Electric Shower Overheating issue

Bruthal

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

When you say selector you mean flow switch (valve) depending if your quoting mira/triton termonology?

Element selector. 8.5kw showers usually have 2 elements. You can switch on none, one or both. And that's why the pressure switch obviously has to be in the circuit pre element selector switches.

The overheat cutout only cuts out one half of the element set on the Triton showers too. Likely similar on others.

Bruthal

Sleeper12 wrote: »

We'd be lost without you.

Well I made a mistake not just asking you why the pressure switch was before the selector. I have a feeling the answer may have been interesting reading:)

Sir Arthur Daley

Bruthal wrote: »

Element selector

Isnt the element selector not the pressure switch assembly?

Bruthal

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Isnt the element selector not the pressure switch assembly?

Whatever assembly is what, I'm just talking about the wiring circuit at the minute. What different manufacturers call each part is up to themselves. Open a shower up and they are incredibly simple devices to see what's what in them.

Sleeper12

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Isnt the element selector not the pressure switch assembly?

No the pressure switch is always in the assembly that controls the water pressure. On the cover it's the dial that changes the flow of water. The other dial controls the micro switches to the elements. These micro switches are not the pressure switch. Pressure switch has to have water flowing through it.

Sleeper12

Bruthal wrote: »

Well I made a mistake not just asking you why the pressure switch was before the selector. I have a feeling the answer may have been interesting reading:)

Answer to water and electricity don't mix.

John T Carroll

Bruthal wrote: »

It would be no harm to point out why when you say pressure switch is always before selector. Especially when you emphasise the "after" word.

You forgot to tell him there is no contactor switching the elements. The pressure switch does it directly.

Yes, apologies, should have said contact and not contactor, I did open up a fire damaged (scrapped) Mira Sport a few years ago to satisfy my inquisitive mind and got a fairly good idea of how it worked. The fire seems to have started in the main terminal block and certainly did a lot of damage.

Bruthal

John T Carroll wrote: »

Yes, apologies, should have said contact and not contactor, I did open up a fire damaged (scrapped) Mira Sport a few years ago to satisfy my inquisitive mind and got a fairly good idea of how it worked. The fire seems to have started in the main terminal block and certainly did a lot of damage.

I think manufacturers should fit a relay and start-stop buttons wired like a dol starter instead of the on off button. Especially with priority units used more and more now. It's very easy to do for anyone with proper understanding of shower operation but I think they should be standard.

Sleeper12

Below is the manual for a Triton T90si It shows the Pressure switch (Number 11) & Power selector assembly (number 6).
Under the cover of the Power selector assembly you will find the element micro switches. The pressure switch activates the element micro switches.
In later models the flow valve & pressure switch are in a sealed unit. On the latest model Triton T90z it is now called a Stabilising valve

A little off subject here but most calls about mains fed showers not working is because the mains pressure has dropped. The pressure switch can't engage because of lack of pressure so in turn the element micro switches can't turn on. The result is solenoid opens ok so you have water but no heat.
This is why generally mains fed showers are not suitable for most of Ireland.
They are great on a pressurized system:)

Bruthal

Micro switches "activated" by another switch. I never heard it described like that before.

Sleeper12

Bruthal wrote: »

Micro switches "activated" by another switch. I never heard it described like that before.

See. You learned something today.

Bruthal

Sleeper12 wrote: »

See. You learned something today.

How exactly does a micro switch get activated by another switch?

John T Carroll

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Answer to water and electricity don't mix.

They certainly don't and I am still very slightly surprised that we are allowed to happily splash about (cavort?) in a water spray with our noses a few inches from a plastic covered 230 Volt supply.

Bruthal

John T Carroll wrote: »

They certainly don't and I am still very slightly surprised that we are allowed to happily splash about (cavort?) in a water spray with our noses a few inches from a plastic covered 230 Volt supply.

Perhaps ban cars too?

Sleeper12

Bruthal wrote: »

How exactly does a micro switch get activated by another switch?

I put up the diagram. That should explain everything.
But I'll answer it anyway & then you can pull my answer apart. So talking about the triton t90si.
The water for the shower activates the pressure switch. As the water flows through the shower (assuming it's the right pressure) it pushes up the pressure switch. This switch is plastic.
The element micro switches are always off switches so if the pressure switch isn't activated the element switches will stay off.
There is a plastic arm that goes between the safety switch & the element micro switch. This allows you to select 1,2 or 0 elements.
As the micro switches can not be turned on (always off switches) without the pressure switch in the on position then it's fair to say that the pressure switch turns on the element micro switches.
Technically you could also say that the on off button / switch turns on the the element micro switches.

Bruthal

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I put up the diagram. That should explain everything.
But I'll answer it anyway & then you can pull my answer apart. So talking about the triton t90si.
The water for the shower activates the pressure switch. As the water flows through the shower (assuming it's the right pressure) it pushes up the pressure switch. This switch is plastic.

The element micro switches are always off switches so if the pressure switch isn't activated the element switches will stay off.

Always off? Micro switches used in showers are normally open switches (n/o)

The element selector mechanically closes them. The pressure switch closing supplies current to the micro switches terminal, and any that are closed supply the elements. Saying that activates them may be your way of
saying the pressure switch supplies the micro switch with current. But to say the pressure switch activates the micro switch is real DIY description.

Nothing happens to the micro switch when the pressure switch closes. They either conduct if closed, or don't if open.

Sleeper12

Bruthal wrote: »

Always off? Micro switches used in showers are normally open switches (n/o)

The element selector mechanically closes them. The pressure switch closing supplies current to the micro switches terminal, and any that are closed supply the elements. Saying that activates them may be your way of
saying the pressure switch supplies the micro switch with current. But to say the pressure switch activates the micro switch is real DIY description.

Nothing happens to the micro switch when the pressure switch closes. They either conduct if closed, or don't if open.

You could say that the on off switch supplies current to the micro switches from what you are saying
So you agree with me at last.
Well done.

Sleeper12

Saying that activates them may be your way of
saying the pressure switch supplies the micro switch with current

Following this way of describing things you can also say "water supplies the micro switch with current".
And to think they say water & electricity don't mix!

Bruthal

Sleeper12 wrote: »

So you agree with me at last.

No not really. I know showers are incredibly simple. You think they are complex.

So no, we don't agree at all.

Bruthal

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Saying that activates them may be your way of
saying the pressure switch supplies the micro switch with current

Following this way of describing things you can also say "water supplies the micro switch with current".
And to think they say water & electricity don't mix!

Total gibberish. The water causes the pressure switch to activate....You know...change state.

It then conducts electricity. It supplies this electricity to the micro switches. The micro switches, depending on their state according to the selector switch, conduct electrical current to the elements.

What is it you actually do? Qualifications?

Sleeper12

Bruthal wrote: »

No not really. I know showers are incredibly simple. You think they are complex.

So no, we don't agree at all.

Very simple & yet people here yesterday and today though that they could test a pressure switch or flow switch with a multi meter. You can't test plastic with a multi meter.
Having said that, I do find showers very simple. Not because of facts and figures, equations etc. I find them simple from years of working on them. 90% or more of the time I can diagnose the shower over the phone.
I saw a thread here about a shower not working , it went on for days. Pages & pages. Try this, try that. Use multi meter. Turns out it was the pull cord switch. Light was still on so it was the last thing be tested. Sometimes people can be too technical. I could have diagnosed it in 2 minutes over the phone.
AAsk the right questions. Shower not working. Ask when you turn it on can you hear the pump. No? Ok is there even a dribble of water coming out? No? Sorted, you do not have 230v going to the shower. No noise = pump not on. No water =solenoid not opening. Chances of both parts failing at the same time? I've never seen it before in all the years I've been doing showers.
So I'm going to tell the client it's the trip switch or the pull cord switch. 99% of the time it is the pull cord. I can quote over the phone. Obviously I do test with multi meter when I get there just to confirm.
I believe that you actually make showers sound more complex than they are. Sometimes you just have to listen to the shower to find out what is wrong.
If someone says they smell burning or the shower is leaking then I have to see it first. Anything else I can diagnose without seeing it.
EEasy peasy

Sleeper12

Bruthal wrote: »

Total gibberish. The water causes the pressure switch to activate....You know...change state.

It then conducts electricity. It supplies this electricity to the micro switches. The micro switches, depending on their state according to the selector switch, conduct electrical current to the elements.

What is it you actually do? Qualifications?

The plastic pressure switch can conduct electricity? No here's me thinking plastic wouldn't be a good conductor of electricity. I thought it would melt.
II'm not an electrician so I'll bow to your superior knowledge. If you say plastic conducts electricity I'll believe you.

Bruthal

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Very simple & yet people here yesterday and today though that they could test a pressure switch or flow switch with a multi meter. You can't test plastic with a multi meter.
Having said that, I do find showers very simple. Not because of facts and figures, equations etc. I find them simple from years of working on them. 90% or more of the time I can diagnose the shower over the phone.
I saw a thread here about a shower not working , it went on for days. Pages & pages. Try this, try that. Use multi meter. Turns out it was the pull cord switch. Light was still on so it was the last thing be tested. Sometimes people can be too technical. I could have diagnosed it in 2 minutes over the phone.
AAsk the right questions. Shower not working. Ask when you turn it on can you hear the pump. No? Ok is there even a dribble of water coming out? No? Sorted, you do not have 230v going to the shower. No noise = pump not on. No water =solenoid not opening. Chances of both parts failing at the same time? I've never seen it before in all the years I've been doing showers.
So I'm going to tell the client it's the trip switch or the pull cord switch. 99% of the time it is the pull cord. I can quote over the phone. Obviously I do test with multi meter when I get there just to confirm.
I believe that you actually make showers sound more complex than they are. Sometimes you just have to listen to the shower to find out what is wrong.
If someone says they smell burning or the shower is leaking then I have to see it first. Anything else I can diagnose without seeing it.
EEasy peasy

There is nothing to them. But you still can't increase the temperature of 10 litre per minute with an 8.5kw input to the water by any more than the calculation says, no matter what you do. That's as constant as speed of Light

Bruthal

Sleeper12 wrote: »

The plastic pressure switch can conduct electricity? No here's me thinking plastic wouldn't be a good conductor of electricity. I thought it would melt.
II'm not an electrician so I'll bow to your superior knowledge. If you say plastic conducts electricity I'll believe you.

Just as suspected. A layman who fixes showers.

Sleeper12

Bruthal wrote: »

There is nothing to them. But you still can't increase the temperature of 10 litre per minute with an 8.5kw input to the water by any more than the calculation says, no matter what you do. That's as constant as speed of Light

No but plastic conducts electricity! Let me tell you my diy explanation made a lot more sense than plastic conducting electricity!

Sleeper12

Bruthal wrote: »

Just in case your not pretending to be able bit simple..
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure_switch

Will you go away with yourself.
So by my finger pushing a light switch on I'm conducting electricity?

Enough of showers for today for me.

Sir Arthur Daley

Is it a possibility the micro switches may be faulty more than the pressure switch assembly?

2011

Mod warning:
Debate is welcome, but please do not let it get personal.
If you disagree please be civil about it.
No posts have been deleted or edited so far and I want to keep it that way.

Thanks

Sleeper12

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Is it a possibility the micro switches may be faulty more than the pressure switch assembly?

It's not possible that the pressure switch or the micro switches are faulty.
When you turn off the power switch (on off switch) the solenoid closes (you know this cos water stops running) so the pressure drops, so pressure switch is no longer on. Pressure switch no longer on then the element micro switches can't be on.
Even if the micro switches were stuck on, there is still no power going to them.
So its not the solenoid, pressure switch, micro switches or Tco (faulty Tco & element won't heat at all).
That leaves the heating can / element. It can't be anything else. Even without the kettling noise (you only get this in showers from a lot of limescale. This limescale can not be removed) without even seeing the shower you can see its impossible to be anything else.

Bruthal

Sleeper12 wrote: »

So by my finger pushing a light switch on I'm conducting electricity?

I seen a few shower fixers here. Usually no real technical knowledge of the electrical operation. But you seem genuinely knowledgeable. A breath of fresh air. Now all you need to do is awaken.