Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

Piliger

InTheTrees wrote: »

There's no freedom of the press so how does anyone know that people are "happy to have him as president"?

No freedom of the press, no freedom of expression, no freedom of action, no freedom to disagree, no freedom to oppose. No freedom - period. And now an army of putinistas paid to pollute the web with Putin's personal agenda and narrative. And eve they cannot even manage to do that well.

Basically he controls the media that is telling you that people like him.

Exactly. People have no knowledge on which to base their decision as to whether they agree or not with him.

And what about this new law saying that any Social Media account with over 3000 followers has to register as a media outlet (and no doubt be subject to censorship)?

Exactly. Another way that his regime has developed to control dissent and control what information Russian people get about life, about Russian people, about history, about the world, about everything.

And while saying that it is also clear that the Russian people are well aware of how they are being turned into pets and slaves. Yet they do nothing. It makes us even more admiring of the people of central Europe and of northern Africa who rose up and threw off the dictatorships that controlled their lives and of our own Irish grandparents who fought that we in Ireland have the gift of freedom. The really pitiful thing about Russia is how the Russian people are so passive, so willing to hand over the very freedoms that our own parents and grandparents sacrificed so much to give us. We have a lot to feel proud of.

KahBoom

Piliger wrote: »

No freedom of the press, no freedom of expression, no freedom of action, no freedom to disagree, no freedom to oppose. No freedom - period. And now an army of putinistas paid to pollute the web with Putin's personal agenda and narrative. And eve they cannot even manage to do that well.

Your and others fanatical obsession, with demonizing and trying to justify a war with Russia, and using flimsy arguments to try and paint the Russian people as negligent and deserving of what they get, gives you much more of an appearance of being a paid shill and propagandist.

To be honest, the piss poor quality of your arguments right across Boards, used to push a variety of views, makes you look more like a shill than most other candidates I've seen, outside of economic and Israel vs Palestine topics - you don't seem to give a toss about logical consistency of your arguments, only in trying to paint a narrative to (in this case) suit your pro-war/pro-US/anti-Russian agenda (where you don't give a toss that the US are heinously more guilty of just about everything you criticize Russia for).


So the idiotic 'paid shills' crap you and others spout, can be turned back on you fairly easily - the farcical hysteria in yours and others arguments, can pretty easily make you look like a shill, just on its own - it certainly makes it look like you don't believe half of the crap you spout (Putin=Hitler nonsense :rolleyes:), which again is enough to make you look like a shill.

darkpagandeath

KahBoom wrote: »

Your and others fanatical obsession, with demonizing and trying to justify a war with Russia, and using flimsy arguments to try and paint the Russian people as negligent and deserving of what they get, gives you much more of an appearance of being a paid shill and propagandist.

To be honest, the piss poor quality of your arguments right across Boards, used to push a variety of views, makes you look more like a shill than most other candidates I've seen, outside of economic and Israel vs Palestine topics - you don't seem to give a toss about logical consistency of your arguments, only in trying to paint a narrative to (in this case) suit your pro-war/pro-US/anti-Russian agenda (where you don't give a toss that the US are heinously more guilty of just about everything you criticize Russia for).


So the idiotic 'paid shills' crap you and others spout, can be turned back on you fairly easily - the farcical hysteria in yours and others arguments, can pretty easily make you look like a shill, just on its own - it certainly makes it look like you don't believe half of the crap you spout (Putin=Hitler nonsense :rolleyes:), which again is enough to make you look like a shill.

You would have to ignore the fact that most of the world feels the same about that. The whole world is shills ?

KahBoom

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You would have to ignore the fact that most of the world feels the same about that. The whole world is shills ?

Ha - only angry war-hungry folk on the Internet think that; ask some people in the real world what they think.

Saying that is like saying the Daily Mail is an accurate representation of societies views.

darkpagandeath

KahBoom wrote: »

Ha - only angry war-hungry folk on the Internet think that; ask some people in the real world what they think.

Saying that is like saying the Daily Mail is an accurate representation of societies views.

Well you have no problem spouting about Russians fine with this and that. Do you have a link to the survey you have conducted to gauge public opinion in Russia ? Or are you going on experience just like the rest of us ?

KahBoom

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Well you have no problem spouting about Russians fine with this and that. Do you have a link to the survey you have conducted to gauge public opinion in Russia ? Or are you going on experience just like the rest of us ?

You made the original claim - you go find the survey to back that 'most' people think that.

I've never said the Russian's are fine with anything - I avoid making claims I can't back, unlike most posters making sweeping claims about what Russians, Ukrainian's or the whole world think.

darkpagandeath

KahBoom wrote: »

You made the original claim - you go find the survey to back that 'most' people think that.

I've never said the Russian's are fine with anything - I avoid making claims I can't back, unlike most posters making sweeping claims about what Russians, Ukrainian's or the whole world think.

OK i will retract my "whole world" and say most governments is that better ?

KahBoom

darkpagandeath wrote: »

OK i will retract my "whole world" and say most governments is that better ?

Most governments think Putin=Hitler? I don't think that's going to be any easier to back up.

Piliger

KahBoom wrote: »

Your and others fanatical obsession, with demonizing and trying to justify a war with Russia, and using flimsy arguments to try and paint the Russian people as negligent and deserving of what they get, gives you much more of an appearance of being a paid shill and propagandist.

To be honest, the piss poor quality of your arguments right across Boards, used to push a variety of views, makes you look more like a shill than most other candidates I've seen, outside of economic and Israel vs Palestine topics - you don't seem to give a toss about logical consistency of your arguments, only in trying to paint a narrative to (in this case) suit your pro-war/pro-US/anti-Russian agenda (where you don't give a toss that the US are heinously more guilty of just about everything you criticize Russia for).

So the idiotic 'paid shills' crap you and others spout, can be turned back on you fairly easily - the farcical hysteria in yours and others arguments, can pretty easily make you look like a shill, just on its own - it certainly makes it look like you don't believe half of the crap you spout (Putin=Hitler nonsense :rolleyes:), which again is enough to make you look like a shill.

As I thought. All bluster and disingenuous nonsense mixed with faux outrage.

Your precious Russia is the one starting the war against a country doing nothing but trying to live in freedom and peace, something you conveniently overlook, and your arguments to try to excuse Putin's proto Hitler behaviour is comical and transparent.

The US has a long and proud history of opposing evil around the world and promoting freedom everywhere, despite it's occasional mistaken efforts. This stands in mark in stark contrast to Russia's 100% consistent efforts over the last 100 years to enslave and murder people inside and outside it's territory, expand it's territories by conquest and support and promote terrorism in democratic countries.

KahBoom

Piliger wrote: »

As I thought. All bluster and disingenuous nonsense mixed with faux outrage.

Your precious Russia is the one starting the war against a country doing nothing but trying to live in freedom and peace, something you conveniently overlook, and your arguments to try to excuse Putin's proto Hitler behaviour is comical and transparent.

Moving on to directly lying about what my arguments are now are we? "If you don't support sanctions and/or war against Russia, you're a fascist-defender!" "with us or against us" bullshít.

That you are very obviously deliberately lying in your misrepresentation, further backs the case that you are more liable to be a shill than any other poster in the thread, despite your constant protestations that other posters are Russian shills.

Piliger wrote: »

The US has a long and proud history of opposing evil around the world and promoting freedom everywhere, despite it's occasional mistaken efforts. This stands in mark in stark contrast to Russia's 100% consistent efforts over the last 100 years to enslave and murder people inside and outside it's territory, expand it's territories by conquest and support and promote terrorism in democratic countries.

Finally there we go - your true colours out; the US is the most warmongering nation on the planet, having engaged in an illegal war of aggression in Iraq that resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths (a lot like how the Nazi's engaged in an illegal war of aggression - so by your standards people should go to war with the US for that), and just supported the racist (and since you like the use of hyperbole - 'terrorist') state of Israel, in bombing the crap out of civilians in Gaza.

The 'occasional mistaken efforts' include supporting this full list of autocratic/fascist states:

Latin America
Porfirio Díaz (Mexico) (1876–1911)
Institutional Revolutionary Party (Mexico) (1929–2000)
Juan Vicente Gómez (Venezuela) (1908–35)
Manuel Estrada Cabrera (Guatemala) (1898–1920)
Jorge Ubico (Guatemala) (1931–44)
Fulgencio Batista (Cuba) (1952–59)
Rafael Trujillo (Dominican Republic) (1930–61)
Efraín Ríos Montt and the rest of the military junta in Guatemala (1954-86)
Revolutionary Government Junta of El Salvador (1979–82)
Hugo Banzer (Bolivia) (1971–78, 1997–2001)
National Reorganization Process (Argentina) (1976–83)
Brazilian military government (1964–85)
Somoza family (Nicaragua) (1936–79)
François Duvalier (Haiti) (1957–71)
Jean-Claude Duvalier (Haiti) (1971–86)
Omar Torrijos (Panama) (1968–81)
Manuel Noriega (Panama) (1983–89)
Alfredo Stroessner (Paraguay) (1954–89)
Augusto Pinochet (Chile) (1973–90)

Asia
Syngman Rhee (South Korea) (1948–60)
Park Chung-hee (South Korea) (1961–79)
Chun Doo-Hwan (South Korea) (1979-88)
Ngo Dinh Diem (South Vietnam) (1955–63)
Lon Nol (Cambodia) (1970–75)
Yahya Khan (Pakistan) (1971)
Mohammad Reza Pahlavi (Iran) (1941–79)
Ferdinand Marcos (Philippines) (1965–86)
Saddam Hussein (Iraq) (1982–90)
Suharto (Indonesia) (1967–98)
Truong Tan Sang (Vietnam) (2011–present)
Islam Karimov (Uzbekistan) (1990–present)
Pervez Musharraf (Pakistan) (1999–2008)
Emomalii Rahmon (Tajikistan) (1994–present)
Gurbanguly Berdimuhamedow (Turkmenistan) (2006–present)
House of Saud (Saudi Arabia) (1945–present)

Africa
King Hassan II, predecesors and successors (Morocco) (1777-present)
Apartheid South Africa (1948–94)
Meles Zenawi (Ethiopia) (1991–2012)
Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo (Equatorial Guinea) (1979–present)
Mobutu Sese Seko (Democratic Republic of the Congo) (1965–97)
Hissène Habré (Chad) (1982–90)
Hosni Mubarak (Egypt) (1981-2011)
Idriss Déby (Chad) (1990–present)
Yoweri Museveni (Uganda) (1986–present)

Europe
Greek military junta of 1967–74
Franjo Tuđman (Croatia) (1990–99)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_of_authoritarian_regimes

It's their full-on foreign policy going back more than half a century, to uphold dictatorships where it suits their interests.
When the US does something completely illegal and treated as a war of aggression, it's an 'occasional mistake', when Russia is only alleged to have done something, on a far lesser scale, suddenly 'Putin=Hitler'.

By your own standards (not mine), you should be dismissed as a paid US government shill, as you've just displayed a staggeringly greater amount of black/white thinking, bias and soapboxing - suited to a pro-US agenda - than any other poster in the entire thread.

InTheTrees

KahBoom wrote: »

It's their full-on foreign policy going back more than half a century, to uphold dictatorships where it suits their interests.

What nonsense. So you're saying russia and the old soviet union has never ever supported a regime where it suited their own interests?

Seriously??

Russia has never supported a dictatorship when it suits their interests?



And not only that but russia And the cccp has even had its own dictators never mind supporting them in other countries.

We havent even started on Stalin (the georgian) yet have we? But seeing as you're getting into historical lists then maybe we should look at old Uncle Joe's record on human rights should we? How many russians did he murder? Millions wasnt it? Five? Six million?

Funny guy...

:pac:

InTheTrees

KahBoom wrote: »

When the US does something completely illegal and treated as a war of aggression, it's an 'occasional mistake', when Russia is only alleged to have done something, on a far lesser scale, suddenly 'Putin=Hitler'.

Have you heard of the "Ukrainian Genocide"?

A soviet engineered famine that killed between 2 and 5 millions ukrainians in the 1930's.

And you wonder why Ukraine doesnt want anything to do with russia?

"As of April 2008, the parliament of Ukraine and the governments of 19 countries have recognized the Holodomor as an act of genocide."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Genocide

Oh but please show us more lists about how the US supported the mexicans...

sparksfly

KahBoom wrote: »

Moving on to directly lying about what my arguments are now are we? "If you don't support sanctions and/or war against Russia, you're a fascist-defender!" "with us or against us" bullshít.

That you are very obviously deliberately lying in your misrepresentation, further backs the case that you are more liable to be a shill than any other poster in the thread, despite your constant protestations that other posters are Russian shills.


Finally there we go - your true colours out; the US is the most warmongering nation on the planet, having engaged in an illegal war of aggression in Iraq that resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths (a lot like how the Nazi's engaged in an illegal war of aggression - so by your standards people should go to war with the US for that), and just supported the racist (and since you like the use of hyperbole - 'terrorist') state of Israel, in bombing the crap out of civilians in Gaza.

The 'occasional mistaken efforts' include supporting this full list of autocratic/fascist states:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_of_authoritarian_regimes

It's their full-on foreign policy going back more than half a century, to uphold dictatorships where it suits their interests.
When the US does something completely illegal and treated as a war of aggression, it's an 'occasional mistake', when Russia is only alleged to have done something, on a far lesser scale, suddenly 'Putin=Hitler'.

By your own standards (not mine), you should be dismissed as a paid US government shill, as you've just displayed a staggeringly greater amount of black/white thinking, bias and soapboxing - suited to a pro-US agenda - than any other poster in the entire thread.

Yes the evidence is clearly and readily available, the US is without doubt the greatest terrorist state on the globe. Russia, or any other large could or will never match it for sheer brazen interference and destabilizing of so many areas of this planet.

Elmer Blooker

Any of the "Putin did it" brigade out there have any opinions why MH17 has completely disappeared off the news headlines? (except RT)
Is it because sanctions are now in place and it doesn't have to be exploited for propaganda in the ruthless, distasteful and merciless way it was by the US?
Why did the US block a cease fire at the crash site yesterday? It seems it is no longer a conspiracy theory that the plane was shot down by the Ukrainian Interior ministry who Kiev have no control over.
http://rt.com/news/178948-russia-block-ceasefire-ukraine/

Markcheese

Jaysus, no spin at all at all on the above then....

Piliger

sparksfly wrote: »

Yes the evidence is clearly and readily available, the US is without doubt the greatest terrorist state on the globe. Russia, or any other large could or will never match it for sheer brazen interference and destabilizing of so many areas of this planet.

So comical and so transparent.

KahBoom

EDIT: *snip* - actually, point made, so not worth bothering replying to any more.

darkpagandeath

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Any of the "Putin did it" brigade out there have any opinions why MH17 has completely disappeared off the news headlines? (except RT)
Is it because sanctions are now in place and it doesn't have to be exploited for propaganda in the ruthless, distasteful and merciless way it was by the US?
Why did the US block a cease fire at the crash site yesterday? It seems it is no longer a conspiracy theory that the plane was shot down by the Ukrainian Interior ministry who Kiev have no control over.
http://rt.com/news/178948-russia-block-ceasefire-ukraine/

Who controls RT again ?

Elmer Blooker

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Who controls RT again ?

I asked why has MH17 completely disappeared off the news headlines? Any opinions?
Why did the US block attempts at a cease fire at the crash site yesterday?
Any opinion?

darkpagandeath

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I asked why has MH17 completely disappeared off the news headlines? Any opinions?
Why did the US block attempts at a cease fire at the crash site yesterday?
Any opinion?

Link, I don't view RT news.

Edit

And on the lack of reporting, I assume Gaza. And the report originally went on for days with little going on. same stuff over and over again. So until black box recordings or any new items are released the story has died down. You cant report whats not there, Unlike RT.

Piliger

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Any of the "Putin did it" brigade out there have any opinions why MH17 has completely disappeared off the news headlines? (except RT)
Is it because sanctions are now in place and it doesn't have to be exploited for propaganda in the ruthless, distasteful and merciless way it was by the US?
Why did the US block a cease fire at the crash site yesterday? It seems it is no longer a conspiracy theory that the plane was shot down by the Ukrainian Interior ministry who Kiev have no control over.
http://rt.com/news/178948-russia-block-ceasefire-ukraine/

Putin blocked the ceasefire personally. In Russia Putin gets to decide the headlines, in the West we have independent media.

Putin is still blocking the investigation, after sending in his special forces to fire missiles at a civilian air liner, slaughtering more than 250 people to satisfy his own blood lust, and then abused the bodies and the families of the victims.

What a sickening and appalling regime you call your own.

Piliger

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I asked why has MH17 completely disappeared off the news headlines? Any opinions?
Why did the US block attempts at a cease fire at the crash site yesterday?
Any opinion?

Putin blocked the ceasefire personally. Ask your boss why his media is still denying his slaughter of more than 250 innocent men women and children ?

smurfjed

after sending in his special forces to fire missiles at a civilian air liner, slaughtering more than 250 people to satisfy his own blood lust, and then abused the bodies and the families of the victims.

Oh come on, after 174 pages of discussion, is that now your personal conclusion?

Piliger

smurfjed wrote: »

Oh come on, after 174 pages of discussion, is that now your personal conclusion?

Everyone and his loyal dog knows it. Nothing you say or do is going to change that.

Peist2007

jelenka wrote: »

Yes, but isn't it democratic to let them have their own opinion on this? Or do they HAVE to accept it?

No. Freedom of sexual orientation is a core human right and one which cannot be democratically elected out of. The Russian stance on gay rights is completely wrong. It still doesnt mean they definitely shot the plane out of the sky though

Piliger

Peist2007 wrote: »

No. Freedom of sexual orientation is a core human right and one which cannot be democratically elected out of. The Russian stance on gay rights is completely wrong. It still doesnt mean they definitely shot the plane out of the sky though

No. Except they did.

Peist2007

Piliger wrote: »

No. Except they did.

Ah, so they have produced their evidence have they? Or are you just giving your opinion (again)?

darkpagandeath

Peist2007 wrote: »

Ah, so they have produced their evidence have they? Or are you just giving your opinion (again)?

Again I'm guessing they are collating all the evidence together, So they can release it all in one go. Will be a lot harder to deny then.

With cockpit voice recorder registering an explosion, Other black boxes registering explosive decompression. Then satellite photos for a BUK in Separatists area, Another of it missing missiles and scorched grass. Then more of it being hastily moved from the area and so on so forth.

Think that's what they are waiting for.

Piliger

Peist2007 wrote: »

Ah, so they have produced their evidence have they? Or are you just giving your opinion (again)?

Overwhelming evidence.

smurfjed

With cockpit voice recorder registering an explosion, Other black boxes registering explosive decompression. Then satellite photos for a BUK in Separatists area, Another of it missing missiles and scorched grass. Then more of it being hastily moved from the area and so on so forth.

The first part will be known findings from the Dutch accident investigation. They might also be able to say what type of missile due to the fragments and explosive residue. BUT THEY WILL NOT reveal the WHO! That would be outside the scope of an accident investigation.