO will give Ukraine the protection it needs and Ukraine's trade will rotate toward the west and the EU.
Putin has steadily transformed Russia into a helpless vassal. Their industry is on the slide. Their agriculture is suffering because of machinery issues. Soon they will be begging America for grain like they did under the soviet era. Putin has squirrelled away more than 20billion according to international bankers, and he spends his weekend pretending to hunt and shoot and fish. He is having a ball.

WakeUp

InTheTrees wrote: »

I dont get why it would be so bad for Ukraine to join NATO?

Why would you object to that?

I really don't want to get involved in this thread, I'm following it and reading it alright but I don't want to get involved. though since you asked me a question I'll answer it. I don't want Ukraine anywhere near NATO because I believe their leaders in the main are a bunch of incompetent hot headed dangerous phuckwits. Yulia let's nuke Russia being a prime example. and NATO membership for Ukraine is a red line for Russia and they are deadly serious about that. anyone paying attention will realise this. I'm not down with the idea of thermonuclear war with Russia over Ukraine. I'm not down with that idea at all.

KahBoom

The drivel/shíte is running thick in this thread right now - seems posters beating the war-drums against Russia, have given up any pretense of actual argument, and are just resorting to the childish and tiresome 'Putin=Hitler' equivalence.
The 'evidence' backing sanctions against Russia fails to hold up to scrutiny? No problem - just label Putin Hitler, as a post-hoc justification for any and all hostile actions against Russia.

Also, Russia is an oligarchy, not a fascist state - but the reason the term 'oligarchy' isn't used, is because this is what western nations are slowly becoming now as well (particularly the US).

Posters here are beating the war-drums in support of the US, and their imposing of sanctions - yet here is a list of actual authoritarian/fascist regimes, that the US have supported over the years:

Latin America
Porfirio Díaz (Mexico) (1876–1911)
Institutional Revolutionary Party (Mexico) (1929–2000)
Juan Vicente Gómez (Venezuela) (1908–35)
Manuel Estrada Cabrera (Guatemala) (1898–1920)
Jorge Ubico (Guatemala) (1931–44)
Fulgencio Batista (Cuba) (1952–59)
Rafael Trujillo (Dominican Republic) (1930–61)
Efraín Ríos Montt and the rest of the military junta in Guatemala (1954-86)
Revolutionary Government Junta of El Salvador (1979–82)
Hugo Banzer (Bolivia) (1971–78, 1997–2001)
National Reorganization Process (Argentina) (1976–83)
Brazilian military government (1964–85)
Somoza family (Nicaragua) (1936–79)
François Duvalier (Haiti) (1957–71)
Jean-Claude Duvalier (Haiti) (1971–86)
Omar Torrijos (Panama) (1968–81)
Manuel Noriega (Panama) (1983–89)
Alfredo Stroessner (Paraguay) (1954–89)
Augusto Pinochet (Chile) (1973–90)

Asia
Syngman Rhee (South Korea) (1948–60)
Park Chung-hee (South Korea) (1961–79)
Chun Doo-Hwan (South Korea) (1979-88)
Ngo Dinh Diem (South Vietnam) (1955–63)
Lon Nol (Cambodia) (1970–75)
Yahya Khan (Pakistan) (1971)
Mohammad Reza Pahlavi (Iran) (1941–79)
Ferdinand Marcos (Philippines) (1965–86)
Saddam Hussein (Iraq) (1982–90)
Suharto (Indonesia) (1967–98)
Truong Tan Sang (Vietnam) (2011–present)
Islam Karimov (Uzbekistan) (1990–present)
Pervez Musharraf (Pakistan) (1999–2008)
Emomalii Rahmon (Tajikistan) (1994–present)
Gurbanguly Berdimuhamedow (Turkmenistan) (2006–present)
House of Saud (Saudi Arabia) (1945–present)

Africa
King Hassan II, predecesors and successors (Morocco) (1777-present)
Apartheid South Africa (1948–94)
Meles Zenawi (Ethiopia) (1991–2012)
Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo (Equatorial Guinea) (1979–present)
Mobutu Sese Seko (Democratic Republic of the Congo) (1965–97)
Hissène Habré (Chad) (1982–90)
Hosni Mubarak (Egypt) (1981-2011)
Idriss Déby (Chad) (1990–present)
Yoweri Museveni (Uganda) (1986–present)

Europe
Greek military junta of 1967–74
Franjo Tuđman (Croatia) (1990–99)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_of_authoritarian_regimes

The US is probably the greatest supporter of dictatorships and authoritarian/fascist regimes in the world (not to mention 'terrorist'/racist states like Israel) - nobody is going to believe they give a shít about 'freedom' or democracy in Russia (or anywhere else for that matter), it's just another excuse to push for increased tensions and a new Cold War - 'terrorists' are no longer a fashionable/credible excuse for the massive US military-industrial-complex and surveillance-state, so they need to manufacture a new bogeyman to justify it (Putin).

The US went in and destroyed Russia economically in the 90's, by having the IMF implement the 'Washington Consensus' neoliberal policies, which led to a wave of corruption, financial pillaging and privatizations, that actually helped to create the oligarchs that are running Russia right now - the US effectively turned Russia into an oligarchy.

Sound familiar? That's what's slowly happening to Europe through increased austerity and privatization, that's what the IMF was (and is) about to do to Ukraine, and much of world is in for a new bout of 'Washington Consensus' austerity, when the next financial crisis hits - which is looking like it may not be far away now.

SeanW

WakeUp wrote:

I really don't want to get involved in this thread, I'm following it and reading it alright but I don't want to get involved. though since you asked me a question I'll answer it. I don't want Ukraine anywhere near NATO because I believe their leaders in the main are a bunch of incompetent hot headed dangerous phuckwits. Yulia let's nuke Russia being a prime example. and NATO membership for Ukraine is a red line for Russia and they are deadly serious about that. anyone paying attention will realise this. I'm not down with the idea of thermonuclear war with Russia over Ukraine. I'm not down with that idea at all.

And I'm not down with the idea of murderous, imperialist scum who have a history of colonisation, aggression and genocide towards various smaller states dictate to ANYONE what relations they should have with those same states.

KahBoom

SeanW wrote: »

And I'm not down with the idea of murderous, imperialist scum who have a history of colonisation, aggression and genocide towards various smaller states dictate to ANYONE what relations they should have with those same states.

That description perfectly fits the US - right down to genocide, with what they are assisting Israel with against Palestine (nevermind their own local history of genocide against native Indian's).

The US have no business or moral position, to tell any country in the world what to do - by the US's own terms, they should be under sanctions for their own aggressive and illegal wars throughout the middle east.

Ukraine being brought into NATO, is a hostile move by the US against Russia - and there's even direct evidence of the US funneling money into groups that supported the destabilization of the Ukrainian government.

It's like Russia funding destabilization of the Mexican government, to try get a regime more friendly to their own international interests, with the future option of installing missile batteries in Mexico, pointed against the US (which is undoubtedly part of the long-term plan for Ukraine in NATO) - no way would the US stand for that, yet here people are expecting Russia to, in a country right on their doorstep.

Peist2007

SeanW wrote: »

And I'm not down with the idea of murderous, imperialist scum who have a history of colonisation, aggression and genocide towards various smaller states dictate to ANYONE what relations they should have with those same states.

Which side are you talking about? The above is way too general to be clearly one or the other