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Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

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    #2612
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    smurfjed wrote: »
    The first part will be known findings from the Dutch accident investigation. They might also be able to say what type of missile due to the fragments and explosive residue. BUT THEY WILL NOT reveal the WHO! That would be outside the scope of an accident investigation.

    That's not taking into the fact the West maybe waiting for all the investigation to be done to respect the family's. Then release all the findings they have satellite and so on. The slower the west is in collecting and presenting the information the harder it will be to deny. As to those on the outside it will appear they have cross checked fact checked and all that.


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    #2613
    Piliger
    Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    smurfjed wrote: »
    The first part will be known findings from the Dutch accident investigation. They might also be able to say what type of missile due to the fragments and explosive residue. BUT THEY WILL NOT reveal the WHO! That would be outside the scope of an accident investigation.
    Of course it is. And it's not meant to be. The evidence that the Russian forces brought down the plane and slaughtered the passengers has been establish to the satisfaction of all of the world. That issue is now history and we are moving on to how to deal with it and how to demonstrate to Putin that we are not going to let him away with it. No one cares about the discussion any more except for the Putinistas who are just dribbling on and on and on.


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    #2614
    Peist2007
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,257 ✭✭✭Peist2007


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Again I'm guessing they are collating all the evidence together, So they can release it all in one go. Will be a lot harder to deny then.

    With cockpit voice recorder registering an explosion, Other black boxes registering explosive decompression. Then satellite photos for a BUK in Separatists area, Another of it missing missiles and scorched grass. Then more of it being hastily moved from the area and so on so forth.

    Think that's what they are waiting for.

    So why not wait on the accusations/sanctions etc until that evidence is produced?


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    #2615
    smurfjed
    Registered Users Posts: 10,165 ✭✭✭✭smurfjed


    Of course it is
    Then please show me a link to the appropriate ICAO annex that states how they must establish WHO DID IT.


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    #2616
    Peist2007
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,257 ✭✭✭Peist2007


    Piliger wrote: »
    in the West we have independent media.

    Naive little puppy


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    #2617
    InTheTrees
    Registered Users Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    Peist2007 wrote: »
    So why not wait on the accusations/sanctions etc until that evidence is produced?

    Sanctions are for putin invading crimea.


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    #2618
    InTheTrees
    Registered Users Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    Peist2007 wrote: »
    So why not wait on the accusations/sanctions etc until that evidence is produced?

    Why shouldnt we speculate?

    Putin has a long history of screwing with his neighbours.

    He's invaded Chechnya, Georgia and now Ukraine.

    No wonder all his ex-allies want to join NATO.


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    #2619
    Peist2007
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,257 ✭✭✭Peist2007


    InTheTrees wrote: »
    Why shouldnt we speculate?

    Putin has a long history of screwing with his neighbours.

    He's invaded Chechnya, Georgia and now Ukraine.

    No wonder all his ex-allies want to join NATO.

    I never mentioned speculation. Sure we can talk about this in any way we want. I'm talking about Yatsenyuk calling the russians "bastards" on tv the night it happened. I'm talking about John Kerry saying the Americans know its the Russians are behind it and have evidence that shows it. Then, nothing. No evidence produced 2 weeks on. See any issues with that?

    As for sanctions, it would be churlish to deny that the accusations levelled against the Russians after the plane went down was not part of the pretext to sanctions a matter of days later. The invasion of Crimea may well also be a reason but the downed plane is part of it as well. Despite the investigation not yet concluded. And none of Kerry's aforementioned evidence being produced or, indeed, mentioned at all. Stinks.


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    #2620
    InTheTrees
    Registered Users Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    Peist2007 wrote: »
    I'm talking about John Kerry saying the Americans know its the Russians are behind it and have evidence that shows it. Then, nothing. No evidence produced 2 weeks on. See any issues with that?

    Hmm. No. Really?

    The crash investigation could take many many months, and at the end presumably the evidence will be produced in front of the UN.

    Its going to be more than 2 weeks.

    I doubt putin will accept any of it though. It'll be discounted as an evil western plot.


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    #2621
    Peist2007
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,257 ✭✭✭Peist2007


    InTheTrees wrote: »
    Hmm. No. Really?

    The crash investigation could take many many months, and at the end presumably the evidence will be produced in front of the UN.

    Its going to be more than 2 weeks.

    I doubt putin will accept any of it though. It'll be discounted as an evil western plot.

    But why say anything before the investigation concludes? Wouldnt that be easier for all concerned? And less volatile? I'm talking about what is being done in the name of the west. We really are no better than Putin.


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    #2622
    InTheTrees
    Registered Users Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    Peist2007 wrote: »
    We really are no better than Putin.

    Thats stupid. Putin has scraped free speech in russia, he imprisons his political enemies. He's killed over 200,000 people in anohter neightbour Chechnya and he's also invaded Georgia.

    And now Putin gets paranoid about western investment in another country and invades Ukraine.

    How exactly does that make us no better?

    Why should Ukraine have western investment? Seriosuly. Can you answer that?

    Can you explain why Ukraine has to forgo western investment because their paranoid neighbour woudnt like it??


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    #2623
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Peist2007 wrote: »
    But why say anything before the investigation concludes? Wouldnt that be easier for all concerned? And less volatile? I'm talking about what is being done in the name of the west. We really are no better than Putin.

    To make sure people don't think they are off the hook for their actions, Its not the 1950s now, news travels instantly. The west wants to let those involved in the downing of the plane they have their number.


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    #2624
    Peist2007
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,257 ✭✭✭Peist2007


    InTheTrees wrote: »
    Thats stupid. Putin has scraped free speech in russia, he imprisons his political enemies. He's killed over 200,000 people in anohter neightbour Chechnya and he's also invaded Georgia.

    And now Putin gets paranoid about western investment in another country and invades Ukraine.

    How exactly does that make us no better?

    Why should Ukraine have western investment? Seriosuly. Can you answer that?

    Can you explain why Ukraine has to forgo western investment because their paranoid neighbour woudnt like it??

    I think the figures slaughtered in the name of western countries far outweighs anything Putin has done. Iraq? Afghanistan? Syria? How many Iraqis have died since we went in to liberate them?

    We are no better. But i am arguing against those that believe we arent fed a whole other agenda to the Russia Today viewers.


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    #2625
    Peist2007
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,257 ✭✭✭Peist2007


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    To make sure people don't think they are off the hook for their actions, Its not the 1950s now, news travels instantly. The west wants to let those involved in the downing of the plane they have their number.

    Well i hope the satisfaction in letting them know their number is had doesnt get spoiled for you by the inevitable slaughter that tactic allows. Childish dick-measuring behaviour and one which holds little in the way of consequences for the US. Europe will bear the cost of it.


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    #2626
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Peist2007 wrote: »
    Well i hope the satisfaction in letting them know their number is had doesnt get spoiled for you by the inevitable slaughter that tactic allows. Childish dick-measuring behaviour and one which holds little in the way of consequences for the US. Europe will bear the cost of it.

    What consequences ? Are the Separatists going to declare war on NATO/Usa ? And I will have a good laugh if you think Russia will declare war on the west.


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    #2627
    InTheTrees
    Registered Users Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    Peist2007 wrote: »
    I think the figures slaughtered in the name of western countries far outweighs anything Putin has done. Iraq? Afghanistan? Syria? How many Iraqis have died since we went in to liberate them?

    Huh?

    The truth is that russia has invaded three of its neighbours. Chechnya, Georgia and now Ukraine.

    That should explain a little why Ukraine wants to be in the EU and a member of NATO.

    I dont get why thats so hard to understand.


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    #2628
    InTheTrees
    Registered Users Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    Peist2007 wrote: »
    I think the figures slaughtered in the name of western countries far outweighs anything Putin has done. Iraq? Afghanistan? Syria? How many Iraqis have died since we went in to liberate them?

    We are no better. But i am arguing against those that believe we arent fed a whole other agenda to the Russia Today viewers.

    But why shouldnt Ukraine join NATO?


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    #2629
    Piliger
    Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    Peist2007 wrote: »
    Naive little puppy
    We don't expect any more from someone who has no idea what freedom is. It's really quite sad for you.


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    #2630
    Piliger
    Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    Peist2007 wrote: »
    So why not wait on the accusations/sanctions etc until that evidence is produced?

    Because we have all the evidence we need. That's why the world is convinced and not waiting for anything more. The fact has been established. End of story and start of a new cold war. Russia can now look forward to a glorious decade of being ostracised, hated , ignored and isolated. Bon Voyage.


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    #2631
    Elmer Blooker
    Registered Users Posts: 6,125 ✭✭✭Elmer Blooker


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    The west wants to let those involved in the downing of the plane they have their number.
    They don't. There is absolutely no evidence that the pro Russian separatists shot down the plane - none whatsoever (even Obama admitted that), there is however mounting evidence that the US installed Kiev Gov't is guilty.
    http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/08/evidence-now-conclusive-2-ukrainian-government-su-25-fighter-jets-shoot-malaysian-airliner-buk-missile-ground-shot-involved.html
    “There have been two or three pieces of fuselage that have been really pockmarked with what almost looks like machine-gun fire, very very strong machine-gun fire.”


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    #2632
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Elmer Blooker wrote: »
    They don't. There is absolutely no evidence that the pro Russian separatists shot down the plane - none whatsoever (even Obama admitted that), there is however mounting evidence that the US installed Kiev Gov't is guilty.
    http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/08/evidence-now-conclusive-2-ukrainian-government-su-25-fighter-jets-shoot-malaysian-airliner-buk-missile-ground-shot-involved.html

    You do know how high 32,000 feet is right ? Machinegun fire will be from when it's on the ground. It's an excellent game now of "hey guys on the ground" with machine guns shot down a passenger plane. Wonder why this never happens in Afghanistan or other places. Oh wait 32,000 feet is slightly out of range of a machine gun. Next option a fighter jet, Well unfortunately only since the early to mid days of ww2 did fighter plans use machineguns. Cannons all the way now. Su-25 is a ground support/attack plane not a high altitude fighter, At least if the CT guys are going to lay blame on a plane get at least a plausible one. SU-25 fires 30 mm cannons with either depleted uranium or explosive round. Even just empty that planes celling is 22,000 odd feet.


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    #2633
    KahBoom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭KahBoom


    If people claim there is conclusive evidence, then present links to back your point - none have held up to scrutiny thus far.

    It's clear at this stage, that many posters are soapboxing (making it far more reasonable to suspect them of shilling than other posters in the thread), to assert as true Russia's involvement in shooting down the plane, without any evidence - even though we've been over this several times now, that there is no actual evidence.


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    #2634
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    KahBoom wrote: »
    If people claim there is conclusive evidence, then present links to back your point - none have held up to scrutiny thus far.

    It's clear at this stage, that many posters are soapboxing (making it far more reasonable to suspect them of shilling than other posters in the thread), to assert as true Russia's involvement in shooting down the plane, without any evidence - even though we've been over this several times now, that there is no actual evidence.

    What evidence has been debunked and by whom ? links to this.


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    #2635
    Piliger
    Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    What the Putinistas don't seem to get is that this issue is over ... long long ago. We know what happened. Europe, the US and the rest of the world doesn't care what these Putinistas keep arguing about and their evidence BS. The case is decided. The case is closed. Putin slaughtered those people, abused their bodies and families. End.


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    #2636
    Elmer Blooker
    Registered Users Posts: 6,125 ✭✭✭Elmer Blooker


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    You do know how high 32,000 feet is right ? Machinegun fire will be from when it's on the ground. It's an excellent game now of "hey guys on the ground" with machine guns shot down a passenger plane. Wonder why this never happens in Afghanistan or other places. Oh wait 32,000 feet is slightly out of range of a machine gun. Next option a fighter jet, Well unfortunately only since the early to mid days of ww2 did fighter plans use machineguns. Cannons all the way now. Su-25 is a ground support/attack plane not a high altitude fighter, At least if the CT guys are going to lay blame on a plane get at least a plausible one. SU-25 fires 30 mm cannons with either depleted uranium or explosive round. Even just empty that planes celling is 22,000 odd feet.
    How do you know Flight MH17 was flying at 32,000 feet when Kiev ATC refuses to release any details?


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    #2637
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Elmer Blooker wrote: »
    How do you know Flight MH17 was flying at 32,000 feet when Kiev ATC refuses to release any details?

    wow just wow.....


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    #2638
    loughside
    Registered Users Posts: 497 ✭✭loughside


    Elmer Blooker wrote: »
    How do you know Flight MH17 was flying at 32,000 feet when Kiev ATC refuses to release any details?

    It`s late on saturday night and the vodka is flowing in kremlinland,

    time to step away from the keyboard komrad


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    #2639
    Elmer Blooker
    Registered Users Posts: 6,125 ✭✭✭Elmer Blooker


    loughside wrote: »
    It`s late on saturday night and the vodka is flowing in kremlinland,

    time to step away from the keyboard komrad
    I'm immune to these immature childish responses by now, in fact I take it as a compliment to be insulted by the likes of you and Piliger too.
    wow just wow.....
    thanks for that answer to my question.


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    #2640
    deco nate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,340 ✭✭✭deco nate


    Elmer Blooker wrote: »
    How do you know Flight MH17 was flying at 32,000 feet when Kiev ATC refuses to release any details?

    Have you not heard of a free app call flight radar?
    You can see in real time flights all over the world, or was that faked? DOH!!
    Next...

    Also the flight path and height of the plane was posted here before, yet some posters want to drag this thread around in circles, read before posting bs like..... And we're is this info.....!


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    #2641
    KahBoom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭KahBoom


    It's really childish that all posters can come up with, when asked to provide some evidence of Russian involvement, is some variation of "prove they didn't".

    The burden of proof is on the posters making the claim, to go find links to back that up.

    If it's so obvious the Russian's are responsible, should be piss easy for one of you to provide a link to back it up.

    Stop trying to drag this out endlessly again - like happened last time proof was demanded from people: Either provide your proof of Russian involvement, or retract the claim that it is proven.


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