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Electric Shower Overheating issue

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    #152
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 17,092 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Bruthal wrote: »
    I seen a few shower fixers here. Usually no real technical knowledge of the electrical operation. But you seem genuinely knowledgeable. A breath of fresh air. Now all you need to do is awaken.

    I'm the shower whisperer.
    :)


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    #153
    Sir Arthur Daley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,720 ✭✭✭Sir Arthur Daley


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    It's not possible that the pressure switch or the micro switches are faulty.
    When you turn off the power switch (on off switch) the solenoid closes (you know this cos water stops running) so the pressure drops, so pressure switch is no longer on. Pressure switch no longer on then the element micro switches can't be on.
    Even if the micro switches were stuck on, there is still no power going to them.
    So its not the solenoid, pressure switch, micro switches or Tco (faulty Tco & element won't heat at all).
    That leaves the heating can / element. It can't be anything else. Even without the kettling noise (you only get this in showers from a lot of limescale. This limescale can not be removed) without even seeing the shower you can see its impossible to be anything else.

    Is there not power at the common terminal of the micro switch always?


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    #154
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »
    Is there not power at the common terminal of the micro switch always?

    The micro switches are fed from the pressure switch. No water pressure on pressure switch, no power supply to micro switches.


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    #155
    Sir Arthur Daley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,720 ✭✭✭Sir Arthur Daley


    Bruthal wrote: »
    The micro switches are fed from the pressure switch. No water pressure on pressure switch, no power supply to micro switches.

    No you missed what i am saying, say a mira shower the common terminal on each micro switch has 230v once the tco has not isolated the power due to temperature change. This is regardless of shower being switched off or on.


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    #156
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 17,092 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »
    Is there not power at the common terminal of the micro switch always?

    If the element micro switches had power after the shower is turned off then the water would keep hearing up till the Tco tripped. The Tco would keep resetting itself & the water would heat up every 5 minutes or so. This isn't happening.
    No offence to the op but as the police would say, he doesn't make a good witness.
    He hears the boiling noise when he turns off the shower for 10 seconds or so, then the click of the Tco. That's it. He can't hear it the rest of the time because he'd hear it constantly every 5 minutes or so & the Tco would totally fail if this continued.
    It's important to listen to the client but it's important to filter out the improbable too. If I had a euro for every time someone swore blind that their 10 year old shower is a triton & I get there and it's a mira. I've gone to houses being told they have a t90 & turns out they have a power shower.


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    #157
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »
    No you missed what i am saying, say a mira shower the common terminal on each micro switch has 230v once the tco has not isolated the power due to temperature change. This is regardless of shower being switched off or on.

    But when the shower is switched off, the pressure switch opens. This disconnects supply from the micro switches.

    All showers during normal operation, have the water in the heating can soar up after switch off. In a lime scale filled can, the elements are already hotter than normal due to being insulated from the water. So they are more likely to trip the over heat cut out.

    The op didn't seem completely clear on what was happening. But from what I've seen, lime scale in can is likely adding to what often happens anyway in these showers.


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    #158
    Sir Arthur Daley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,720 ✭✭✭Sir Arthur Daley


    Bruthal wrote: »
    But when the shower is switched off, the pressure switch opens. This disconnects supply from the micro switches.

    No it does not, the pressure switch has its supply on the common terminal terminal regardless of the pressure switch.


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    #159
    Sir Arthur Daley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,720 ✭✭✭Sir Arthur Daley


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    If the element micro switches had power after the shower is turned off then the water would keep hearing up till the Tco tripped. The Tco would keep resetting itself & the water would heat up every 5 minutes or so. This isn't happening.

    The behaviour of the micro switches may be erratic. Once the pull cord switch or wall switch main isolation switch is on regardless of whether the shower is running or not the common terminal of the micro switches has 230v. Obviously the tco has not isolated power in either example to have 230 volts presence.


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    #160
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    If the element micro switches had power after the shower is turned off then the water would keep hearing up till the Tco tripped. The Tco would keep resetting itself & the water would heat up every 5 minutes or so

    With no water flow and elements staying on, thermal fuse will likely go. It certainly would on and t90


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    #161
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »
    No it does not, the pressure switch has its supply on the common terminal terminal regardless of the pressure switch.

    Diagram?


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    #162
    Sir Arthur Daley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,720 ✭✭✭Sir Arthur Daley


    Bruthal wrote: »
    Diagram?

    I referenced my post to a mira shower, let me do a google for proof.



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    #163
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 17,092 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »
    The behaviour of the micro switches may be erratic. Once the pull cord switch or wall switch main isolation switch is on regardless of whether the shower is running or not the common terminal of the micro switches has 230v. Obviously the tco has not isolated power in either example to have 230 volts presence.

    The micro switches are always off, unless the pressure switch is activated. No pressure, no power. Unless the micro switch burns out in the on position (I've never seen or heard of this happening) maybe Bruthal can correct me here but I don't think it is likely (or possible) for the micro switch to fail in this way


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    #164
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    The micro switches are always off, unless the pressure switch is activated. No pressure, no power. Unless the micro switch burns out in the on position (I've never seen or heard of this happening) maybe Bruthal can correct me here but I don't think it is likely (or possible) for the micro switch to fail in this way

    No never seen them fail. But they are always in the on position anyway if the element selector is set to on. They just have no power to them when shower is off because pressure switch opens, disconnecting power to them.


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    #165
    Sir Arthur Daley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,720 ✭✭✭Sir Arthur Daley


    Bruthal wrote: »
    Diagram?

    Page 5 of this link.

    http://www.mirashowers.co.uk/onlinecatalog/pdf/1056830_w2_l_mira_elite_st.pdf


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    #166
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    The micro switches are always off, unless the pressure switch is activated.

    This is referred to as a Normally Open (NO) switch.
    Unless the micro switch burns out in the on position (I've never seen or heard of this happening) maybe Bruthal can correct me here but I don't think it is likely (or possible) for the micro switch to fail in this way

    A switch can fail in either position.
    A NO switch is far less likely to fail in the closed position.

    Switches are generally installed so that they are in a safe state when de-energized.


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    #167
    Sir Arthur Daley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,720 ✭✭✭Sir Arthur Daley


    Bruthal wrote: »
    Diagram?

    Triton page 12

    http://www.tritonshowers.ie/media/11724/t90xr.pdf


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    #168
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »
    Page 5 of this link.

    http://www.mirashowers.co.uk/onlinecatalog/pdf/1056830_w2_l_mira_elite_st.pdf

    I'll download in few minutes as I'm using phone. On t90 the thermal cutout only disconnects half the element. That's likely on the Mira too.


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    #169
    cerastes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭cerastes


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    NEVER turn off the electric shower by the pull cord switch. They are not designed for this & you'll burn it out.

    The boiling noise you hear is called kettleing. The noise is thousands of air bubbles around the element. This is a sure sign that your element is caked with limescale. No limescale, no kettleing noise. You need a new element or shower if your old shower is old. The limescale is the reason the warning light comes on.

    If getting the shower replaced try go for a Mira or Triton. Most of the other brands are rubbish

    I started reading the thread, was going to reply but got sidetracked.

    Just wondering why you say this? The Triton T90's that Ive seen instructions for say an isolation switch should be fitted and used (switched off) when the shower is not in use.

    My own if switched off when in use, will not operate if you try turn it back on soon after it has been running very warm/hot, (thermal cut off/out of some description on the can I'd say), when it does some of the water will still be hot, too hot for comfort.
    Ive tried to promote the idea of running it cold even briefly after finishing in the shower in my house but I may as well be talking to the dead or a wall, I do this on the basis that I think its safer if someone just gets in after another person has just finished and because I think its better (potential longevity of the shower life) not to let hot water just sit there. I also suggest for safety to let the shower run before its aimed at the person taking the shower, I do this as I dont like to get a blast of cold (or hot) water before the temp stabilises.

    But I always shut off the isolation switch and only one has ever burned out and that was after edit over the duration of 2 tritons over 17 years, the first one shower lasted ten with heavy use.edit the first switch lasted 6 years and was replaced.


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    #170
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »
    Page 5 of this link.

    http://www.mirashowers.co.uk/onlinecatalog/pdf/1056830_w2_l_mira_elite_st.pdf

    The Mira seems to have the pressure switch and selector as single assembly. Pressure switch disconnects elements either way.

    Triton not showing pressure switch in it's diagram.


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    #171
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    cerastes wrote: »
    I started reading the thread, was going to reply but got sidetracked.

    Just wondering why you say this? The Triton T90's that Ive seen instructions for say an isolation switch should be fitted and used (switched off) when the shower is not in use.

    My own if switched off when in use, will not operate if you try turn it back on soon after it has been running very warm/hot, (thermal cut off/out of some description on the can I'd say), when it does some of the water will still be hot, too hot for comfort.
    Ive tried to promote the idea of running it cold even briefly after finishing in the shower in my house but I may as well be talking to the dead or a wall, I do this on the basis that I think its safer if someone just gets in after another person has just finished and because I think its better (potential longevity of the shower life) not to let hot water just sit there. I also suggest for safety to let the shower run before its aimed at the person taking the shower, I do this as I dont like to get a blast of cold (or hot) water before the temp stabilises.

    But I always shut off the isolation switch and only one has ever burned out and that was after 2 tritons over 17 years, the first one lasted ten with heavy use.

    I think he means don't use the pull chord to actually break the shower load.

    I leave my isolator on permanently. It's a wall switch.


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    #172
    John T Carroll
    Closed Accounts Posts: 757 ✭✭✭John T Carroll


    Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »
    Page 5 of this link.

    http://www.mirashowers.co.uk/onlinecatalog/pdf/1056830_w2_l_mira_elite_st.pdf

    Sorry Sir Arthur, I couldnt open the link. On my very basic diagram ( Mira Sport) it DOES show a supply to each terminal of the heater elements but then it shows the switching via the "Pressure/Power Selector Switch" and it certainly looks to me at any rate that the pressure switch has to be made to complete the circuit into the elements. There is only one thermal trip disc which interrupts the power to both elements.
    The schematic also shows that if the contacts open due to low water pressure then the switches open and the Low Flow Light is illuminated via the on/off switch (negative)


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    #173
    Sir Arthur Daley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,720 ✭✭✭Sir Arthur Daley


    Bruthal wrote: »
    The Mira seems to have the pressure switch and selector as single assembly. Pressure switch disconnects elements either way.

    Triton not showing pressure switch in it's diagram.

    I am making a specific point that the common terminals of the micro switches have 230v regardless of the pressure switch. You said previously that when the when the pressure switch opens it disconnets supply from the micro switches.


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    #174
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »
    I am making a specific point that the common terminals of the micro switches have 230v regardless of the pressure switch. You said previously that when the when the pressure switch opens it disconnets supply from the micro switches.

    Well I can't speak for every shower ever made. Sleeper said same thing I think. The Triton diagram shows no pressure switch.

    The Mira diagram doesn't differentiate between micro switches and pressure switch terminals anyway. Look at the low flow indicator. The switch operating it is obviously the pressure contact. Not the micro switch.


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    #175
    cerastes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭cerastes


    Bruthal wrote: »
    I think he means don't use the pull chord to actually break the shower load.

    I leave my isolator on permanently. It's a wall switch.

    ahha, to switch off the shower, I see, well no I wouldnt do that, mostly as mine is a wall mounted switch outside the bathroom as I dont like the pull chords anyway, but I wouldnt use that switch or any isolator to turn on/off the shower.
    Maybe I missed something else in the thread, I didnt interpret that the OP was saying they used the isolator to operate the shower, just that they did use it, but read it as that was after they already turned off the shower.

    I dont see the advantage to leave it on, life of the switch yes, but Triton does recommend having the isolator fitted and using it, didnt look at the wiring diagrams yet (have done so years ago) so cant recal if something is energised (dont think so) which may favour turning off the power completely, but I personally think its preferable. Then again my triton shower isnt used now as frequently as the first one was as try use residual hot water from the tank as much as possible.


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    #176
    Sir Arthur Daley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,720 ✭✭✭Sir Arthur Daley


    Bruthal wrote: »
    Well I can't speak for every shower ever made. Sleeper said same thing I think. The Triton diagram shows no pressure switch.

    I produced 2 links from 2 seperate manufactures, i produced proof to my first claim as you asked for a diagram. I produced another link from another manufacture. Where on the electrical drawings does it state that 230volts is not present on the common terminals of the micro switches regardless if the shower is on or off? Again take the tco out of the equation as i previously have explained.


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    #177
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    cerastes wrote: »
    ahha, to switch off the shower, I see, well no I wouldnt do that, mostly as mine is a wall mounted switch outside the bathroom as I dont like the pull chords anyway, but I wouldnt use that switch or any isolator to turn on/off the shower.
    Maybe I missed something else in the thread, I didnt interpret that the OP was saying they used the isolator to operate the shower, just that they did use it, but read it as that was after they already turned off the shower.

    I dont see the advantage to leave it on, life of the switch yes, but Triton does recommend having the isolator fitted and using it, didnt look at the wiring diagrams yet (have done so years ago) so cant recal if something is energised (dont think so) which may favour turning off the power completely, but I personally think its preferable. Then again my triton shower isnt used now as frequently as the first one was as try use residual hot water from the tank as much as possible.
    Yea I fitted a t bar mixer for the female friend a few weeks ago. Great job they are. Likely hard on the water tax though.


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    #178
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 17,092 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    2011 wrote: »
    This is referred to as a Normally Open (NO) switch.



    A switch can fail in either position.
    A NO switch is far less likely to fail in the closed position.

    Switches are generally installed so that they are in a safe state when de-energized.

    Thanks for pointing that out to me. I'm a plumber, not an electrician some some of the terminology I just do not have I'm afraid


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    #179
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »
    I produced 2 links from 2 seperate manufactures, i produced proof to my first claim as you asked for a diagram. I produced another link from another manufacture. Where on the electrical drawings does it state that 230volts is not present on the common terminals of the micro switches regardless if the shower is on or off? Again take the tco out of the equation as i previously have explained.
    Arthur, I know you love plumbers and 1-0 score lines. But it's not a contest. The Mira diagram is not showing the micro switches and pressure switch as separate items. And the Triton diagram doesn't seemp to have forgotten the pressure switch.


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    #180
    Sir Arthur Daley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,720 ✭✭✭Sir Arthur Daley


    Bruthal wrote: »
    Arthur, I know you love plumbers and 1-0 score lines. But it's not a contest. The Mira diagram is not showing the micro switches and pressure switch as separate items. And the Triton diagram doesn't seemp to have forgotten the pressure switch.

    Im debating your posts, can you please answer my posts. can you not admit i have proven your posts wrong?


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    #181
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »
    Im debating your posts, can you please answer my posts. can you not admit i have proven your posts wrong?

    You sent a Triton diagram. Where is the pressure switch in it? Does the t90 not have a pressure switch?

    The Mira diagram shows a double pole switch. One pole powers the low pressure light. Is that the pressure switch, or the selector? Because I can't see the selector switch possibly powering the low pressure light. Can you plumber lover?


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