How should Israel defend itself?

alastair

Conas wrote: »

A Jew boy goes home and tells his parents he's Gay he won't be in the family long and you know it too. Much like the Jews are pushing all this immigration to Europe and America, yet they want Israel to be a Jew only state. As they threw out the Africans a few years back who sought refuge there.

Israel's warmongering against their Arab neighbours is relentless. Yet when there is a coalition of willing being put together, and boots on the ground are required they run and hide.

I think you're a little confused in your broad tirade there. They're relentless warmongers who run and hide?

Gays fare better in Jewish communities than Arab ones, even taking account the undoubted homophobia of Orthodox communities.

Brian Shanahan

alastair wrote: »

I've read the charter in full. It doesn't say that all Jews should be killed.

Is that a debunking, or just simple written comprehension?

The other thing about the "Hamas charter" you've got to remember is that it was drawn up by a cleric who, while sharing some of Hamas' beliefs, was nevera member, and Hamas never adopted it, despite some attempt by factions within to do so. Using the "charter" to malign Hamas is stooping as low as bringing up the Protocols of the Elders of Zion to malign Jews.

Oh, and if Israel were so worried about Hamas why did the state allow the Mossad to create them? Hamas was set up using Israeli state funding to split the then secular PLO.

SeanW

Conas wrote: »

A Jew boy goes home and tells his parents he's Gay he won't be in the family long and you know it too.

On average, he'd fare much better than in a Muslim family I would wager can state with near certainty.

Much like the Jews are pushing all this immigration to Europe and America, yet they want Israel to be a Jew only state.

Seriously where are you getting this from? Stormfront?

Firstly, we don't need Jews to push immigration and multiculturalism on our peoples, we're unfortunately doing a very good job of that ourselves. :mad: Of course despite all the anti-Semitic conspiracy theories I've read about Jews pushing multiculturalism on Europe, none of them have every explained how destroying Europe will help Israel or Zionism or anyone else for that matter.

I suggest you start by looking at the Demographics of Israel. Israel is only about 75% Jewish, with ~20% being Israeli-Arabs (full citizens of Israel) and the balance being mostly Druze. As that 75% number has been falling over the years, it's a reasonble guess that Israel will cease to be a Jewish state eventually.

As they threw out the Africans a few years back who sought refuge there.

Which Africans are these? You wouldn't happen to be referring to the Beta Israel community by any chance?

Your claim that Israel "threw out the Africans" would come as a major surprise to Pnina Tamano-Shata, a member of the Beta Israel (Ethiopian Jewish) community and a MK in the Israeli parliament.

Israel's warmongering against their Arab neighbours is relentless. Yet when there is a coalition of willing being put together, and boots on the ground are required they run and hide.

There is not a shred of evidence that Israel seeks anything other than the territory it claims. I exclude of course the widespread propoganda that Jews REALLY want to drink Muslim/Christian childrens blood with the Matzos and steal their eyes.

As to Israel not joining a "coalition of the willing" we both know that not only does Israel have its own problems, but that the presence of Israeli troops in, for example, Muslim countries would incite so much anger among the locals as to doom any such mission.

jank

Nodin wrote: »

That's a rabbit hole I don't care to go down.

Why so? Has the Hamas leadership changed its mandate lately? They certainly have no made an effort to distance themselves from such rhetoric.

Nodin

jank wrote: »

Why so? Has the Hamas leadership changed its mandate lately? They certainly have no made an effort to distance themselves from such rhetoric.

You're sure on that now?

Going to talk about Israeli expansionism over the last half century any time soon? Or is it going to be "Hamas, Hamas, Hamas" for the foreseeable future?

porsche959

Just breaking: UK MPs have voted 274 to 12 in favour of recognising state of Palestine.

jank

Nodin wrote: »

You're sure on that now?

Israel are well able to defend themsleves, no need for me to add to that. However, it is interesting apologists for Hamas never factor in their rabid anti-antisemitism into the overall equation

Memnoch

jank wrote: »

Israel are well able to defend themsleves, no need for me to add to that. However, it is interesting apologists for Hamas never factor in their rabid anti-antisemitism into the overall equation

Who and how many people here have apologised for or defended Hamas?

Like the IDF you are happy to use Hamas, however, to deflect the discussion away from Israeli conquest of land and collective punishment of a civilian population, topics you routinely run away from showing you have absolutely no defence or argument to make.

DarkyHughes

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

A small bit of research would show you that they have.

And I'd hardly call katyusha rockets and Iranian-supplied missiles "fireworks"

I had done research I forget what his name was but some professor described the so called rockets Hamas were using as upgraded fireworks.

How are Hamas supplied with these Iranian-supplied missiles seen as israel controls the airspace around, Gaza, the sea around it, have military all around it & now the Egypt President (military dictator) have closed the tunnels from Egypt to Gaza.

There's a real simple way to end this conflict, war, massacre, - Israel stop building on the West bank, remove the settlers there & lift the blockade on on Gaza & create a state of Palestine. That was the original plan in the first place 70 years ago. To have a Zionist state & Palestinian state.

porsche959

porsche959 wrote: »

Just breaking: UK MPs have voted 274 to 12 in favour of recognising state of Palestine.

Debate here:

Includes Churchill's grandson Nick Soames speaking in favour, saying Israel has not complied with Balfour Declaration.

@ 27:42, Richard Ottaway Conservative MP speaks movingly of his support for Israel over many decades and also what he sees as its betrayal of its supporters (by invading Gaza) and says "if it {Israel} is losing people like me, it is going to be losing a lot of people".

Link to Hansard:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201415/cmhansrd/cm141013/debtext/141013-0002.htm

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201415/cmhansrd/cm141013/debtext/141013-0003.htm

Palmach

DarkyHughes wrote: »

That was the original plan in the first place 70 years ago. To have a Zionist state & Palestinian state.

And who rejected that plan and every subsequent plan? It's a one pointer.

seanaway

ANyone stlill saying Hamas don't use children as shields?

http://www.france24.com/en/20140805-exclusive-video-hamas-rocket-launching-pad-near-gaza-homes-un-building/

Areyouwell

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

How should Israel defend itself?

Acting like a civilised democracy instead of pretending to be one would be nice. Respecting the UN, its charters and its members. Instead of targeting them and murdering them would be equally nice. Maybe ending their bloodlust for taking the lives of so many innocent Palestinian children. And probably most important of all, if they could hack out the cancerous hate filled tumour of Zionism from their State. Their country, the region and the world would be a safer, happier place.

MrHogan35

No nation has ever got their freedom from begging to the UN or Anybody the only thing the Jews understand is the Gun
or Rocket just like the Criminals in the Dail the Lowlife Arab regimes are the Reason Israel Still Excists the Jews in Israel
do what they do because the Sisi,s and the King Hussein of the world in Egypt & Jordan are worse than any Fanatical Hilltop
Settler jew.

How can 5.7 Jews beat Nearly 400 million Arabs the Reason is the Arab Regimes are Armed Funded and Trained by the West
to keep the Arab populations in Order the Very same reason why the British let a Phony ''Republic of Ireland'' be Born we are
still ruled by the british and their laws only the Flag is Different the criminals in the Dail are more against a united Ireland
than the British are themselves just like the Arab regimes are more Zionist than the Jews now the west is once again trying
to Keep their Phony Invisible Boarders Intact once again.

seanaway

MrHogan35 wrote: »

No nation has ever got their freedom from begging to the UN or Anybody the only thing the Jews understand is the Gun
or Rocket just like the Criminals in the Dail the Lowlife Arab regimes are the Reason Israel Still Excists the Jews in Israel
do what they do because the Sisi,s and the King Hussein of the world in Egypt & Jordan are worse than any Fanatical Hilltop
Settler jew.

How can 5.7 Jews beat Nearly 400 million Arabs the Reason is the Arab Regimes are Armed Funded and Trained by the West
to keep the Arab populations in Order the Very same reason why the British let a Phony ''Republic of Ireland'' be Born we are
still ruled by the british and their laws only the Flag is Different the criminals in the Dail are more against a united Ireland
than the British are themselves just like the Arab regimes are more Zionist than the Jews now the west is once again trying
to Keep their Phony Invisible Boarders Intact once again.

Any chance you could rephrase any of that so it is intelligible to others? Not being smart but that is a rant of 1st class proportions and I can't decide whetehr I agree/disagree/ or am neutral to your views.

seanaway

Areyouwell wrote: »

Acting like a civilised democracy instead of pretending to be one would be nice. Respecting the UN, its charters and its members. Instead of targeting them and murdering them would be equally nice. Maybe ending their bloodlust for taking the lives of so many innocent Palestinian children. And probably most important of all, if they could hack out the cancerous hate filled tumour of Zionism from their State. Their country, the region and the world would be a safer, happier place.

You mean like these guys??

http://www.france24.com/en/20140805-...s-un-building/

SeanW

seanaway wrote: »

Any chance you could rephrase any of that so it is intelligible to others? Not being smart but that is a rant of 1st class proportions and I can't decide whetehr I agree/disagree/ or am neutral to your views.

I think I can translate that into English. Maybe.

MrHogan35Paraphrasing wrote:

The "Jews" (i.e. not Zionists, Jews) are evil conquerers that only understand force used against them (which necessarily is always defensive).

The only reason Israel still exists and Jews still live in the holy land is because the horrible evil Arab dictators are more Zionistic than the Jew themselves and they are trained by the West (another evil entity) to keep their people down.

This is somehow connected to the Republic of Ireland which is totally illegitimate, and is a vassal of the United Kingdom which REALLY governs our affairs even though the 26 counties are a totally separate entity with a totally different statue book. The "criminals" in the Dail can be described as such because they do not seek a 32 county Ireland.

Which has something, somehow to do with evil Jews

Needless to say I disagree with pretty much everything there.

[MOD]As a general rule, FYP-style posting is actionable - in this case, the complete paraphrase is acceptable, since it could equally well have been posted as an unquoted paraphrase, and that it is a paraphrase is made abundantly clear.[/MOD]

Gringo180

Al Aqsa mosque has been closed by the Zionists.

seanaway

MrHogan35 wrote: »

No nation has ever got their freedom from begging to the UN or Anybody the only thing the Jews understand is the Gun
or Rocket just like the Criminals in the Dail the Lowlife Arab regimes are the Reason Israel Still Excists the Jews in Israel
do what they do because the Sisi,s and the King Hussein of the world in Egypt & Jordan are worse than any Fanatical Hilltop
Settler jew.

How can 5.7 Jews beat Nearly 400 million Arabs the Reason is the Arab Regimes are Armed Funded and Trained by the West
to keep the Arab populations in Order the Very same reason why the British let a Phony ''Republic of Ireland'' be Born we are
still ruled by the british and their laws only the Flag is Different the criminals in the Dail are more against a united Ireland
than the British are themselves just like the Arab regimes are more Zionist than the Jews now the west is once again trying
to Keep their Phony Invisible Boarders Intact once again.

I have decided to admire this stance. Not because I agree with any of it but because it is the first time I have ever come across anyone who can link Arab,Israeli, Irish, Western and UK history,policies, and politics and be against ALL of them in the one go.

The only thing I don't understand is why the Russians have been left out?

The Russians armed many of the Arab states during the cold war. Many of these countries still have some Russian arms. Iraq had Russian weapons during the ill-fated invasion of Kuwait and still had them when Saddam was overthrown.

Nodin

One way Israel might avoid 'defending' itself is this sort of thing

"Israel has faced strong criticism at the UN Security Council over plans to build homes in occupied East Jerusalem.

UN political chief Jeffrey Feltman said that the settlements would raise "grave doubts" about Israel's plans for durable peace with Palestinians.

The meeting was called after the Israeli PM's office ordered plans for over 1,000 new units to be advanced."
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29801841

Gringo180

Nodin wrote: »

One way Israel might avoid 'defending' itself is this sort of thing

"Israel has faced strong criticism at the UN Security Council over plans to build homes in occupied East Jerusalem.

UN political chief Jeffrey Feltman said that the settlements would raise "grave doubts" about Israel's plans for durable peace with Palestinians.

The meeting was called after the Israeli PM's office ordered plans for over 1,000 new units to be advanced."
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29801841

And yet you will still have people on defending the zionist filth. Madness.

Brian Shanahan

seanaway wrote: »

You mean like these guys??

http://www.france24.com/en/20140805-...s-un-building/

Mossad propoganda pieces don't carry much credibility.

seanaway

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Mossad propoganda pieces don't carry much credibility.

Alas, when people claim the old 'conspiracy' stuff it undermines their own arguement.

So, France24 is a Mossad agency yeah?

Brian Shanahan

seanaway wrote: »

So, France24 is a Mossad agency yeah?

No, but like most news outlets for the last twenty years they uncritically shovel out whatever propoganda comes to them from the "right" sources, and the Mossad are very good at developing the "right" sources for western news agencies.

The fact of the matter is that France24 and most other news outlets are too strapped for cash, people, intelligence and too tied to the whims of their corporate owners to spot even obvious Aprils Fools jokes, never mind the sophisticated false flag operations that the Mossad carries out on a regular basis. Of course their blindness is helped by their deep reluctance to speak to anyone who is willing to disagree with the dominant narrative (which in the case of Palestine is "the poor helpless Jews are being targetted by the barbarian blood sucking, baby killing Muslims who are all sand-n****r towel heads and totally uncivilisable) in the media no matter how much evidence there is to the contrary.

poteen o hooley

The problem is not Israel. The problem is America.
Since the body politic in the US is bought out by the corporate sector, itself dominated by a mix of ultra right 'christian' fundamentalists and fascist right wing libertarians, Israel can behave with impunity in Israel/Palestine.

There is a huge politico-social-economic crisis in America where, laughably in the name of 'freedom', extremes of all sorts get huge traction, and now represents nothing like the sort of liberal tolerant state envisioned by its founding fathers.

Given the extreme nature of the popular political discourse it is impossible to see this problem working its way out through some sort of moderate evolution.
It looks as if a huge disaster will be the only thing that forces realism and sense.

So into the longer term, the best defence for Israel is to make peace with its neighbours. This won't happen until America wakes up from the national psychosis it is suffering and equally confronts the Israeli fascism.