Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

KahBoom

InTheTrees wrote: »

Well you dont seem to care about the ukrainians at all. All your posts are about russia russia russia.

And how this effects russia. You havent shown a single shred of sympathy for anything the ukrainians might be going through.

Again, more hysterical nonsense - you haven't shown any sympathy for the Ukrainian's yourself here, you know that hasn't been a part of the discussion at all - you don't give a toss about them really, just want to beat the war drums against Russia.

I care about civilians on all sides - which is exactly why I don't want escalation towards war - you however, don't care at all for civilians on the Russian side for one, and I'd put your claims at caring for civilians on any side, as dubious at best, since war harms all sides.

jelenka

InTheTrees wrote: »

I was actually talking about ALL ukrainians.

You russians already have the place carved up I see.

You do know that Ukrainians are Russian- Ukrainians in donbas region ? And really , relax , Russia does not need the Ukrainian territory , or any other territory at all , people need to stop this crap about russia invading , land grabbing and all that bs.
They did however need Crimea returned to them due to US threat and Nato .

darkpagandeath

buried wrote: »

That argument makes no sense though if you are like some on this thread who firmly believe that the Russian regime is a meglomaniac, terrorist, fascist, blood thirsty millieu of crazy people, I don't know if you personally feel that way but if you do hold that viewpoint too, how can you claim the next minute that this 'regime of evil' WON'T use nuclear weaponry if faced with a total defeat? I mean, if faced with defeat, isn't that exactly the apocalyptic tactic that will be deployed by 'maniac terrorist' types? Or now they won't? That they are just as 'level headed' as the regimes here in the west? Maybe then dialouge may be the key to resolve this?
Maybe kick out the actual fascist, anti-Jewish, anti-Russian, Nazi groups in power in Kiev? Groups like the Neo-Nazi Svoboda party, a gang of violent thugs who celebrate the extermination of Russian people by the hands of OUN/B - German Nazi SS Death Squads back in WW2 each year?
Because thats what this is about, if anybody thinks that Russia (even if they were led by a Mother Teresa type and not Putin) are simply going to allow a government of Neo-Nazi's - backed by the CIA, backed by a German led EU, Neo-Nazi's openly hostile to Russia and Russians, set up an armed regime beside Russia 70 years after the horror's of WW2, well then your just simply deluded, or have no concept of actual modern history.

And furthermore, all of you gung-ho, freedom and democracy loving Europeans, better keep an eye on this too - Svoboda setting up party chapters in Frankfurt, Cologne and Munich.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/indirect-berlin-support-for-ukrainian-right-wing-extremists-svoboda-a-959073.html

No need to worry about these guys though I suppose? Svoboda. A great bunch of Ukrainian Nazis.

Why would there be Nuclear war if a Invading Russian army was contained, defeated then pushed back into Russia ? Everyone seems to love their instant Nuclear option. The only way there would be this if it was NATO invading Russia and basically destroying cities, Until Russia decided to Launch. Lets leave the CT out, I think NATO would only react if Russia actually invaded Ukraine defeated it's army and captured the country. And I think that would only happen if Russia started to look at other soviet block countries that left the USSR. You have to remember soviet times You were not just dealing with Russia you had other countries in the soviet union, An empire not just the people in Russia.

darkpagandeath

jelenka wrote: »

You do know that Ukrainians are Russian- Ukrainians in donbas region ? And really , relax , Russia does not need the Ukrainian territory , or any other territory at all , people need to stop this crap about russia invading , land grabbing and all that bs.
They did however need Crimea returned to them due to US threat and Nato .

Must have missed that, When did NATO start mass training exercises on the border of Russia ? Think you will find it started the other way around. NATO has done very little, Russia on the other hand has been sabre rattling on Ukraine border for ages since this kicked off. Again this is not soviet era what dos NATO gain by threatening Russia off it’s own bat ?

InTheTrees

jelenka wrote: »

people need to stop this crap about russia invading , land grabbing and all that bs.

Exactly. Russia needs to know that it cant interfere with eastern Ukraine.

And the sanctions will remain because of their grab of Crimea.

buried

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Why would there be Nuclear war if a Invading Russian army was contained, defeated then pushed back into Russia ? Everyone seems to love their instant Nuclear option. The only way there would be this if it was NATO invading Russia and basically destroying cities, Until Russia decided to Launch. Lets leave the CT out, I think NATO would only react if Russia actually invaded Ukraine defeated it's army and captured the country. And I think that would only happen if Russia started to look at other soviet block countries that left the USSR. You have to remember soviet times You were not just dealing with Russia you had other countries in the soviet union, An empire not just the people in Russia.

Jeez I never said there will be a Nuclear war though did I ? I'm pointing out that some on here believe the Russian Government is 'crazy', my point is - if you believe the Russian government is 'crazy and unstable' isnt a nuclear conflict exactly the type of situation a 'crazy and unstable' government may actually look at and consider, or is the Russian government actually a level headed, not crazy, not unstable and a regime you can have diolouge with? Diolouge such as removing hostile Neo-Nazi groups from power in Ukraine which would in fact end this current conflict?

Piliger

InTheTrees wrote: »

Ahhh. Poor rooskies. Just as they decide to do some invaisions themselves the nasty old yankees (the worst invaders evar!) decide to defend their ally.

Maybe Russia should go back to murdering chechens?

:pac:

They must be feeling rusty an want some more practice.

Piliger

InTheTrees wrote: »

Exactly. Russia needs to know that it cant interfere with eastern Ukraine.

And the sanctions will remain because of their grab of Crimea.

Exactly. And they will get worse. We have only seen the first rounds as yet. We need to decouple of Russia completely imho.

InTheTrees

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Everyone seems to love their instant Nuclear option.

The russians like to threaten us with it.

They have little else.

darkpagandeath

buried wrote: »

Jeez I never said there will be a Nuclear war though did I ? I'm pointing out that some on here believe the Russian Government is 'crazy', my point is - if you believe the Russian government is 'crazy and unstable' isnt a nuclear conflict exactly the type of situation a 'crazy and unstable' government may actually look at and consider, or is the Russian government actually a level headed, not crazy, not unstable and a regime you can have diolouge with? Diolouge such as removing hostile Neo-Nazi groups from power in Ukraine which would in fact end this current conflict?

So Russia does not have loads of them groups it's self ? Russia has loads of ultra nationalist groups. And i thought these guys were getting removed that's why they are creating a new government. They are a minority in the Ukrainian government. Russia had no problems with the guy they had in power, Ukrainians did though that's why they got rid of him. Stopping the EU deal was the last straw for them.

Piliger

InTheTrees wrote: »

The russians like to threaten us with it.

They have little else.

Just Putin's idiotic dare games.

Excellent article here setting out how Putin's stupidity is transforming Russia into a vassal state for the Chinese:
" .. reduce Russia to a vassal state of China, a supplier of commodities with a development model that dooms it to backwardness. "It is a dangerous illusion. We are witnessing the funeral of Russia,” said Aleksandr Kokh, a former top Kremlin official. "

KahBoom

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Why would there be Nuclear war if a Invading Russian army was contained, defeated then pushed back into Russia ? Everyone seems to love their instant Nuclear option. The only way there would be this if it was NATO invading Russia and basically destroying cities, Until Russia decided to Launch. Lets leave the CT out, I think NATO would only react if Russia actually invaded Ukraine defeated it's army and captured the country. And I think that would only happen if Russia started to look at other soviet block countries that left the USSR. You have to remember soviet times You were not just dealing with Russia you had other countries in the soviet union, An empire not just the people in Russia.

Eh, where's the 'conspiracy' for that to be a CT?

The US and NATO have a history of engaging in illegal wars of aggression - and since we're so fond of Hitler comparisons - much like Nazi Germany's illegal invasions of other countries.

Absolutely no reason at all, to believe that NATO would stay out of Russia if this became a war, and past precedent of illegal wars, gives reason to believe NATO would escalate - there's a reason the previous cold war was fought largely by proxy, because there's no way to tell how direct conflict between NATO and Russian forces might escalate.

jelenka

The thread was about the plane that was shot down, there has been no evidence provided as to who is responsible, yet somehow everyone decided that it is Russia and the crap people are coming out with is incredibly unreasonable - everyone wants sanctions, war etc. What is it with this hate of Russia and everything to do with it? Why noone imposes sanctions on US, who repeatedly invaded other countries, started wars, even now support Israel on their actions with Palestine?! You are all just a bunch of couch and keyboard warriors.

buried

darkpagandeath wrote: »

So Russia does not have loads of them groups it's self ? Russia has loads of ultra nationalist groups. And i thought these guys were getting removed that's why they are creating a new government. They are a minority in the Ukrainian government. Russia had no problems with the guy they had in power, Ukrainians did though that's why they got rid of him. Stopping the EU deal was the last straw for them.

Well, sorry to be the one to inform you but they are not. Read up on some of the battalions currently involved in this conflict on the Ukrainian side - Nazi combat militia's such as the Azov Battalion. That militia was set up by a man named Oleg Lyashko, who also heads the Rad­i­cal Party. Even foreign Neo-Nazis are involved in the fighting in east Ukraine - http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28329329

And yes, there are radical far right parties in Russia, but I as a European citizen am more concerned about the far right, neo-nazi parties here in Europe, or in countries that want to be in Europe, backed by the CIA and quite frankly so should you.

darkpagandeath

buried wrote: »

Well, sorry to be the one to inform you but they are not. Read up on some of the battalions currently involved in this conflict on the Ukrainian side - Nazi combat militia's such as the Azov Battalion. That militia was set up by a man named Oleg Lyashko, who also heads the Rad­i­cal Party. Even foreign Neo-Nazis are involved in the fighting in east Ukraine - http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28329329

And yes, there are radical far right parties in Russia, but I as a European citizen am more concerned about the far right, neo-nazi parties here in Europe, or in countries that want to be in Europe, backed by the CIA and quite frankly so should you.

Man the barricades 300 Nazis Jesus, You were painting a picture of widespread Nazis. Number is insignificant compared to Pro Russian separatists coming over the boarder. If 300 Nazis are scaring Russia .... And only a handful are Foreign.

InTheTrees

jelenka wrote: »

What is it with this hate of Russia and everything to do with it? .

Well...

If you can explain how Putin manages to serve a term as prime minister followed by President followed by prime minister again and then president again it would help because theyre developing a reputation as a tin pot dictatorship because of it.

Next you'd have to explain the laws curtailing free speech in russia.

Right now you, and a group of russians, can travel to Washington DC where you can stand outside congress and burn US flags and trample on pictures of Obama and members of congress, while you chant praise of russia. We are all aware that similar protest against the authorities in Russia is not permitted so perhaps you could explain why that is?

Thats just the start.

buried

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Man the barricades 300 Nazis Jesus, You were painting a picture of widespread Nazis. Number is insignificant compared to Pro Russian separatists coming over the boarder. If 300 Nazis are scaring Russia .... And only a handful are Foreign.

Well, you did say there was none because 'they were removed', so at least I'm glad you can now see that they are there.

darkpagandeath

buried wrote: »

Well, you did say there was none because 'they were removed', so at least I'm glad you can now see that they are there.

No i said in Government, that's why they were changing the government. Your the one that linked a random news article to a group of 300 Nazis not even in the Ukrainian army, as far as i can see they are just there fighting against the Russian separatists. Trying to paint a picture of wide spread Nazi group taking over Ukraine. That's the kind of Tripe on RT.

buried

darkpagandeath wrote: »

No i said in Government, that's why they were changing the government. Your the one that linked a random news article to a group of 300 Nazis not even in the Ukrainian army, as far as i can see they are just there fighting against the Russian separatists. Trying to paint a picture of wide spread Nazi group taking over Ukraine.

Thats what started this whole conflict back earlier in the year, the far right seized control in Ukraine, that's what started this. And if they can seize power once through some sort of illegal revolt, then it stands to reason they can do it again, especially if the current Ukrainian government is supporting the far right parties by arming the far right militia's in the east. That's the point.

jelenka

InTheTrees wrote: »

Well...

If you can explain how Putin manages to serve a term as prime minister followed by President followed by prime minister again and then president again it would help because theyre developing a reputation as a tin pot dictatorship because of it.

Next you'd have to explain the laws curtailing free speech in russia.

Right now you, and a group of russians, can travel to Washington DC where you can stand outside congress and burn US flags and trample on pictures of Obama and members of congress, while you chant praise of russia. We are all aware that similar protest against the authorities in Russia is not permitted so perhaps you could explain why that is?

Thats just the start.

I do understand that they way he "corrected " the law allowing him to serve again and for a much longer period is not something Russian people are happy with either.
I also do agree to an extent that there is no free speech - any striking activity needs to be sanctioned by relevant authorities etc.
As for lgbt - thats part of the culture and religion, that is their right not to accept it, why don't you try to get Iraq or Libya or muslim countries to accept it? Would they? I don't think so, and they are within their rights not to.
Putin has done a lot of good for the country, people are happy to have him as president ( most of them)
Why don't you think of other countries and their leaders - they don't steal? There is no corruption? Everything is perfect? Are people happy with their government? No. Even Ireland - everyone is blaming government for everything, you have democracy but do you really? Do you have much choice in what goes on?

darkpagandeath

buried wrote: »

Thats what started this whole conflict back earlier in the year, the far right seized control in Ukraine, that's what started this. And if they can seize power once through some sort of illegal revolt, then it stands to reason they can do it again, especially if the current Ukrainian government is supporting the far right parties by arming the far right militia's in the east. That's the point.

Tripe, So your saying the whole thing was kicked off by Nazis groups. Not the Ukrainians wanting to get rid of a leader who wanted to put them back into Russia. Yes there were elements, But the government is dealing with that. Do you work for RT ?

buried

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Tripe, So your saying the whole thing was kicked off by Nazis groups. Not the Ukrainians wanting to get ride of a leader who wanted to put them back into Russia. Yes there were elements, But the government is dealing with that. Do you work for RT ?

Yes darkpagandeath, someone disagree's with you and "they work for RT". Congratulations, you are now in the CT zone yourself.

darkpagandeath

buried wrote: »

Yes darkpagandeath, someone disagree's with you and "they work for RT". Congratulations, you are now in the CT zone yourself.

But that's not disagreeing it's making things up. Nazi groups are not in charge in Ukraine.

InTheTrees

jelenka wrote: »

Putin has done a lot of good for the country, people are happy to have him as president ( most of them)
Why don't you think of other countries and their leaders - they don't steal? There is no corruption? Everything is perfect? Are people happy with their government? No. Even Ireland - everyone is blaming government for everything, you have democracy but do you really? Do you have much choice in what goes on?

There's no freedom of the press so how does anyone know that people are "happy to have him as president"?

Basically he controls the media that is telling you that people like him.

And what about this new law saying that any Social Media account with over 3000 followers has to register as a media outlet (and no doubt be subject to censorship)?

I'd have to register my twitter account. With who? The Ministry Of Truth? Crazy.

InTheTrees

jelenka wrote: »

Why don't you think of other countries and their leaders - they don't steal? There is no corruption? Everything is perfect? Are people happy with their government? No. Even Ireland - everyone is blaming government for everything, you have democracy but do you really? Do you have much choice in what goes on?

I'd like to see a list of Books critical of the US Government that have been banned.

Are there any?

You can go take a sh*t on the US constitution if you want, People wont like it but they'll defend your right to do it.

InTheTrees

jelenka wrote: »

As for lgbt - thats part of the culture and religion, that is their right not to accept it, why don't you try to get Iraq or Libya or muslim countries to accept it? Would they? I don't think so, and they are within their rights not to.

Discrimination is a disgrace whether the majority like it or not.

pablo128

jelenka wrote: »

As for lgbt - thats part of the culture and religion, that is their right not to accept it, why don't you try to get Iraq or Libya or muslim countries to accept it? Would they? I don't think so, and they are within their rights not to.

People don't choose to be gay or lesbian - they are born that way. And you are saying that it's ok for Russian people not to accept it? How would you feel if a member of your family was gay or lesbian, and living in Russia. Would you be happy for them, or would you be worried about them possibly getting beaten up or worse through no fault of their own?

InTheTrees

Without a free media its impossible to say exactly what russians approve or disapprove of isnt it?

jelenka

InTheTrees wrote: »

Discrimination is a disgrace whether the majority like it or not.

Yes, but isn't it democratic to let them have their own opinion on this? Or do they HAVE to accept it?

jelenka

InTheTrees wrote: »

Without a free media its impossible to say exactly what russians approve or disapprove of isnt it?

My family is over in Russia, I base my opinion on what I am being told by them and seeing the way they live. They are happy with Putin and his actions on the current situation ( not happy on the way he was elected and some other things, but in general)