How should Israel defend itself?

For Reals

obplayer wrote: »

I quote...
'The aim of the Genocide Convention is to prevent the intentional destruction of entire human groups, and the part targeted must be significant enough to have an impact on the group as a whole'

From

The Pulse of the Middle East

It's in process. I'll run with holocaust in the interim.

jank wrote: »

They have been at it for 70 years apparently, yet the Palestinian population has increased more than 4 fold since. Worse.genocide.ever. I would ask for a refund to be honest.

Well as you seem to take the topic so lightly, there's no point, enjoy the butchering.

For Reals

obplayer wrote: »

You are right to an extent but it is a very emotive one, it should be reserved for situations which deserve it. (Especially by people who quote from the Geneva Conventions).

Yeah when the larger nations begin to lose money, it really gets serious :rolleyes:

obplayer

For Reals wrote: »

It's in process. I'll run with holocaust in the interim.

Ok, I guess I'll have to accept your definition of holocaust. All I'll add is that it seems to me to be a funny old kind of holocaust that leaves more people alive after it leaves than it found when it arrived.

MakeEmLaugh

Usjes wrote: »

Well I suspect you are trolling but on the off-chance that you are just ignorant I will bite. The way for Israel to protect itself from rocket fire is to stop commiting crimes against Palestinians whose only effective response is rocket fire.
In case you hadn't noticed Hamas had rigoroursly enforced a ceasfire which meant that Israel had perfect protection from rocket fire until the outbreak of the recent hostilities. Israel broke the terms of this ceasfire by mass arrests of Palestinians and a brutal military operation which resulted in the deaths innocent Palestinians in the Occupied West Bank. This operation was in response to the murders of 3 Israeli colonists. Rather than instigating a normal police investigation Netenyahu opted for the military option (contrast this with the investigation into the murder of Mohammed Abu Khdeir who was burnt alive in retaliation by Jewish extremists; why no brutal military operation to intern known Jewish right-wing extremists? Just a nice peaceful police investigation).

So in summary, the reason I suspect you of trolling is that I would say your question is equivalent to:
How does an on-the-run bank robber/murderer/paedophile protect himself from being continually hounded by his victims seeking retribution ?
The answer is simple, if you dont want your victims to seek redress by any means then dont commit crimes against them in the first place.

On a side note, I have a question for all apologists for the Israeli régime to ponder. You generally try to deflect blame from Israel for all the civilian deaths in Gaza by saying that it is Hamas who is most responsible for their deaths by firing rockets which they know will draw a lethal Israeli retaliation. Does the same argument not apply to the three murdered colonists? By your logic are their parents not the people most responsible for their deaths by allowing the Israeli state to use their children as human shields to try to hold the lands that they have illegaly ceased by military force ? Or is victim blaming only applied to native victims and not when the victims are colonists? I mean what parent in their right mind brings their children into a war-zone? Unlike the families confined by Israel to the Gaza ghetto the colonist families decide to move to the illegally occupied territories!

Finally, on a personal note, MakeEmLaugh, I find it particluarly sad that you frame you support for Israel in the context of their treatment of LGBT people. Would you have happily supported the atrocities of Pol Pot, Apartheid-era S.A. , <insert random vile régime>, as long as they treated the LGBT community well ? Being happy to support evil régimes as long as they treat you well makes you seem like a very sad and cowardly human being, willing to throw other minorities under the bus as long as you are safe. Really it makes you no better than those who persecute the LGBT community.

What does it have to do with treating me well?

Do you think the only reason I would oppose LGBT persecution is if I was gay myself?

seanaway

''The way for Israel to protect itself from rocket fire is to stop commiting crimes against Palestinians whose only effective response is rocket fire. ''

Not very effective judging by the way the people of the Gaza strip have lost so much.

Well done Hamas et al.

obplayer

A woman describes living in Gaza. She is not complimentary about the men there. So how do we deal with men who deliberately place women at risk of their lives?

obplayer

A retired British Colonel, Col. Richard Kemp, explains his views on the war in Gaza. I agree with him, if you do not you are welcome to explain your reasons.

glued

obplayer wrote: »

A retired British Colonel, Col. Richard Kemp, explains his views on the war in Gaza. I agree with him, if you do not you are welcome to explain your reasons.

He's wrong. The first line is pretty hilarious too. As if being a part of the British Army somehow enhances his outlook on the Middle East. The war on Gaza in 2014 was of course a large responsibility of Hamas and other Islamist militant groups but this retired colonel would be doing well to educate himself correctly on the reasons behind the war and previous attacks from Palestine preceding the war. He forgets that Israel is often the aggressor in the region. Their response is overkill and it only serves to create more young Palestinian boys who hate the state of Israel. Unlike Boko Haram in Nigeria and Cameroon these young boys have a very valid reason to pick up mortars, rockets, guns, stones and do anything they can to regain the small amount of pride their aggressive neighbour deprives these people of everyday.

Israel is making it very easy for the young generation of Palestinians to join groups such as the IJM. As the younger generation of Israel gets more moderate and the older generation, who think the likes of Netanyahu are too soft on Palestine,die out Israel will rue the choices and decisions of their fathers and grandfathers. Not once in its existence has Israel made an honest attempt at peace. They want to continue their illegal annexing of Palestinian territory at any cost.

I find it very hard to believe that anyone of sound mind can see how Israel are right. As the power in the region they should be making much more of an effort for a peaceful solution but such are the politics in Israel that even if any Israeli PM wanted to make such a concession they would be voted out by the time the ink dried on the paper.

johnnyskeleton

glued wrote: »

They want to continue their illegal annexing of Palestinian territory at any cost.

So why have they not annexed it completely yet and expelled or killed all the non Israelis in the region?

Nodin

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

So why have they not annexed it completely yet and expelled or killed all the non Israelis in the region?

Because that - done hastily - would risk alienating the US. As it is they apply slow drip ethnic cleansing, taking land here and there, driving out and expelling to other areas Palestinians etc as they go. 'Cleanse as you build' one might call it.
http://www.btselem.org/area_c/taking_over_land
http://www.btselem.org/area_c/expulsions_of_communities


This can be done by other means than main force eg
http://www.btselem.org/jerusalem/social_security
http://www.btselem.org/jerusalem/revocation_of_residency
http://www.btselem.org/jerusalem/discriminating_policy
make life so harsh and impossible for people that they leave.

johnnyskeleton

Nodin wrote: »

Because that - done hastily - would risk alienating the US. As it is they apply slow drip ethnic cleansing, taking land here and there, driving out and expelling to other areas Palestinians etc as they go. 'Cleanse as you build' one might call it.
http://www.btselem.org/area_c/taking_over_land
http://www.btselem.org/area_c/expulsions_of_communities


This can be done by other means than main force eg
http://www.btselem.org/jerusalem/social_security
http://www.btselem.org/jerusalem/revocation_of_residency
http://www.btselem.org/jerusalem/discriminating_policy
make life so harsh and impossible for people that they leave.

Which is why they unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005 and havemt sought to physically occupy land there since? Surely if Israel were so bad the usa wouldve already broken ties with them? I also think a lot of people overestimate the significance of us monetary and political support

Nodin

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Which is why they unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005 and havemt sought to physically occupy land there since? Surely if Israel were so bad the usa wouldve already broken ties with them? I also think a lot of people overestimate the significance of us monetary and political support

Being shielded by the last super power means safety from UN backed sanctions, prevents harsh treatment by the EU - I'd suggest you underestimate it.

The US supported Apartheid South Africa and Ian Smith's Rhodesia for many years, the 80's saw some remarkably nasty alliances in Latin America, both far harder 'sells' than Israel. I'm not sure why you mean by "If Israel were so bad". Do you doubt that a program of colonisation is ongoing?

Gaza only held 8,000 settlers. Sharon deemed the resources required to maintain them better spent elsewhere, and he could gain a diplomatic coup by withdrawing unilaterally.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/3720176.stm

Brian Shanahan

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

So why have they not annexed it completely yet and expelled or killed all the non Israelis in the region?

For the same reason the Nazis kept the General Government in south-east Poland. It is a lot easier to demonise and later get rid of the untermenschen if you can propogandize them as lawless savages.

obplayer

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

For the same reason the Nazis kept the General Government in south-east Poland. It is a lot easier to demonise and later get rid of the untermenschen if you can propogandize them as lawless savages.

Sorry, as much as I admire your views and posts on other subjects I have to ask do you really believe that Israel, with it's people's history of a genuine holocaust, would do this?. "get rid of the untermenschen ". Really? I am neither Jewish nor Israeli but I find it impossible to believe that a country with the holocaust (Yad Vashem http://www.yadvashem.org/) museum would allow this to be a part of their government policy. I hope you are using hyperbole and have simply over-stepped the mark.

wes

obplayer wrote: »

Sorry, as much as I admire your views and posts on other subjects I have to ask do you really believe that Israel, with it's people's history of a genuine holocaust, would do this?. "get rid of the untermenschen ". Really? I am neither Jewish nor Israeli but I find it impossible to believe that a country with the holocaust (Yad Vashem http://www.yadvashem.org/) museum would allow this to be a part of their government policy.

Its also a country where someone built a "Museum of Tolerance" over ancient Muslim graves.

The existence of Yad Vashem, didn't stop Israel from supporting the racist Apartheid regime in South Africa. Didn't stop the most recent slaughter in Gaza either. I could keep going on and on, but the existence of Yad Vashem, hasn't stopped settlement expansion either.

Its a nation founded by ethnic cleansing Palestinians, for the express purpose of setting up a "Jewish" state.

Now, I would not have used the same language myself, but the fact is that Zionists have always viewed Palestinians poorly (even before any conflict existed btw), and at best as obstacles to be removed so as to achieve there own aims of a "Jewish" state. Sure, there are Zionists who even deny Palestinians exist at all to this day. You will even see people say exactly that on threads on here from time to time.

seanaway

wes wrote: »

Its a nation founded by ethnic cleansing Palestinians, for the express purpose of setting up a "Jewish" state.

Think you forget the 1947 UN mandate going back to the foundation. Perhaps you are also forgetting the Arab plan to destroy said nation immediately - without success as usual.

gladrags

' Perhaps you are also forgetting the Arab plan to destroy said nation immediately - without success as usual"

Typical response,and what exactly did Israel do in Palestine recently?

With a lot of success.

The World was watching,while Israel butchered thousands,and the UN was ignored.

Nethanyahu is a tyrant,he is no better than the isis thugs.

wes

seanaway wrote: »

Think you forget the 1947 UN mandate going back to the foundation.

The Palestinian mandate existed long before 1947. I take it your referring to UN general assembly resolution 181. Well, I haven't forgotten it all. If you read the resolution, there is no languages allowing the expulsion of Palestinians.

Secondly, General Assembly resolutions are non-binding to begin with, and Zionists, never adhered to it in anyways, what with the ethnic cleansing and you know grabbing land outside the proposed borders. It really is amazing that you bring this up at all. It was a non-binding resolution, that Zionists ignored themselves, and then there is the fact of the various later binding security council resolutions that Israel is ignoring to this day. Its a laughable thing for you to even bring this up at all.

It is interesting to note who voted in favor of it btw, mostly western (a lot of them with colonies) nations who decided it was totally ok to give someone elses land away to compensate for crimes committed by Nazi Germany. Surely if anyone should have given up some land it should have been the perpetrators of the Holocaust and not Palestinians, who did not murder 6 million Jews.

seanaway wrote: »

Perhaps you are also forgetting the Arab plan to destroy said nation immediately - without success as usual.

Nice of you to leave the fact that before any Arab armies invaded, Zionists had already started expelling Palestinians, and you know grabbing more land outside there borders. If the Arabs armies hadn't invaded, the Palestinians would have likely been completely expelled, and many more would have murdered.

Justin1982

Oh give it a rest with the UN resolutions. Pointless waffle anything to do with the UN in Palestinian/Israeli conflict.

Bottom line is that Israeli's/Jews/Zionists wanted to have their own state, they ended up flooding into Palestine and forcefully set up Israel. It wasn't necessarily the most legitimate move but it happened and won't be reversed. One could spend all day arguing that it was Palestinian land they took and one could argue all day that it was Jewish land that the Romans/Arabs took. All pointless.

Israel exists. Israel will defend itself and is defending it. Israel has expanded its borders over time and Palestine probably won't get it all back, no more than Ireland will get back the 6 counties. Palestinians will have to suck it up same as the Irish people like myself have to suck up the loss of the 6 counties, make peace and get on with life.

Stop firing missiles into Israel, stop sending suicide bombers into Israel, stop talking about the destruction of Israel and wiping out the Jews and I think you will see a different Israel emerge even with radical Zionist elements existing in Israel and ex military swelling the ranks of Israeli political classes. The Israeli hard line stems from a real perceived threat to their existence same as the protestant hard line stemmed from a perceived threat to their existence. Israeli's the same as the Protestants of Northern Ireland can act fairly given the right circumstances.

Israel has a fairly sophisticated legal system and the Jews are not particularly renowned for their stupidity, quiet the opposite.

Nodin

Justin1982 wrote: »

.....................
Stop firing missiles into Israel, stop sending suicide bombers into Israel, stop talking about the destruction of Israel and wiping out the Jews and I think you will see a different Israel emerge even with radical Zionist elements existing in Israel and ex military swelling the ranks of Israeli political classes. The Israeli hard line stems from a real perceived threat to their existence same as the protestant hard line stemmed from a perceived threat to their existence. Israeli's the same as the Protestants of Northern Ireland can act fairly given the right circumstances.

...............

This kind of thing has been discredited earlier in the thread, and I see no need to go over it again.

jank

Nodin wrote: »

This kind of thing has been discredited earlier in the thread, and I see no need to go over it again.

It is a valid point. Israel has enemies on all sides that they see as an existential threat. Firing homemade rockets into it will only make things worse.

obplayer

Nodin wrote: »

This kind of thing has been discredited earlier in the thread, and I see no need to go over it again.

Sorry but it hasn't been discredited, it has been argued about.

Nodin

jank wrote: »

It is a valid point. Israel has enemies on all sides that they see as an existential threat. Firing homemade rockets into it will only make things worse.

Obplayer wrote:

Sorry but it hasn't been discredited, it has been argued about.

Israel faces no threat from Jordan or Egypt.

It's odd that a country that thinks its under threat from all sides aids civilian building construction outside its territory in what would be a potential war zone. One might draw the conclusion that the claims and the reality are rather different.

The notion 'if the Palestinians stop Israel will...' leans on the assumption that Israel's actions are in reaction to those of the Palestinians. This turns a blind eye to Israel's desire for land in the West Bank and it's drive to secure Arab East Jerusalem. Israel is colonising these areas and suppressing the population in order to do so. This is an independently operating aggressive act and agenda that predates Hamas and has been on-going for 47 years. The idea that Israel will change course in the face of Palestinian non-violence has been exposed by its behaviour in the West Bank, and is quite frankly laughable.

jank

Nodin wrote: »

Israel faces no threat from Jordan or Egypt.

Correct, after beating them numerous times they are wise to not lead their armies to another drubbing. Of course with the Arab Spring turing into an Arab Winter the Israelis have a right to be protective of their borders.

Nodin wrote: »

It's odd that a country that thinks its under threat from all sides aids civilian building construction outside its territory in what would be a potential war zone. One might draw the conclusion that the claims and the reality are rather different.

Are you saying that Israel is not under any threat?

For Reals

Justin1982 wrote: »

Bottom line is that Israeli's/Jews/Zionists wanted to have their own state, they ended up flooding into Palestine and forcefully set up Israel. It wasn't necessarily the most legitimate move but it happened and won't be reversed. One could spend all day arguing that it was Palestinian land they took and one could argue all day that it was Jewish land that the Romans/Arabs took. All pointless.

You're using 'took' a lot there, you should put in a few 'are taking'.
Sadly, had they remained in the initial borders the world probably would have forgotten about it.

Justin1982 wrote: »

Israel exists. Israel will defend itself and is defending it. Israel has expanded its borders over time and Palestine probably won't get it all back, no more than Ireland will get back the 6 counties. Palestinians will have to suck it up same as the Irish people like myself have to suck up the loss of the 6 counties, make peace and get on with life.

How can Israel be defending itself when it is the aggressor?
Let me know your address, seems I can come over with a few pals and take a few rooms in your house and you'll suck it up in the interest of peace.

Justin1982 wrote: »

Stop firing missiles into Israel, stop sending suicide bombers into Israel, stop talking about the destruction of Israel and wiping out the Jews and I think you will see a different Israel emerge even with radical Zionist elements existing in Israel and ex military swelling the ranks of Israeli political classes. The Israeli hard line stems from a real perceived threat to their existence same as the protestant hard line stemmed from a perceived threat to their existence. Israeli's the same as the Protestants of Northern Ireland can act fairly given the right circumstances.

Please stop comparing the North Protestants to the Israeli's. So many holes. Aside from the initial gerrymandering I don't believe any Orange lodge are invading the south and expanding the border every few weeks.

Nodin

jank wrote: »

Correct, after beating them numerous times they are wise to not lead their armies to another drubbing. Of course with the Arab Spring turing into an Arab Winter the Israelis have a right to be protective of their borders.?

Rather an odd reply, that seems to weave its way around the point raised in the post its replying to.

Nobody objects overly to Israel defending it's actual borders. The problem is what it does outside them.

jank wrote: »

Are you saying that Israel is not under any threat?

Not in any "existential" manner. It's too powerful. It may face losses from asymmetric warfare, but its not going to be overrun.

DarkyHughes

Nodin wrote: »

Rather an odd reply, that seems to weave its way around the point raised in the post its replying to.

Nobody objects overly to Israel defending it's actual borders. The problem is what it does outside them.



Not in any "existential" manner. It's too powerful. It may face losses from asymmetric warfare, but its not going to be overrun.

Exactly. They only face a threat when their soldiers occupy places they shouldn't be in or settlers move on to land they aren't allowed to live on.

The Hamas upgraded fireworks are pretty useless against such a powerful state. I'm not even sure if they've even killed anybody inside Israel itself.

BlaasForRafa

DarkyHughes wrote: »

The Hamas upgraded fireworks are pretty useless against such a powerful state. I'm not even sure if they've even killed anybody inside Israel itself.

A small bit of research would show you that they have.

And I'd hardly call katyusha rockets and Iranian-supplied missiles "fireworks"

Brian Shanahan

Justin1982 wrote: »

Bottom line is that Israeli's/Jews/Zionists wanted to have their own state, they ended up flooding into Palestine and forcefully set up Israel. It wasn't necessarily the most legitimate move but it happened and won't be reversed. One could spend all day arguing that it was Palestinian land they took and one could argue all day that it was Jewish land that the Romans/Arabs took. All pointless.

You're seriously arguing that Israel has rights to Palestinian territory based on a book of dubious reliability written 2,500 years ago, and a minor kingdom on the edges of the Fertile crescent which lasted at most a couple of hundred years?

Fine then, these should be the soverign borders of Ireland, using the same messed up criteria as yours:


Edit, image taken from here, and darker green shade expanded over lighter green shade by myself

obplayer

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

You're seriously arguing that Israel has rights to Palestinian territory based on a book of dubious reliability written 2,500 years ago, and a minor kingdom on the edges of the Fertile crescent which lasted at most a couple of hundred years?

Fine then, these should be the soverign borders of Ireland, using the same messed up criteria as yours:


Edit, image taken from here, and darker green shade expanded over lighter green shade by myself

No he is saying that however dubious the legitimacy of what happened 70 years ago is, it did happen and we, and the Palestinians, have to live with it. Israel is not going away and any approach to the problem that does not accept that is pointless.

Nodin

obplayer wrote: »

No he is saying that however dubious the legitimacy of what happened 70 years ago is, it did happen and we, and the Palestinians, have to live with it. Israel is not going away and any approach to the problem that does not accept that is pointless.

You'll find it's whats going on at the moment that's the problem.

jank

Nodin wrote: »

Rather an odd reply, that seems to weave its way around the point raised in the post its replying to.

Nobody objects overly to Israel defending it's actual borders. The problem is what it does outside them.

They defended their borders during the latest Gaza conflict by stopping the launching of thousands of rockets and destroying tunnels. Glad you didn't have a problem with this.

Nodin wrote: »

Not in any "existential" manner. It's too powerful. It may face losses from asymmetric warfare, but its not going to be overrun.

Correct, Israel doesn't take any crap from anyone. Its a great strength of theirs but also a weakness. However, with the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah on their borders and the likes of IS growing in stature they know they have the weapons, the capability and most importantly the will to defend their own citizens from these maniacs.

Gringo180

jank wrote: »

They defended their borders during the latest Gaza conflict by stopping the launching of thousands of rockets and destroying tunnels. Glad you didn't have a problem with this.

And why do they have to defend there borders? Would it be because there illegally occupying another peoples land?

You have to ask yourself why do Hamas only launch homemade rockets into one of there neighbours and not the other one (Egypt)??

Nodin

jank wrote: »

......................

They defended their borders during the latest Gaza conflict by stopping the launching of thousands of rockets and destroying tunnels. Glad you didn't have a problem with this..

A simplification so extreme its nonsensical.

jank wrote: »

......................
Correct, Israel doesn't take any crap from anyone. Its a great strength of theirs but also a weakness. However, with the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah on their borders and the likes of IS growing in stature they know they have the weapons, the capability and most importantly the will to defend their own citizens from these maniacs.

A chest thumping bit of provocation that avoids addressing the real issues.

Conas

jank wrote: »

Correct, Israel doesn't take any crap from anyone. Its a great strength of theirs but also a weakness. However, with the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah on their borders and the likes of IS growing in stature they know they have the weapons, the capability and most importantly the will to defend their own citizens from these maniacs.

What a load of rubbish. Hamas doesn't have an Army, Navy or Airforce. It's like Mike Tyson in his prime fighting Mickey Mouse. These are no contests in military terms.

Israel won't have to ever fight ISIS. They'll get the Americans do the fighting for them, or else just drop one of their 300 nukes that they have stashed. They have never joined the coalition in the two Iraq Wars, despite their strong military, and warmongering rhetoric. Instead sat back and watched from the sidelines. Israel's goal is expansion into the land of the Greater Israel which consumes Iraq, Syria, Jordon, etc. Everything that's happening out there now is just perfect for them. Only the dumb thick Goyim can't see through this. I find it hilarious though, most of us Goy with a brain have seen through all this deception long ago.

Nodin

Conas wrote: »

What a load of rubbish. Hamas doesn't have an Army, Navy or Airforce. It's like Mike Tyson in his prime fighting Mickey Mouse. These are no contests in military terms.

Israel won't have to ever fight ISIS. They'll get the Americans do the fighting for them, or else just drop one of their 300 nukes that they have stashed. They have never joined the coalition in the two Iraq Wars, despite their strong military, and warmongering rhetoric. Instead sat back and watched from the sidelines. Israel's goal is expansion into the land of the Greater Israel which consumes Iraq, Syria, Jordon, etc. Everything that's happening out there now is just perfect for them. Only the dumb thick Goyim can't see through this. I find it hilarious though, most of us Goy with a brain have seen through all this deception long ago.

I know of no factual evidence for that claim.

jank

Nodin wrote: »

A simplification so extreme its nonsensical.

Not at all, they defended their borders against rocket attacks, an action that you said is legitimate.

Nodin wrote: »

A chest thumping bit of provocation that avoids addressing the real issues.

Just illustrating that if one lived across the border from a people that was hell bent on genocide I imagine one would have a rather different perspective than one that lives in a safe suburb in Dublin.

Nodin

jank wrote: »

Not at all, they defended their borders against rocket attacks, an action that you said is legitimate. .

...which ignores why the rocket attacks took place and the level of the response.

jank wrote: »

Just illustrating that if one lived across the border from a people that was hell bent on genocide I imagine one would have a rather different perspective than one that lives in a safe suburb in Dublin.

Hysterical nonsense which again distracts from the real issues - ie Israeli expansion in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem.

Memnoch

jank wrote: »

Not at all, they defended their borders against rocket attacks, an action that you said is legitimate.



Just illustrating that if one lived across the border from a people that was hell bent on genocide I imagine one would have a rather different perspective than one that lives in a safe suburb in Dublin.

Let's say a neighbourhood kid takes a swipe at me. He's barely half my size, and his ability to hurt me is limited at best. But in response, instead of simply reporting him to his parents, or even just holding him at arms length, or he'll even giving him a little slap, I decide to go ahead and shoot him in the head.

There is such a thing as proportionality. Israel has used the rocket attacks as an excuse to conquer land and make life as difficult for the Palestinian people as possible. They have engaged in collective punishment of a civilian population which is a heinous war crime and you will find most fair minded people are rightly incensed by this.

jank

Nodin wrote: »

...which ignores why the rocket attacks took place and the level of the response.




Hysterical nonsense which again distracts from the real issues - ie Israeli expansion in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem.

a)Violence is justified I see :rolleyes:
b)Hamas want to kill all Jews, see their mandate.

Gringo180

jank wrote: »

b)Hamas want to kill all Jews, see their mandate.

Even if that was true, what is there motivation to kill all Jews? You don't wake up one day and decide you want to slaughter and entire religion for no apparent reason.

Every action has a reaction, and its the action of the Israeli state since the 1940s that has created groups like Hamas.

jank

Gringo180 wrote: »

Even if that was true, what is there motivation to kill all Jews? You don't wake up one day and decide you want to slaughter and entire religion for no apparent reason.

Every action has a reaction, and its the action of the Israeli state since the 1940s that has created groups like Hamas.

Yes, Jews are to blame much like gays are to blame for being killed in Muslim countries for being gay and women are to blame for being raped by men, maybe for wearing a short dress!

And it is true.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/douglas-murray/2014/05/hamas-tv-teaches-children-to-kill-all-jews/

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised.

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

Gringo180

jank wrote: »

Yes, Jews are to blame much like gays are to blame for being killed in Muslim countries for being gay and women are to blame for being raped by men, maybe for wearing a short dress!

Whatever happens in other muslim countries has nothing got to do with the thousands of innocent Palestinians being occupied and decimated at the hands of the Israeli's. Why cant you answer the questions put to you instead of wavering onto a different subject which has **** all to do with the topic at hand??

Why does Hamas exist? Why do they launch rockets into Israel?

jank

Gringo180 wrote: »

Why does Hamas exist? Why do they launch rockets into Israel?

Hamas is a terrorist organisation that is recognised as such by the international community (including the EU) who's aim is the destruction of Israel. Launching rockets into Israel is part of this strategy albeit poor one as many are also Islamists who believe in 99 virgins and all that.

All, I see here is an attempt to legitimise their actions by repeatedly waving your arms and saying "Israel are bad, Israel are bad..."
Why do IS exist and does that excuse their grotesque behaviour?

Nodin

jank wrote: »

a)Violence is justified I see .

Of course it is. You have no problem with it yourself.

jank wrote: »

b)Hamas want to kill all Jews, see their mandate.

And back to debunked claims in order to avoid the real issues and derail the thread.

Jank wrote:

Why do IS exist and does that excuse their grotesque behaviour?

What relevance do IS have?

jank

Nodin wrote: »

And back to debunked claims in order to avoid the real issues and derail the thread.

Just because you use the word debunked doesn't mean that its not true. The Hamas charter is pretty clear and apologists like yourself would love for it to just go away.

Happy reading and happy 'debunking'
http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/documents/charter.html?chocaid=397

Hint: Search for the word Jew and see what it says about them.

Nodin

jank wrote: »

Just because you use the word debunked doesn't mean that its not true. The Hamas charter is pretty clear and apologists like yourself would love for it to just go away.
............

That's a rabbit hole I don't care to go down.

If you can explain to me the relevance of IS, I'd discuss that with you however, as it would be news to me.

At any stage are you going to address Israeli colonialism in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem?

Memnoch

jank wrote: »

Hamas is a terrorist organisation that is recognised as such by the international community (including the EU) who's aim is the destruction of Israel. Launching rockets into Israel is part of this strategy albeit poor one as many are also Islamists who believe in 99 virgins and all that.

All, I see here is an attempt to legitimise their actions by repeatedly waving your arms and saying "Israel are bad, Israel are bad..."
Why do IS exist and does that excuse their grotesque behaviour?

The actions of the Israeli government are just as reprehensible as that of hamas (a grotesque terrorist organisation). They are just much better at PR, have better technology and resources, and complete impunity to act without any effective accountability for their despicable and criminal behaviour.

P.S. This is in no way to suggest that Hamas's actions are in any way justifiable. Rather it is to say that Israel's behaviour is equally unjustifiable.

alastair

jank wrote: »

Just because you use the word debunked doesn't mean that its not true. The Hamas charter is pretty clear and apologists like yourself would love for it to just go away.

Happy reading and happy 'debunking'
http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/documents/charter.html?chocaid=397

Hint: Search for the word Jew and see what it says about them.

I've read the charter in full. It doesn't say that all Jews should be killed.

Is that a debunking, or just simple written comprehension?

Conas

jank wrote: »

Yes, Jews are to blame much like gays are to blame for being killed in Muslim countries for being gay and women are to blame for being raped by men, maybe for wearing a short dress!

A Jew boy goes home and tells his parents he's Gay he won't be in the family long and you know it too. Much like the Jews are pushing all this immigration to Europe and America, yet they want Israel to be a Jew only state. As they threw out the Africans a few years back who sought refuge there.

Israel's warmongering against their Arab neighbours is relentless. Yet when there is a coalition of willing being put together, and boots on the ground are required they run and hide.

Mod:

Banned.