Storage Heaters - recommendations, please...

Dinarius

I want to replace a couple of 20yr+ old storage heaters in an apartment on the basis that the technology must have improved considerably.

My plan is to put a standard heater in the hall, and a combination heater (storage plus convection) in the living-room.

I would be grateful for recommendations as to makes and models. Dimplex seem to get a lot of good press. Any others?

Thanks.

D.

2011

Dinarius wrote: »

I want to replace a couple of 20yr+ old storage heaters in an apartment on the basis that the technology must have improved considerably.

Sadly this is not the case.
They are still rubbish.

There have been some improvements in control, but it is still a very expensive way to heat a home.

Dinarius

2011 wrote: »

Sadly this is not the case.
They are still rubbish.

There have been some improvements in control, but it is still a very expensive way to heat a home.

So, in terms of controls, which models are best?

Thanks.

D

Hoagy

Dimplex Duoheat

mikeyjames9

2011 wrote: »

Sadly this is not the case.
They are still rubbish.

There have been some improvements in control

the heaters have improved too, if you look at the better models

2011

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

the heaters have improved too, if you look at the better models

The principle of operation remains unchanged.
Bricks heated by an electric heating element.
They are very expensive to run, control is still appalling.
Perhaps it can be argued that they have improved, but only marginally.
Bottom line is they are still [EMAIL="cr@p"]cr@p[/EMAIL]

Bruthal

Yea they were likely more suitable for the electricity generator, than the user

Dinarius

Thanks for the suggestions.

Will check out that Dimplex model.

Some useful info here also....

http://www.storageheaters.com/

http://www.electricheatingsolutions.ie/#!installation-prices/cdm

http://www.storageheaters.com/dimplex-storage-heater-duoheat.htm

D.

Stoner

well dimplex claim that the duo-heat units offer improved efficiency, it think the claim about 10 years ago was 20% improvement. so if you heaters are 20 years old you might get more out of new ones.

Dinarius

I've just been told by an installer who installs all types of electric heating/heaters that the day-rate, Technoterm rads are now the most popular and the most efficient.

For an eight hour day he claims a 50-60% saving when compared with night storage costs - typically, the occupant would have the radiator timed to come on about 2 hours before they come home.

For a 16 hour day, he claims 20-30% lower costs.

http://www.technotherm.com/Electric-Combination-Radiatorstt-ks-s.html

Interesting.

D.

akaMrSmith

2011 wrote: »

The principle of operation remains unchanged.
Bricks heated by an electric heating element.
They are very expensive to run, control is still appalling.
Perhaps it can be argued that they have improved, but only marginally.
Bottom line is they are still

This information is not correct. They are not bricks, they are iron ferrite. The control system is very different to the old storage heaters system and the next version will allow for control from your smart phone. The insulation is the same insulation used on the space shuttle.

2011

akaMrSmith wrote: »

This information is not correct. They are not bricks, they are iron ferrite.

Just because the material has changed does not mean that the principle of operation is different.

The control system is very different to the old storage heaters system and the next version will allow for control from your smart phone. The insulation is the same insulation used on the space shuttle.

That is all very well but control is still poor.
Just about any device can be switched via a smartphone app.
Although it is a positive development it does not necessarily follow that this will improve temperature regulation.

You do know that the very tyred and dated space shuttles were retired some time ago?

akaMrSmith

2011 wrote: »

Just because the material has changed does not mean that the principle of operation is different.



That is all very well but control is still poor.
Just about any device can be switched via a smartphone app.
Although it is a positive development it does not necessarily follow that this will improve temperature regulation.

You do know that the very tyred and dated space shuttles were retired some time ago?

I agreed that the principle of operation is the same as old storage heaters but the change in materials results in more efficiency than oil of gas or any other electrical heater on the market. The change in control means an increase in control of temperature regulation. It is more precise and faster to react. You say the control system is poor, can you give the name of a control system for any heating device that is more advanced and produces better control of a heating device?

<Mod Snip>

Added to all that the control systems firmware is upgradable, space was left for the addition of extra modules which are currently been developed.
Yes the space shuttle is retired but the insulation used means a huge improvement in the storage of heat energy compared to every other electrical heater on the market. The insulation used on the Quantum heater makes up almost 70% of the units cost. The space shuttle may be retired but that does not mean the technology used in the space shuttle is obsolete.

2011

One of the reasons that a storage heater has inherent control issues is due to the time constant of the bricks (or iron ferrite) is too large. So if there is a "disturbance" such as the room being cooled rapidly by a door being opened the system can not react quickly enough. When the set point is achieved the large time constant will cause large overshoot.

Water on the other hand has a much smaller time constant so more precise control and a quicker relation time is possible when used as a heating medium.

I would be interested in knowing how the control works when the power is off (at peak times).

akaMrSmith

2011 wrote: »

One of the reasons that a storage heater has inherent control issues is due to the time constant of the bricks (or iron ferrite) is too large. So if there is a "disturbance" such as the room being cooled rapidly by a door being opened the system can not react quickly enough. When the set point is achieved the large time constant will cause large overshoot.

Water on the other hand has a much smaller time constant so more precise control and a quicker relation time is possible when used as a heating medium.

< Mode edit: It is my understanding that Dimplex > did take that into account when designing the system, on the lower left side of the heater (as you look at it on the wall) is a release mechanism that controls how much heat is released from the iron ferrite core. This is not without fault, ie the temperature probe is located within the heater so the room temperature is judged from one point and not from a verity of points evenly distributed around the room. Your point is moot however as the temperature of the Iron ferrite is maintained within the insulation and not outside in the room itself. When the set point is reached this mechanism seals the heat inside the insulation and prevents the output of heat until a lower limit is reached, then the mechanism opens again to allow more heat into the room.

mikeyjames9

2011 wrote: »

Just because the material has changed does not mean that the principle of operation is different.



That is all very well but control is still poor.
Just about any device can be switched via a smartphone app.
Although it is a positive development it does not necessarily follow that this will improve temperature regulation.

You do know that the very tyred and dated space shuttles were retired some time ago?

you think the space shuttles are tired and dated?

try getting a storage heater to orbit earth!

akaMrSmith

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

you think the space shuttles are tired and dated?

try getting a storage heater to orbit earth!

t

Stranger things have happened!

2011

akaMrSmith wrote: »

on the lower left side of the heater (as you look at it on the wall) is a release mechanism that controls how much heat is released from the iron ferrite core.

So the heater contains and electrically actuated damper.
Does this damper does this damper modulate or is it simply open or close to control heat output?

This is not without fault, ie the temperature probe is located within the heater so the room temperature is judged from one point and not from a verity of points evenly distributed around the room.

In addition the room temperature is taken to be the temperature from within the heater enclosure, not an ideal reference point. But I accept that if there is more than one heater in the room each has its own stat and controller which is nice.

Your point is moot however as the temperature of the Iron ferrite is maintained within the insulation and not outside in the room itself. When the set point is reached this mechanism seals the heat inside the insulation and prevents the output of heat until a lower limit is reached, then the mechanism opens again to allow more heat into the room.

Yes I see what you mean. I agree that this is an improvement from conventional storage heaters.

I also had a look at this Dimplex link that you sent to me by PM.

Before getting too carried away it is important to consider this statement by Dimplex from the above link:

"It is not possible to provide detailed information on Quantum heating running costs because there are so many variables to consider – which electricity tariff will be used, how long the heater will be on for, what temperature the thermostat has been set to and what will the weather do! All of these factors need to be taken into account when working out the likely running cost of a heating system."

The calculations made by Dimplex to demonstrate that the Quantum storage heaters are cheaper to run than oil or gas heated systems are based on UK prices and only allow for 10% peak time use.

akaMrSmith

2011 wrote: »

So the heater contains and electrically actuated damper.
Does this damper does this damper modulate or is it simply open or close to control heat output?

Its actually a bimetalic strip so it adjusts as the temperate changes.

2011 wrote: »

I also had a look at (had to remove link as I cant post links!) Dimplex link that you sent to me by PM.

Before getting too carried away it is important to consider this statement by Dimplex from the above link:

"It is not possible to provide detailed information on Quantum heating running costs because there are so many variables to consider – which electricity tariff will be used, how long the heater will be on for, what temperature the thermostat has been set to and what will the weather do! All of these factors need to be taken into account when working out the likely running cost of a heating system."

The calculations made by Dimplex to demonstrate that the Quantum storage heaters are cheaper to run than oil or gas heated systems are based on UK prices and only allow for 10% peak time use.

All very true and whats also important to note is that these figures are lab results and not results from the field. As anyone with any technical knowledge will tell you they are VERY different scenarios.

Curlew

Lux a german made heater are reportedly a good replacement option.

akaMrSmith

Curlew wrote: »

Lux a german made heater are reportedly a good replacement option.

Lux? We had a look at Lux equipment, its not as good. Its not bad either but it takes second place. Lux takes second place in the storage heater market. Most storage heaters are manufactures by Seagoe Technologies and have different brands/badges added to them during manufacture.

Dinarius

Why is everyone ignoring the day-rate Technotherm heaters I mentioned above?

http://www.technotherm.com/Electric-Combination-Radiatorstt-ks-s.html

D.

akaMrSmith

Dinarius wrote: »

Why is everyone ignoring the day-rate Technotherm heaters I mentioned above?
D.

Ive just had a look at these, they are very similar to storage heaters. Other than the look of them there is little difference but they really dont look very nice, to square for my liking. Also Im not very fond of the controls, analogue dials are really outdated.

Dr Crippen

Does anyone know about rointe electrical radiators, a few people have said they are good?

mikeyjames9

Dinarius wrote: »

Why is everyone ignoring the day-rate Technotherm heaters I mentioned above?

http://www.technotherm.com/Electric-Combination-Radiatorstt-ks-s.html

D.

can you always save money with day rate heating alone

what if the premises is occupied at all times in cold weather etc

aren't they all 100% efficient?

2011

akaMrSmith wrote: »

This information is not correct. They are not bricks, they are iron ferrite.

Interestingly on page 8 of the Dimplex Quantum manual refers to bricks. I assume that your point is that the bricks are made of iron ferrite which has superior thermal properties.

This graph claims to show how well the Dimplex storage heater tracks the desired set point during a 24 hour period:

mikeyjames9

lol

doesn't a "brick" merely refer to the shape

threes lot of things called bricks cos they're shaped like building bricks

Dinarius

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

can you always save money with day rate heating alone

what if the premises is occupied at all times in cold weather etc

aren't they all 100% efficient?

This may be of interest.

http://www.technotherm.com/Electric-Combination-Radiatorstt-ks-s.html?file=files/tti/downloads/Gebrauchsanweisungen/Test_report_TT_TT-KS_GB.pdf

Page 6 of the above link compares the cost of this radiator versus gas and oil. #

Very interesting.

D.

Dinarius

Ps.

They do have digital controls. But, for some reason, they are not shown in the online manual. They are only mentioned.

But, I have confirmed this with the installer.

D.

John T Carroll

akaMrSmith wrote: »

I agreed that the principle of operation is the same as old storage heaters but the change in materials results in more efficiency than oil of gas or any other electrical heater on the market. The change in control means an increase in control of temperature regulation. It is more precise and faster to react. You say the control system is poor, can you give the name of a control system for any heating device that is more advanced and produces better control of a heating device?

<Mod Snip>

Added to all that the control systems firmware is upgradable, space was left for the addition of extra modules which are currently been developed.
Yes the space shuttle is retired but the insulation used means a huge improvement in the storage of heat energy compared to every other electrical heater on the market. The insulation used on the Quantum heater makes up almost 70% of the units cost. The space shuttle may be retired but that does not mean the technology used in the space shuttle is obsolete.

I have been looking at all the info I can gather re the Dimplex Quantum Storage Heater for a close relation who is contemplating installing them in a refurbished small house. The single most important item with any storage heater is their ability to actually store the heat . This is allegdly one of the quantum’s major attributes but I just dont seem to be able to get a definitive statement on this, see more on this later.

The storage heater comes in four sizes: QM070,QM100,QM125&QM1.50.which are respectively 0.7KW,1.0KW,1.25KW&1.5KW (Outputs) (there may be a 2.0 KW one as well), The heaters all have a fan to distribute the heat and have all sorts of sophisticated controls which seem very useful whether one works by day or is at home all day, it also has a holiday function. (see link for reviews)

Storage Heater Losses. On the RTE1 (radio) Sean O’Rourke show on Thursday January 22nd last, (available on podcast), Sean O’Driscoll MD of Dimplex gave a very interesting interview re the quantum heater, he also stated that Dimplex also make a highly insulated hot water cylinder that will retain 92% of its “charged” heat quantity after 24 hrs, Sean then asked him about the storage heater heat retention and he replied “similar”. This means that the storage heater will only lose 8% of its charged capacity after 24 hours. Using the QM1.5, 1.5 KW heater, as an example, this has a fully charged capacity of 23.1 Kwh so should only lose (leak) 1.85 Kwh/24 hrs which is 77 watts/hour, a truly outstanding performance. However, I did see somewhere else that the quantum heater will retain “more than 50% of its capacity after 24 hrs”, now IF this true then the leakage rate is up to 480 watts/hr or 0.48 Kw/hour which would keep a well insulated room quite comfortable but this is no good for someone who is out all day and only wants heat in the evening/night. Here is the quotation that I saw.... Dynamic storage capacity - automatically adjusts to user needs
Designed to retain over 50% of heat 24 hours after the initial charge
Infinitely controllable electronic heat output to precisely match user lifestyle.


If there is anybody from Dimplex out there (maybe on that space shuttle!!) reading this, would they please tell us what the % heat leakage from the quantum storage heaters is.
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4756577&page=2

2011

John T Carroll wrote: »

The single most important item with any storage heater is their ability to actually store the heat .

I would think that the single most important item is the cost of heating a home by using storage heaters.