How should Israel defend itself?

Gringo180

comongethappy wrote: »

I'm unsure what parts of Gaza are under occupation?
Is there Israeli settlements there?

It illegally occupies the west bank and east jerusalem.

mrsweebri

comongethappy wrote: »

I'm unsure what parts of Gaza are under occupation?
Is there Israeli settlements there?

there are no settlements in Gaza. But Israel retain control over most borders and all sea/port. That is why people refer to Gaza as an 'open prison'.

The best hope for peace comes from moderates on all sides. Unfortunately I think they're all dead.

Nodin

comongethappy wrote: »

I'm unsure what parts of Gaza are under occupation?
Is there Israeli settlements there?

Israel controls Gaza, and occupies Arab East Jerusalem, the West Bank etc.

mrsweebri

Actually that wasn't very constructive. I would also say that both sides must realise that any deal will not take place all at once. Palestinian government do not have control over their whole population, so there will be rogue elements that continue violence. Israel will have to accept this.

Israel are not able to suddenly move all settlers off occupied land, release all prisoners and end the Gaza siege in one week. So Palestinians will have to accept that their concessions will take time too. In the meantime the leaders on both sides AND THEIR BACKERS should openly call for peace among their own people.

I don't see it happening, but that would be my dream.

donaghb

so Israel defends by bombing hospitals???

comongethappy

donaghb wrote: »

so Israel defends by bombing hospitals???

If rockets are being launched from the rooftop of one, what do you expect.

The point of the thread is how can it be done in a way that isn't excessive & more acceptable to the Intl community.

Nino Brown

comongethappy wrote: »

If rockets are being launched from the rooftop of one, what do you expect.

The point of the thread is how can it be done in a way that isn't excessive & more acceptable to the Intl community.

I was actually impressed with the "knocking on the roof" idea, that gives people a chance at least.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69icTMgIjlw

comongethappy

Nino Brown wrote: »

I was actually impressed with the "knocking on the roof" idea, that gives people a chance at least.

So was I..... If only in the weapon.

A truck with a launcher on the back, would be disabled if struck by a heavier version of the "knock".... No explosives used.

The "knock" could disable a Hamas missile team operating from a rooftop.

No explosives & no excess damage, but the job would be done.

wes

comongethappy wrote: »

If rockets are being launched from the rooftop of one, what do you expect.

The operative word there is "if". There seems to be scant evidence of Hamas making attacks from hospital roof tops etc. We have seen to high profile examples of Israel attacking children on a beach, with no Hamas rocket fire in site, and this was confirmed by members of media who were there, and also an attack on a cafe showing the world cup as another example. It seems that Israel isn't exactly any better than Hamas, with there own attacks.

Also, the knock on the roof, is also a war crime, unless Israel can prove that attacks are being launched from that house. Giving civilians are warning that you are going to blow up there home, is still a war crime, unless Israel can show evidence that Hamas militants are operating there, and they have yet to provide any such evidence.

P_1

comongethappy wrote: »

If rockets are being launched from the rooftop of one, what do you expect.

The point of the thread is how can it be done in a way that isn't excessive & more acceptable to the Intl community.

But wouldn't the launcher be long gone by the time that Israel responds in kind? Yes by destroying the roof from which the rocket was launched you have the very short term gain of ensuring that no more rockets will be launched from it but you also have the (very real potential) long term loss of radicalising the people who lived in the now destroyed house and their relatives and ensuring that yet more rockets get fired at them.

It just doesn't strike me as a sound military option to take. Israel are taking far too much of a reactive response when they should be taking a more proactive one.

comongethappy

wes wrote: »

The operative word there is "if". There seems to be scant evidence of Hamas making attacks from hospital roof tops etc.

Last week on BBC radio 4's 'Today' programme, they aired a recorded interview with a doctor from a Gaza hospital.

The interview was interrupted by the booming nouse of a rocket salvo being fired from just outside the hospital.



Make no mistake.... It does happen.

comongethappy

P_1 wrote: »

But wouldn't the launcher be long gone by the time that Israel responds in kind?

It just doesn't strike me as a sound military option to take. Israel are taking far too much of a reactive response when they should be taking a more proactive one.

Absolutely.... Makes no sense to me either.... Especially with the truck mounted rockets.
They still get nailed from time to time if there is a jet loitering around.

But its not a sound strategy.

wes

comongethappy wrote: »

Last week on BBC radio 4's 'Today' programme, they aired a recorded interview with a doctor from a Gaza hospital.

The interview was interrupted by the booming nouse of a rocket salvo being fired from just outside the hospital.

You have a link? Not finding anything via Google. Also, considering how loud those things can be, I think it would be hard to pin point such an exact location via a phone call.

Also, you were making claims of rockets being fired from the rooftops of hospitals....

BlaasForRafa

comongethappy wrote: »

Last week on BBC radio 4's 'Today' programme, they aired a recorded interview with a doctor from a Gaza hospital.

The interview was interrupted by the booming nouse of a rocket salvo being fired from just outside the hospital.



Make no mistake.... It does happen.

Of course it does. The IDF released pictures of the Al-Wafa hospital being used as a launch site http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/183148#.U80SKfldV8E

and also video of palestinian homes being used by Hamas to fire at the IDF

The attitude of the anti-Israeli types on here is astounding. Do they really think that Hamas are operating in the best interests of the Gazan people? Do they really think that Hamas wouldn't put Gazan people in danger? Do they really think that Hamas wouldn't fire rockets or mortars from the vicinity of hospitals, schools and mosques? Do they really think that Hamas wouldn't use human shields?

comongethappy

wes wrote: »

You have a link? Not finding anything via Google. Also, considering how loud those things can be, I think it would be hard to pin point such an exact location via a phone call.

Also, you were making claims of rockets being fired from the rooftops of hospitals....

I don't.... It was on either Wednesday or Thursday I think, could be on iPlayer.

The doctor made reference to it being outside.
Proximity hard to tell, but it would have been metres, it seemed very close, the building shook.

Nodin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Of course it does. The IDF released pictures of the Al-Wafa hospital being used as a launch site

Well, that must be an unbiased and totally reliable report then so.

dissed doc

I think the actions of Israel to attack Hamas militants is about as useful as opening fire using armoured vehicles on an audience in Croke Park to try and attack the IRA.

wes

comongethappy wrote: »

I don't.... It was on either Wednesday or Thursday I think, could be on iPlayer.

The doctor made reference to it being outside.
Proximity hard to tell, but it would have been metres, it seemed very close, the building shook.

I went looking for any mention of that, and didn't find it anywhere. iPlayer is blocked outside the UK btw, so I have no way of confirming it, and I can' find a news article mentioning it either.

BlaasForRafa

comongethappy wrote: »

Absolutely.... Makes no sense to me either.... Especially with the truck mounted rockets.
They still get nailed from time to time if there is a jet loitering around.

But its not a sound strategy.

It's difficult either way, if Israel goes in on the ground then Hamas have booby-trapped the area, seven of the IDF soldiers that were lost on Saturday were killed when a gigantic mine was detonated under their armoured personnel carrier.

BlaasForRafa

wes wrote: »

I went looking for any mention of that, and didn't find it anywhere. iPlayer is blocked outside the UK btw, so I have no way of confirming it, and I can' find a news article mentioning it either.

It's easy to get around iplayer block, just use a uk proxy.

wes

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

It's easy to get around iplayer block, just use a uk proxy.

I know, but honestly considering that my search turned up nothing, and I don't know which day it was, and the lack of a provided link, I have already made plenty of effort to see if the claim is true. Ultimately its up to whoever is making the claim to back it up.

carpejugulum

Sovereign Palestine is the only option.
But religious and nationalist fanatics on both sides have made that very difficult.

comongethappy

wes wrote: »

I know, but honestly considering that my search turned up nothing, and I don't know which day it was, and the lack of a provided link, I have already made plenty of effort to see if the claim is true. Ultimately its up to whoever is making the claim to back it up.

I'll just start listening back through 3hrs of radio time just for you!

Believe if you wish (I doubt you will).... So its moot, you have your views, they aren't for turning.

wes

comongethappy wrote: »

I'll just start listening back through 3hrs of radio time just for you!

Believe if you wish (I doubt you will).... So its moot, you have your views, they aren't for turning.

Well, if your going to take that attitude towards a such a simple request, for a link......

I did btw go looking for it and didn't find anything, and generally its expected on here for people making claims to back them up.

comongethappy

wes wrote: »

Well, if your going to take that attitude towards a such a simple request, for a link......

Go nuts Wes....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qj9z

As I said, Wednesday or Thursday last week.... I think Thursday.

P_1

comongethappy wrote: »

Absolutely.... Makes no sense to me either.... Especially with the truck mounted rockets.
They still get nailed from time to time if there is a jet loitering around.

But its not a sound strategy.

Militarily speaking a better option would be to have a fleet of drones patrolling the skies above Gaza with a unit dedicated to monitoring the live feed. Once somebody is observed setting up a rocket then a drone can fire (preferably a non lethal) round at them to prevent the rocket from being fired in the first place.

wes

comongethappy wrote: »

Go nuts Wes....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qj9z

So I am suppose to search through a rather large archive, to prove your point. Sorry, I have better things to do.

comongethappy

wes wrote: »

I have better things to do.

I can't believe that without a link.

BlaasForRafa

Haaretz have done a pretty good analysis of the fighting in Shujaiyah based on comments from soldiers rotated out of the fighting http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.606414 As an aside, at least the IDF soldiers can give an objective, reasoned, sobering view of the actual fighting unlike the "Allah Akbar, kill the jews" rants that Hamas fighters come out with.

comongethappy

P_1 wrote: »

Militarily speaking a better option would be to have a fleet of drones patrolling the skies above Gaza with a unit dedicated to monitoring the live feed. Once somebody is observed setting up a rocket then a drone can fire (preferably a non lethal) round at them to prevent the rocket from being fired in the first place.

Drones are easily nailed by manpads though, too slow & low.

wes

comongethappy wrote: »

I can't believe that without a link.

Well, seeing as you can't provide a link to the show in question, and after searching online myself, and seeing no one else reporting this, and after searching the archive earlier myself, and still having not found anything, it is not unreasonable for me to ask for you back up your claim.

P_1

comongethappy wrote: »

Drones are easily nailed by manpads though, too slow & low.

True but it probably is worth developing one that can fly higher

BlaasForRafa

P_1 wrote: »

Militarily speaking a better option would be to have a fleet of drones patrolling the skies above Gaza with a unit dedicated to monitoring the live feed. Once somebody is observed setting up a rocket then a drone can fire (preferably a non lethal) round at them to prevent the rocket from being fired in the first place.

I think the Israelis already have something like that in place, but there are a few caveats
1: Human operators can miss things
2: Despite people saying Gaza is small, it's still an area of over 100 square miles, very hard to keep a 24/7 eye on everything

P_1

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I think the Israelis already have something like that in place, but there are a few caveats
1: Human operators can miss things
2: Despite people saying Gaza is small, it's still an area of over 100 square miles, very hard to keep a 24/7 eye on everything

True but I'd imagine that it wouldn't be the Manhattan Project to create some sort of recognizant software to help ease the burden.

john.han

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I think the Israelis already have something like that in place, but there are a few caveats
1: Human operators can miss things
2: Despite people saying Gaza is small, it's still an area of over 100 square miles, very hard to keep a 24/7 eye on everything

That'll be easier once you flatten it.

hatrickpatrick

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

I ask this sincerely. How best is Israel to deal with the rockets that are fired at it, for the sake of peace?

The root cause of the rocket fire is Israel's continued expansion into lands that never belonged to it. While the rocket fire and any other attacks against civilians are deplorable, all Israel has to do in order to gain the international community's sympathy is withdraw to its legitimate borders.
Until it does that, in my view, no military action is justified. When the reason you're being attacked is because you're committing a vile crime, you should cease to commit said crime before retaliating.

hatrickpatrick

seanaway wrote: »

This forum's point is about how Israel should/can defend itself - not about Palestinian issues - however valid they may be.

And yet, the only legitimate method of defense at this time would be to end the crimes against the Palestinians which are provoking the violence. Until then, many will not support any military action against said violence.

walshb

Where does Hamas get its massive stockpile of rockets? Ongoing supply or stored supplies?

comongethappy

walshb wrote: »

Where does Hamas get its massive stockpile of rockets? Ongoing supply or stored supplies?

I think they make them?

walshb

comongethappy wrote: »

I think they make them?

I was going to add this in.

BlaasForRafa

comongethappy wrote: »

I think they make them?

And from Iran.

seanaway

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The root cause of the rocket fire is Israel's continued expansion into lands that never belonged to it. While the rocket fire and any other attacks against civilians are deplorable, all Israel has to do in order to gain the international community's sympathy is withdraw to its legitimate borders.
Until it does that, in my view, no military action is justified. When the reason you're being attacked is because you're committing a vile crime, you should cease to commit said crime before retaliating.

I think you need to remember that Israel has these lands because they captured them from an enemy greatly superior in number. An enemy which had the destruction of Israel as its goal.
That the enemy couldn't actually put their fight where their mouth was is as responsible for Israeli 'occupation' as anything else.

A slight aside but has anyone ever wondered why the UN doesn't ask the Russians to give Finland back the territory it invaded and stole from the Finnsish people?

Oh! Maybe it's because Russia is too big and Israel so small?

GaelMise

comongethappy wrote: »

So... How does Israel defend itself?

Apparently by killing Palestinian Men, Women and Children by the hundreds.

Nodin

seanaway wrote: »

I think you need to remember that Israel has these lands because they captured them from an enemy greatly superior in number. An enemy which had the destruction of Israel as its goal.
That the enemy couldn't actually put their fight where their mouth was is as responsible for Israeli 'occupation' as anything else.

.............

It doesn't matter how they captured them, they've no right to colonise them.

seanaway

Nodin wrote: »

It doesn't matter how they captured them, they've no right to colonise them.

Of course it matters.

They wouldn't be there if it hadn't been for Arab aggression. Now the Arabs want them to hand it back without so much as a 'sorry for trying to exterminate you' so they can shell and target from a vantage point?

Get real.

Gringo180

seanaway wrote: »

I think you need to remember that Israel has these lands because they captured them from an enemy greatly superior in number. An enemy which had the destruction of Israel as its goal.
That the enemy couldn't actually put their fight where their mouth was is as responsible for Israeli 'occupation' as anything else.

So if I went to some random house with say 6 blokes living in it and I managed to fight them and beat them would that give me the right to own there house?

Pull the other one.

seanaway

Gringo180 wrote: »

So if I went to some random house with say 6 blokes living in it and I managed to fight them and beat them would that give me the right to own there house?

Pull the other one.

No. That's a poor analogy and you know it.

If your neighbours started shooting at you form their upper window and then ran and stayed away for years because you kicked tehir ass - then yes.

Gringo180

seanaway wrote: »

No. That's a poor analogy and you know it.

If your neighbours started shooting at you form their upper window and then ran and stayed away for years because you kicked tehir ass - then yes.

I wouldn't flatten the street and kill innocent people to get them. Israels policy will eventually lead to its downfall, only a fool cant see it.

seanaway

Gringo180 wrote: »

I wouldn't flatten the street and kill innocent people to get them. Israels policy will eventually lead to its downfall, only a fool cant see it.

Now you're crossing yourself into a knot.

We were talking about the lands 'occupied' by Israel.

Back to the OP question.

It's a good one especially when you read this:

The report added that IDF soldiers being treated in Israeli hospitals for injuries sustained when fighting in Gaza said they encountered 13- and 14-year-old Palestinian children running at them wearing explosives-laden suicide-bomber belts.

Gringo180

seanaway wrote: »

It's a good one especially when you read this:

The report added that IDF soldiers being treated in Israeli hospitals for injuries sustained when fighting in Gaza said they encountered 13- and 14-year-old Palestinian children running at them wearing explosives-laden suicide-bomber belts.

Put your feet in there shoes, they are under blockade, have no hope in there lives and there is a high probability that at least one family member has been killed by, who in there eyes are evil oppressors. What would you do if your family was wiped out, wife, kids, grand kids? I in no way condone suicide bombers but I can see there justification for it in these cases.