Malaysian airline MH-17 discussion thread

miss tickle

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Already a thread about this, what has Gaza got to do with a passenger plane being shot down over Ukraine ?

It was in reply to a question on sanctions against Russia.

miss tickle

Grayson wrote: »

Lots of people have called for both sanctions and boycotts of Israeli goods. I remember people calling for them when the US invaded Iraq. In "the great war for civilisation" Robert Fisk tracked down the manufacturers of a hellfire missile that was used to blow up a crowded ambulance in Lebanon (Amazing book btw. I'd highly recommend it for anyone interested in middle eastern politics. It covers nearly every middle eastern conflict since the 50's).

Just because one situation was ignored does not mean another should be. Surely it's better to do something 33% of the time rather than 0% of the time

Thanks for the tip, I must read it. I understand what you are saying but I just find it extremely mealy-mouthed for Obama to be screaming for sanctions on Russia (which have no negative effect on the US economy) while supplying weapons to Israel.

loughside

The Misadventures of `Empty-truck Putin`

What was supposed to be a PR bonanza is ending up as another black eye for Vladimir Putin, the heralded chess master of world politics. Did he really expect the world community to force Ukraine to allow in Russia’s gift of humanitarian assistance, no questions asked?
Did he really think that Ukraine would allow his convoy to proceed into a war zone as cameras recorded the celebratory reception by starving and suffering civilians?
Did Putin really not understand that national leaders look askance at attempts to cross national borders without permission? That is the International Politics 101 lecture that Putin failed to attend.
An official government website, Russia Behind the News, heralded the impending delivery to beleaguered Donbassians of “some 2,000 tonnes of humanitarian supplies” in 280 KamAz trucks, including “400 tonnes of cereal, 100 tonnes of sugar, 62 tonnes of baby food, 54 tonnes of medical equipment and medication, 12,000 sleeping bags, and 69 portable power generators.”
What good news, but how were these supplies to get across the border, much less into an active war zone?
As would be expected, negotiations among Russia, Ukraine, and the International Committee of the Red Cross failed on August 14, after international leaders called in protest.
Putin could not afford a direct confrontation so he blinked. The white-painted KamAz-truck convoy ended up parked near the Ukrainian border awaiting inspection, as some hundred curious reporters swarmed the scene, taking pictures as they urged drivers to display the contents of the trucks.
To the shock of the reporters, trucks contained a few bags of flour, a large bundle of bottled water, and other miscellaneous items – far from the cornucopia promised by Russian propaganda.
In his video report, a BBC reporter reacted to what he had seen: “What strikes me most about these lorries is that they are almost empty.” When asked about another truck that remained unopened, the BBC reporter was told its manifest stated it contained eight tons of buckwheat flour – two tons in excess of the KAMaz’s maximum load. So we have near empty trucks alongside those carrying more than their allowable weight.
The “almost empty” narrative (see also reporter Courtney Weaver’s photos) has turned Putin’s humanitarian gesture into a running joke. One writer has dubbed the convoy the “Trojan Mules.” A social media commentator quips that the trucks are half empty so that they can pick up Polish vegetables and apples on the way back.
Another asks why Russia would send 100 trucks that are two percent full instead of five that are 100 percent full? According to my calculation, that would have saved Russia 50,000 gallons of diesel fuel.
The “almost empty” convoy has conspiracy theorists looking for a rational explanation. One making the rounds is that Russia needs a large number of trucks to extract their mercenary forces from Ukraine, spelling the end or lessening of the guerilla war sponsored by Russia, at least for the time being.
A second story is that the 280 transport vehicles would give pro-Russian forces a logistical boost. Sources with extensive military experience, however, tell me that such trucks would not prove of much value on the Donbass war front.
I’ll go with the simplest explanation: Putin wanted to make a big PR splash for his August 14 speech in Crimea – a speech so lackluster that the full transcript has not been published on Putin’s web site. (Kremlinologists: figure that one out). He planned to present himself to Crimea and the world as the humanitarian, peace-loving Putin. The world listened, heard his usual pleas for peace, and world stock markets fell. They have heard this story too many times.
Even more humiliating is that Ukrainian aid has already arrived with more to follow. To make matters worse, reporters, whiling away their time on the unguarded border, are reporting armored personnel carriers loaded with Russian troops (with Russian insignia no less) whizzing unhindered across the border. Russia’s protests that reporters should not “believe their lying eyes” seem to be falling on empty ears.
What Putin hoped to be a huge publicity triumph is turning into a PR disaster, second only to the downing of MH17. He might go down in history as “empty-truck Putin,” or “Ebenezer Putin.” Next time he should think things through before he embarks on another misadventure.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/08/16/another-putin-blunder-the-almost-empty-russian-humanitarian-convoy/

miss tickle

loughside wrote: »

The Misadventures of `Empty-truck Putin`

What was supposed to be a PR bonanza is ending up as another black eye for Vladimir Putin, the heralded chess master of world politics. Did he really expect the world community to force Ukraine to allow in Russia’s gift of humanitarian assistance, no questions asked?
Did he really think that Ukraine would allow his convoy to proceed into a war zone as cameras recorded the celebratory reception by starving and suffering civilians?
Did Putin really not understand that national leaders look askance at attempts to cross national borders without permission? That is the International Politics 101 lecture that Putin failed to attend.
An official government website, Russia Behind the News, heralded the impending delivery to beleaguered Donbassians of “some 2,000 tonnes of humanitarian supplies” in 280 KamAz trucks, including “400 tonnes of cereal, 100 tonnes of sugar, 62 tonnes of baby food, 54 tonnes of medical equipment and medication, 12,000 sleeping bags, and 69 portable power generators.”
What good news, but how were these supplies to get across the border, much less into an active war zone?
As would be expected, negotiations among Russia, Ukraine, and the International Committee of the Red Cross failed on August 14, after international leaders called in protest.
Putin could not afford a direct confrontation so he blinked. The white-painted KamAz-truck convoy ended up parked near the Ukrainian border awaiting inspection, as some hundred curious reporters swarmed the scene, taking pictures as they urged drivers to display the contents of the trucks.
To the shock of the reporters, trucks contained a few bags of flour, a large bundle of bottled water, and other miscellaneous items – far from the cornucopia promised by Russian propaganda.
In his video report, a BBC reporter reacted to what he had seen: “What strikes me most about these lorries is that they are almost empty.” When asked about another truck that remained unopened, the BBC reporter was told its manifest stated it contained eight tons of buckwheat flour – two tons in excess of the KAMaz’s maximum load. So we have near empty trucks alongside those carrying more than their allowable weight.
The “almost empty” narrative (see also reporter Courtney Weaver’s photos) has turned Putin’s humanitarian gesture into a running joke. One writer has dubbed the convoy the “Trojan Mules.” A social media commentator quips that the trucks are half empty so that they can pick up Polish vegetables and apples on the way back.
Another asks why Russia would send 100 trucks that are two percent full instead of five that are 100 percent full? According to my calculation, that would have saved Russia 50,000 gallons of diesel fuel.
The “almost empty” convoy has conspiracy theorists looking for a rational explanation. One making the rounds is that Russia needs a large number of trucks to extract their mercenary forces from Ukraine, spelling the end or lessening of the guerilla war sponsored by Russia, at least for the time being.
A second story is that the 280 transport vehicles would give pro-Russian forces a logistical boost. Sources with extensive military experience, however, tell me that such trucks would not prove of much value on the Donbass war front.
I’ll go with the simplest explanation: Putin wanted to make a big PR splash for his August 14 speech in Crimea – a speech so lackluster that the full transcript has not been published on Putin’s web site. (Kremlinologists: figure that one out). He planned to present himself to Crimea and the world as the humanitarian, peace-loving Putin. The world listened, heard his usual pleas for peace, and world stock markets fell. They have heard this story too many times.
Even more humiliating is that Ukrainian aid has already arrived with more to follow. To make matters worse, reporters, whiling away their time on the unguarded border, are reporting armored personnel carriers loaded with Russian troops (with Russian insignia no less) whizzing unhindered across the border. Russia’s protests that reporters should not “believe their lying eyes” seem to be falling on empty ears.
What Putin hoped to be a huge publicity triumph is turning into a PR disaster, second only to the downing of MH17. He might go down in history as “empty-truck Putin,” or “Ebenezer Putin.” Next time he should think things through before he embarks on another misadventure.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/08/16/another-putin-blunder-the-almost-empty-russian-humanitarian-convoy/

One thing that stands out for me here is the fact that it took an offer of humanitarian aid from Russia to embarrass Kiev into providing Aid for it's own people. How many weeks ago is it now since this was raised at a UN meeting?

Also the stock market did not fall because of Putin's plea for peace, they fell because Kiev announced they had destroyed part of a Russian convoy, raising the prospect of an escalation in the conflict.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-15/it-begins-ukraine-troops-destroy-part-armed-russian-convoy

comongethappy

miss tickle wrote: »

Also the stock market did not fall because of Putin's plea for peace, they fell because Kiev announced they had destroyed part of a Russian convoy, raising the prospect of an escalation in the conflict

A rather skewed perspective?

Most normal people would consider sending an armoured column into a foreign nation as a clear escalation.

The Putinistas exist on a different plane of reality though, where defending against a far stronger foreign invader is "escalating" the conflict.

Busted Flat.

Anyone notice the lack of coverage and reporting about the M17 disaster, 298 innocent men women and children were murdered. Why no coverage, what are they hiding. We are entitle to know what happened, no mattered who is embarrassed about the slaughter.

comongethappy

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Anyone notice the lack of coverage and reporting about the M17 disaster, 298 innocent men women and children were murdered. Why no coverage, what are they hiding. We are entitle to know what happened, no mattered who is embarrassed about the slaughter.

Who are "they".....?

Don't know about you, but I imagine while investigations are still ongoing (and could take months) the broadcast media might struggle to devote round-the-clock coverage to it.

darkpagandeath

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Anyone notice the lack of coverage and reporting about the M17 disaster, 298 innocent men women and children were murdered. Why no coverage, what are they hiding. We are entitle to know what happened, no mattered who is embarrassed about the slaughter.

Waiting for the investigation to be further ahead sometime in September. Not hiding anything. Investigations take time, esp when your dealing with a war torn area.

miss tickle

comongethappy wrote: »

A rather skewed perspective?

Most normal people would consider sending an armoured column into a foreign nation as a clear escalation.

The Putinistas exist on a different plane of reality though, where defending against a far stronger foreign invader is "escalating" the conflict.

Well in fairness it was just a couple of non-committal tweets, it wasn't until Porshenko stated that part of a Russian convoy was destroyed that the markets dipped.

Elmer Blooker

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Anyone notice the lack of coverage and reporting about the M17 disaster, 298 innocent men women and children were murdered. Why no coverage, what are they hiding. We are entitle to know what happened, no mattered who is embarrassed about the slaughter.

Exactly. In my opinion sending the MH17 black boxes to a country that is a NATO member and also the most pro US country on earth is a very serious violation of international law. Does anyone really believe that an "impartial" investigation is possible.
* I don't believe that Farnborough, UK is the only place that has the technology to decipher the black boxes, thats yet another lie.

Most normal people would consider sending an armoured column into a foreign nation as a clear escalation

..... most normal people now realise that this "armoured column" never existed.

darkpagandeath

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Exactly. In my opinion sending the MH17 black boxes to a country that is a NATO member and also the most pro US country on earth is a very serious violation of international law. Does anyone really believe that an "impartial" investigation is possible.
* I don't believe that Farnborough, UK is the only place that has the technology to decipher the black boxes, thats yet another lie.

Where would you send them ? Maybe this is one of the best places in the world with the best experts ? And what made up law is being broken ?

comongethappy

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Where would you send them ? Maybe this is one of the best places in the world with the best experts ? And what made up law is being broken ?

I too would love to see the international statute being broken by the UK accident investigation service examining the flight data recorders.

I'd also like evidence showing their lack of impartiality.

As with all of Elmer's posts though.... its all hysteria, thin on facts unfortunately.

Elmer Blooker

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Where would you send them ? Maybe this is one of the best places in the world with the best experts ? And what made up law is being broken ?

since when? I have never ever heard of black boxes from previous plane crashes having to go to the UK because they have the "best experts"
"made up law" - you said it... I love it.......

Elmer Blooker

comongethappy wrote: »

I too would love to see the international statute being broken by the UK accident investigation service examining the flight data recorders.

I'd also like evidence showing their lack of impartiality.

As with all of Elmer's posts though.... its all hysteria, thin on facts unfortunately.

you probably aren't aware of the activities of British intelligence in Northern Ireland but I'm going off topic when I know I shouldn't.
"all hysteria, thin on facts"
how are things with the Russian armoured column in Ukraine, have they reached kiev yet?

darkpagandeath

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

since when? I have never ever heard of black boxes from previous plane crashes having to go to the UK because they have the "best experts"
"made up law" - you said it... I love it.......

Do you work in the Flight recorder data recovery industry ? Or the air crash investigation industry ? There maybe a very good reason why you have not heard of them then.

Busted Flat.

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Where would you send them ? Maybe this is one of the best places in the world with the best experts ? And what made up law is being broken ?

The brits claimed to have the best forensic laboratory in the world, they convicted the Birmingham six and the Guilford four on their evidence. They went to Iraq and Afghanistan to gain the hearts and minds of the people, because they had experience in the occupied counties in our country. They were found guilty of inhuman and degrading treatment of our citizens 40 years ago, they done the same to the civilians they tortured in Iraq and Afghanistan. We are now going to have to accept the results of this corrupt democracy into the MH17 slaughter. Get a life.

pablomakaveli

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Exactly. In my opinion sending the MH17 black boxes to a country that is a NATO member and also the most pro US country on earth is a very serious violation of international law. Does anyone really believe that an "impartial" investigation is possible.
* I don't believe that Farnborough, UK is the only place that has the technology to decipher the black boxes, thats yet another lie.

Any evidence or links that back that claim up? Since you seem so cynical of it i presume you have something to share with us in that regard.

Elmer Blooker

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Do you work in the Flight recorder data recovery industry ? Or the air crash investigation industry ? There maybe a very good reason why you have not heard of them then.

I'll just repeat what I said, I have never heard before that flight recorders had to go to the UK because they are the only ones who have the technology to decipher black boxes.
I'm watching BBC News 24 at the moment and theres something about "rebels have been trained in Russia" - the usual propaganda with no evidence provided but why let the truth get in the way of a good story. Any moron knows that the Russian rebels would have done military service and know how to use firearms, some of the older ones might have served in Afghanistan?

They went to Iraq and Afghanistan to gain the hearts and minds of the people,

.......... and they killed them.... oh sorry, its called collateral damage!

pablomakaveli

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I'll just repeat what I said, I have never heard before that flight recorders had to go to the UK because they are the only ones who have the technology to decipher black boxes.

They're not being deciphered. The data gets downloaded and passed to international investigators who do the analysis.

The Dutch leading the investigation were obviously happy enough with their reliability if they requested them to do it.

pablomakaveli

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I'm watching BBC News 24 at the moment and theres something about "rebels have been trained in Russia" - the usual propaganda with no evidence provided but why let the truth get in the way of a good story. Any moron knows that the Russian rebels would have done military service and know how to use firearms, some of the older ones might have served in Afghanistan?

You can watch the man say it himself here if thats any better.

I think being trained for 4 months inthe Russian Federation is a bit different from service with the old Soviet army.

Busted Flat.

pablomakaveli wrote: »

They're not being deciphered. The data gets downloaded and passed to international investigators who do the analysis.

The Dutch leading the investigation were obviously happy enough with their reliability if they requested them to do it.

The Malaysian's are not to happy are they.

Elmer Blooker

pablomakaveli wrote: »

You can watch the man say it himself here if thats any better.

I think being trained for 4 months inthe Russian Federation is a bit different from service with the old Soviet army.

It was not possible to verify Mr Zakharchenko’s claims of massing troops independently

Really?

Piliger

Busted Flat. wrote: »

The brits claimed to have the best forensic laboratory in the world, they convicted the Birmingham six and the Guilford four on their evidence. They went to Iraq and Afghanistan to gain the hearts and minds of the people, because they had experience in the occupied counties in our country. They were found guilty of inhuman and degrading treatment of our citizens 40 years ago, they done the same to the civilians they tortured in Iraq and Afghanistan. We are now going to have to accept the results of this corrupt democracy into the MH17 slaughter. Get a life.

Ah yes Putin's Russia - where no one has ever been wrongly convicted .. The Russia that was driven out of Afghanistan after failing to woo the Afghans .. The Russia that behaves inhumanly to it's population every day of the week and still maintains gulags in Siberia .. The Russia where they torture people at an industrial level every day of the week also.

I'll take the British every day of every week for a thousand years before I trust a single word from Russia's own Proto-Hitler.

darkpagandeath

Busted Flat. wrote: »

The Malaysian's are not to happy are they.

Link ?

Elmer Blooker

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuala_Lumpur_War_Crimes_Commission
Read this ^ Those Malaysians are a difficult and awkward lot, not to be trusted

The former United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Independence of Judges and Lawyers, Param Cumaraswamy, has suggested the tribunal is a private enterprise with no legal basis and questions its legitimacy

........ so its just like the UN then!

aloyisious

One month ago yesterday. R.I.P. those who died on the plane.

Guy:Incognito

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Anyone notice the lack of coverage and reporting about the M17 disaster, 298 innocent men women and children were murdered. Why no coverage, what are they hiding. We are entitle to know what happened, no mattered who is embarrassed about the slaughter.

What sort of coverage are you after? Something like big brother? "day 35, investigators are doing investigaty stuff - looking at bits of plane and what not" , day 36 "investigators are still doing stuff" day 37 " yep, still doing stuff" ..........

Lets be honest, whatever they come out and say , certain people are just going to throw around the usual conspiracy stuff anyway so why bother waiting for the "mainstream media" to lie to you?

Guy:Incognito

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

but I'm going off topic when I know I shouldn't.

No, your doing it because you know you have to to deflect from the questions about what laws are being broken. Its terrible when people wont just let you drop an accusation in to a thread and take it as being the truth, isn't it?

Busted Flat.

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

What sort of coverage are you after? Something like big brother? "day 35, investigators are doing investigaty stuff - looking at bits of plane and what not" , day 36 "investigators are still doing stuff" day 37 " yep, still doing stuff" ..........

Lets be honest, whatever they come out and say , certain people are just going to throw around the usual conspiracy stuff anyway so why bother waiting for the "mainstream media" to lie to you?

You missed my point, the coverage was 24/7 up till the Malaysian press broke with their story on the 12/8/14.

Elmer Blooker

Shocking!
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/08/official-investigation-downing-malaysian-plane-now-clearly-hoax.html

This means that the Ukrainian Government, which is itself suspected of having brought the airliner down, is participating in the decoding of the information to determine who brought this plane down. Is it supposed to be acceptable legal practice, anywhere in the world, to have a major suspect in a possible criminal investigation participate in the investigation to determine whom, if anyone, to charge (i.e., whether the event wasn’t merely a tragic error on the part of whomever fired the shot or shots that brought this plane down)? Obviously, it is not. Consequently, the immediate question here is whether this “investigation” is itself a crime.