Sub 2:40 thread

Billy Mills

Hey - I think a few of us are targeting sub 2:40 @ marathons in the fall so figured I'd start a thread to share training, strategies, races etc..

I'll kick it off- coming off a 77 min HM in May. Currently hitting 70 miles a week the last two weeks of training. Raced 6k on Thurs night (20:2x) was my first race in 2 months.

I kinda reckon I'll need to be around 75:45- 76 HM shape to have a good crack at sub 2:40

How's everyone else getting on?

dublin runner

Excellent idea for a thread Billy! We must meet up for a run sometime

I'd be along the same lines as yourself. I think I really need to hit 1.15:xx minutes for the half in September to have a reasonable chance of nailing Dublin. I will race the Athlone Flatline as my 'bench mark' race. Not everything will depend on it but it will give me a good indication of where I stand. Other than that I will run the Moone Kilomarathon @MP and see how I get on! I might do the Athlone 3/4 but haven't yet decided.

ultrapercy

Billy Mills wrote: »

Hey - I think a few of us are targeting sub 2:40 @ marathons in the fall so figured I'd start a thread to share training, strategies, races etc..

I'll kick it off- coming off a 77 min HM in May. Currently hitting 70 miles a week the last two weeks of training. Raced 6k on Thurs night (20:2x) was my first race in 2 months.

I kinda reckon I'll need to be around 75:45- 76 HM shape to have a good crack at sub 2:40

How's everyone else getting on?

I think its outrageous you swanning in here after a mere 22 posts and setting up a thread. WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?? And what the **** is fall???

happygoose

Similar target for myself, 2:39 or better.
Doing Frankfurt, big crew heading that direction targeting those kinda times.
Coming off the back of 16:44 5k and 34:34 10k.
Previous marathon PB of 2:49.
Averaging 72 miles the past 8 weeks.
Nothing longer than 15 so far in one run.
Running most days, couple of doubles per week.
Watching diet a lot and shedding weight I could do with losing, was 158lbs 8 weeks ago, down to 147, plan is sub 140lbs.
Planning on 6 weeks solid marathon specific work, increased mileage, 5 18-22 mile runs, from beginning of August onwards, won't go near races during those 6 weeks.
Will be following whatever plan my Club are doing.
Racing Charleville Half 21st Sept, Rathfarnham 5k 28th Sept, then Donadea 10k 2 weeks out, will choose what the target will be from my times in those races.

jebuz

Alright lads, well I honestly wouldn't have even considered a 2:40 effort after capitulating in Rotterdam last April but things are a little different now, like Alan Partridge I (may) have bounced back and I feel I'm capable of a 2:45 at the very least (is this the cue to start a sub 2:45 thread?). I'm keen to just get the marathon confidence back and run a good PB but on the other hand I'm thinking why not give the 2:40 a shot if I'm in the shape for it so my head is telling me I should go for it. Anyway I've been racing well and ran a 76:19 half at the weekend which was a big boost but like yourselves I would need to get that down to low 75's I reckon to really be in with a shot. Will probably use Athlone or Charleville as the benchmark myself, time for the real showdown DR??

I've Been typically running 60-65 for the last 3 month and a big focus on speed quality, transitioning to more endurance focussed training over the next few weeks. I really think the addition of a midweek long run is going to be key. Will be doing an 8 week specific plan with the club, long runs will be all done at v.easy (7:00-7:30) pace, 2 long runs (sunday & midweek medium-long), tempo and grass session will be a typical week. Planning on doubles on easy days to build the milage and I'll probably peak at around 90m.

Billy Mills

ultrapercy wrote: »

I think its outrageous you swanning in here after a mere 22 posts and setting up a thread. WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?? And what the **** is fall???

Volunteering to be the thread mentor UP?

T runner

dublin runner wrote: »

Excellent idea for a thread Billy! We must meet up for a run sometime

I'd be along the same lines as yourself. I think I really need to hit 1.15:xx minutes for the half in September to have a reasonable chance of nailing Dublin. I will race the Athlone Flatline as my 'bench mark' race. Not everything will depend on it but it will give me a good indication of where I stand. Other than that I will run the Moone Kilomarathon @MP and see how I get on! I might do the Athlone 3/4 but haven't yet decided.

I think you need to be very strong to run sub 2:40 but not necessarily that fast.
A fastish half is good but IMO the time should come from your strenght rather than speed. Consistant sustainable high mileage is necessary.

If you look at the paces people tend to run for marathon training, there tends to be a dearth of training runs at paces between M pace and easy pace.

If you were to train @ one pace in that zone id suggest a pace thats 5% slower than M pace (6.25 per mile for sub 2:40). You could probably run 20k at that pace now without it taking too much out of you. It will directly help marathon endurance obviously and provide a great base for those bigger M pace runs you've planned. If you extend it a little you'll get great strenght to base your HM on (along with the high sustained mileage.)

You should do some especific HM sessions sure, but if you dont balance them with long (fast) endurance runs then the HM time wont have as much affect on your M time as youd wish IMO.

Billy Mills

T runner wrote: »

I think you need to be very strong to run sub 2:40 but not necessarily that fast.
A fastish half is good but IMO the time should come from your strenght rather than speed. Consistant sustainable high mileage is necessary.

If you look at the paces people tend to run for marathon training, there tends to be a dearth of training runs at paces between M pace and easy pace. To me that

If you were to do one run in that zone id suggest a pace thats 5% slower than M pace (6.25 per mile for sub 2:40). You could probably run 20k at that pace now without it taking too much out of you. It will directly help marathon endurance obviously and provide a great base for those bigger M pace runs you've planned. If you extend it a little you'll get great strenght to base your HM on (along with the high sustained mileage.)

You should do some especific HM sessions sure, but if you dont balance them with long (fast) endurance runs then the HM time wont have as much affect on your M time as youd wish IMO.

Agree w/ that post TR looks like I'll be running a good few steady runs this time around- did my LSR this weekend the day after 8 miles @ 6:30 and found it beneficial in terms of tiring the legs.

Point well taken about strength- I personally have been working on bringing my longer stuff more in line w/ my shorter race times and have come to realise how little correlation there is between being able to run 5k @ 5:15/ 5:20 pace and running 26.2 at 6:04....I do tend to slip though so I'll need a good bit of wiggle room on my HM in order to feel confident.

T runner

Billy Mills wrote: »

Agree w/ that post TR looks like I'll be running a good few steady runs this time around- did my LSR this weekend the day after 8 miles @ 6:30 and found it beneficial in terms of tiring the legs.

Point well taken about strength- I personally have been working on bringing my longer stuff more in line w/ my shorter race times and have come to realise how little correlation there is between being able to run 5k @ 5:15/ 5:20 pace and running 26.2 at 6:04....I do tend to slip though so I'll need a good bit of wiggle room on my HM in order to feel confident.

When you say slip do you mean there's a big gap between HM pace and M pace?
If so, that pace of session should help. Also helps if there is a tendency to fade (endurance) or if the M training program becomes exhaustive (too intense) it could help by swapping steady runs for sessions.

I also did 1-2 long runs of 30-35k @ 10% slower than MP. In my first serious marathon attempt I faded losing 2-3 mins. I figured it was easy time to get if i could solve it. It worked and they were also a great base for the long tough M pace sessions. Everyone's different: they helped me a lot but may not help others as much.

Id definately say that fast running slower than M pace as well as faster than M pace, is helpful to help improve endurance for the big sessions ahead and for the marathon itself. If the confidence is to do with being unsure of endurance, then they may be worthwhile for that reason too.

cgooner

Hey great idea for a thread and perfect timing.....I ran 2.45 in Rotterdam last April so big jump to sub 2.40 in Dublin this October but enjoying the training and would be great to share training ideas over the next few weeks.

I'm averaging 70 miles for the last few weeks and will keep that as a base and peak at 80 miles for a few weeks......my plan is to build endurance like the last few posters have been saying and work on a lot of tempo running and mp miles on tired legs.

Looking forward to following progress!

dublin runner

T runner wrote: »

I think you need to be very strong to run sub 2:40 but not necessarily that fast.
A fastish half is good but IMO the time should come from your strenght rather than speed. Consistant sustainable high mileage is necessary.

If you look at the paces people tend to run for marathon training, there tends to be a dearth of training runs at paces between M pace and easy pace.

If you were to train @ one pace in that zone id suggest a pace thats 5% slower than M pace (6.25 per mile for sub 2:40). You could probably run 20k at that pace now without it taking too much out of you. It will directly help marathon endurance obviously and provide a great base for those bigger M pace runs you've planned. If you extend it a little you'll get great strenght to base your HM on (along with the high sustained mileage.)

You should do some especific HM sessions sure, but if you dont balance them with long (fast) endurance runs then the HM time wont have as much affect on your M time as youd wish IMO.

I can definitely see where you are coming from regarding the half marathon time 'needed' to hit sub 2.40. For me it's a confidence issue. I know I could still still my marathon time off a 1.17 (for example) but to put it simply, the belief would just would not be there. When you say MP +5% is that essentially a steady run? For example, I ran 8 at 6.33 on Sunday. I know this is not 6.25 but is this the type of run you are talking about? Slowly building up the length of the steady run over the next few weeks.

What do you classify as high mileage when targeting a 2.39 marathon? Going to be averaging 80 miles a week for the next few weeks, coming off a 75 average. I would like a few 100+ mile weeks come Sept.

jebuz

dublin runner wrote: »

What do you classify as high mileage when targeting a 2.39 marathon? Going to be averaging 80 miles a week for the next few weeks, coming off a 75 average. I would like a few 100+ mile weeks come Sept.

I don't think any answer to that question could accurately apply to a particular target time, we all react differently to various training stimulus. I've read about athletes running 2:3x off 70 mile weeks whereas another runner will need to run 100+ to hit that target, there are just too many variables and many roads to success. Granted high milage is an important component but quality is just as important.

I can't see myself hitting 100+ mile weeks for this schedule, it's too big of a jump from the milage I'm running now and I'm probably risking injury so I'll have to hope quality trumps quantity, there now that's my ass covered :pac:

dublin runner

jebuz wrote: »

I don't think any answer to that question could accurately apply to a particular target time, we all react differently to various training stimulus. I've read about athletes running 2:3x off 70 mile weeks whereas another runner will need to run 100+ to hit that target, there are just too many variables and many roads to success. Granted high milage is an important component but quality is just as important.

I can't see myself hitting 100+ mile weeks for this schedule, it's too big of a jump from the milage I'm running now and I'm probably risking injury so I'll have to hope quality trumps quantity, there now that's my ass covered :pac:

It was more of a general question. I was interested to see what some people classify as 'high mileage'. I agree with you about mileage. X Miles doesn't guarantee you anything. As you mentioned, everyone reacts differently to training.

Take me for example. I could never attempt sub 2.40 off a peak week of 70. My body reacts better to the higher mileage stuff. Looking back to a few weeks ago, when I averaged 50 miles, I have a lot more energy now even though I am training a lot harder.

Regarding quality. I personally run every session, race and steady/tempo run tired. I don't ease up. For me the greatest training stimulus is running almost everything on fatigued legs. For example, I prefer to run 5 miles @tempo on battered legs rather than 8 miles@tempo on fresh legs. For me the acid test comes in September when I hopefully run a kilomarathon @MP with a lot of miles in the legs.

I know this is slightly off topic but I see a lot of peoples long run dominating their weekend. They take a day off before and sometimes the day after doing a 20 mile run in a 50 mile week (or run short easy runs ether side). Each to their own but I prefer shorter long runs, starting out on tired legs.

Billy Mills

Good discussion. I'm pretty sure that I'd breakdown after 80-85 miles at least thats what happened to me in college (will admit maybe that just causes an irrational fear of high miles in me.) I have just come off a cycle where I ran a 77 and some mid to low 16 5k's off 50 a week max but I know for sure I won't get away with a sub 2:40 mara on that. I kinda agree w/ jebuz on the good quality stuff.

I do think different things work for different runners- though if you flip through even the first few posts in this thread, I'm seeing an awful lot of similarity as well! Will be interesting to see people's workouts as we enter the 12week phase....

T runner

dublin runner wrote: »

I can definitely see where you are coming from regarding the half marathon time 'needed' to hit sub 2.40. For me it's a confidence issue. I know I could still still my marathon time off a 1.17 (for example) but to put it simply, the belief would just would not be there. When you say MP +5% is that essentially a steady run? For example, I ran 8 at 6.33 on Sunday. I know this is not 6.25 but is this the type of run you are talking about? Slowly building up the length of the steady run over the next few weeks.

What do you classify as high mileage when targeting a 2.39 marathon? Going to be averaging 80 miles a week for the next few weeks, coming off a 75 average. I would like a few 100+ mile weeks come Sept.

Yes. The paces 0-10% slower than M pace are often omitted in a marathon build up. If you haven't done these runs you might get a significant boost in sternght.

MP + 5% is steady. If M pace is 6:06 (2:40) then

M pace + 10% = 6:06 + 36 = 6:42
M pace + 5% = 6:06 + 18 = 6:24

A lot of times runners concentrate on grinding out slight improvements @ 10% faster (10k pace) or 5% faster (HM pace) while neglecting the endurance side.

Suggested runs for this:

Id do long runs progressing up to 35k @ <=110% M Pace every 2-3 weeks.
Start @ 110% (<6:45) in first one and maybe 26-28k.

Steady runs @ <=105% M pace starting @ whatever you can manage now (maybe 15k) every 1-2 weeks adding distance up to 25k per week (or more if you feel theres more there).

Another useful run is 21k progression 110% MP down to 100% MP.

Balance these with the HM paces sessions etc youve probably planned. This suggestion is just so you have paces balanced on both the endurance side and the speed side of M pace.

HM sessions (and faster) make M pace feel easier. The fast steady endurance runs will help you sustain M pace for longer.

Running for 35k @ 3:42 pace takes 2hrs 20 or so. You can see how useful that one run alone could be to completing the big key M pace runs and at the end of the marathon itself. That run is missing from many schedules.

But again decide what will work best for you. My own opinion is that not neglecting the endurance side of a sub 2:40 attempt makes the task a lot easier.

What do you classify as high mileage when targeting a 2.39 marathon? Going to be averaging 80 miles a week for the next few weeks, coming off a 75 average. I would like a few 100+ mile weeks come Sept.

Just to add. The stimulus is relavent. Youre on 75 now. If youre averaging 90 for a few weeks in September that will be a huge stimulus for you. No gain in going higher IMO because you will need to complete the specific sessions within the overall mileage. Very difficult and risky to achieve that at 100 mpw.
Most important is consistancy and not getting injured, then relative sustainable high mileage.

Edited added bold to make post clearer

ecoli

Following on from T Runner's post I have to say I started using a few of these in a previous cycle and brought me on leaps and bounds.

Aim to rotate these in with normal long runs for a change of stimulus every 2-3 weeks

This and consistent higher mileage will be something aim to hopefully get into the habit of in the coming weeks.

Not where I should be at the moment but trying to get there slowly

jebuz

dublin runner wrote: »

It was more of a general question. I was interested to see what some people classify as 'high mileage'. I agree with you about mileage. X Miles doesn't guarantee you anything. As you mentioned, everyone reacts differently to training.

Take me for example. I could never attempt sub 2.40 off a peak week of 70. My body reacts better to the higher mileage stuff. Looking back to a few weeks ago, when I averaged 50 miles, I have a lot more energy now even though I am training a lot harder.

Regarding quality. I personally run every session, race and steady/tempo run tired. I don't ease up. For me the greatest training stimulus is running almost everything on fatigued legs. For example, I prefer to run 5 miles @tempo on battered legs rather than 8 miles@tempo on fresh legs. For me the acid test comes in September when I hopefully run a kilomarathon @MP with a lot of miles in the legs.

I know this is slightly off topic but I see a lot of peoples long run dominating their weekend. They take a day off before and sometimes the day after doing a 20 mile run in a 50 mile week (or run short easy runs ether side). Each to their own but I prefer shorter long runs, starting out on tired legs.

I did notice from your last plan that you do seemed to react well on high milage, you ran some great races but there's a fine line there also, I know you didn't completely burn out but you came close Agree with you on the running on tired legs, I know it's the approach my coach applies to his marathon runners - bollox the absoute sh!te out of you on a Saturday and then off for a 20 miler on Sunday, if that's not enough then throw in a 5 miler on top of that on the Sunday evening.

You might have seen me mention a book in another thread on marathon runners of the 80's and a common theme throughout all their dialog that struck me is that they ran hard a lot and that meant running on tired legs, a lot! There's no need to delve to deep into the science of it really, you're basically trying to recreate and adapt to the anticipated stress of a marathon

dublin runner

jebuz wrote: »

I did notice from your last plan that you do seemed to react well on high milage, you ran some great races but there's a fine line there also, I know you didn't completely burn out but you came close

I can laugh about it now.....just!

I just about hung on. Under performed but just about made it! :pac: High mileage is well and good but it comes at a cost. I couldn't walk, let alone run properly for a month after.

Running a tough hilly training marathon (Tralee 2.59) in a 86 mile week and then doing a 90 mile week the week after with a 21 mile @6.46p/m on the Sunday is something I definitely won't be reproducing!! All a month before Rotterdam. Just stupid.

Live and learn. It's a very line line :cool:

jebuz

Exactly, the nice thing is that you learn something new each marathon cycle. You can read all the literature there is and debate on the best methods until the cows come home but you just gotta get out and run and see what sort of training makes you run best. I think I suffered from the opposite in Rotterdam, lack of base milage and it's only dawned on me recently how important a developed aerobic base is. I came into the plan off almost zilch and paid for it but things are set up a little better this time...I hope

Billy Mills

jebuz wrote: »

Exactly, the nice thing is that you learn something new each marathon cycle. You can read all the literature there is and debate on the best methods until the cows come home but you just gotta get out and run and see what sort of training makes you run best. I think I suffered from the opposite in Rotterdam, lack of base milage and it's only dawned on me recently how important a developed aerobic base is. I came into the plan off almost zilch and paid for it but things are set up a little better this time...I hope

Yup. That base it built up over years as well. Amazing the way the runs/ consistency build and produce strength- I feel like the build up to a good marathon is really years in the making. honestly- 6 min miles aren't really that fast relatively speaking lots of people can run 1 or 5 or 13.1 or whatever- its translating that pace to 26.2 thats the really real hard part....

I do think consistent, easy running plays a massive part in conditioning for this.

dublin runner

How's everyone approaching September? I will be knocking alcohol on the head and looking to really tidy up the diet. I think in doing this I will naturally lose a fair bit of weight although nothing too drastic.

The racing plan is hectic enough. Pretty much racing every weekend.

-6th The Lakes 10km
-13th Athlone Flatline Half
-20th Dublin Half (not racing, part of long run)
-28th Moone Kilomarathon (MP run)

My chances of hitting sub 2.40 i'd say are 50/50. The plan is to train hard and see what happens in Moone. That in a lot of ways will be the key race.

PatrickRuns

Interesting thread. As a few people already mentioned, many differences in opinion with mileage & training methodology.

I rarely do more than 65 miles / week during marathon training, and my training block is 8 weeks total. I do 2-3 long runs of up to 16-18 miles generally about 45s-1 min/mile slower than MP. Generally includes one half marathon at PB effort and a couple other shorter races.

For me the key workouts are those including miles at MP and HMP, preceded by long warm ups (4-8 miles) such as:
30 minutes warm up at easy pace - 30 minutes at MP - 3 mins easy - 12 minutes at HMP/threshold - 3 mins easy - 30 minutes at MP - 20 mins cool down

This replaces effectively long runs (the whole thing is a couple of hours and 18-20 miles), lets you get a good feel of MP, and makes the workout a lot more enjoyable (varied paces)

I believe in the science of peak form: train too hard for too long and you will eventually burn out. Long runs with too many miles (20+) at a fast pace (>90% MP) will trash your muscles for race day (although I do agree that some people recover faster than other).

happygoose

Well, guess this thread was going to be resurrected around now.

I guess we'll all approach this very differently. What works for one person doesn't necessarily work for others.

For me, I've increased my mileage to an average of 80-90 from an average of 72 for the previous 8 weeks. I'll hold this for about 5/6 weeks, with a back week in there of about 70 and a race. I'm two weeks in. 2 long runs done, 3rd this Sunday. All MP+1 min'ish. I've six planned. My other sessions are something like 6 x 1 mile @10k pace on a Tues and an MP run on a Thurs. I ran a 1:17 half two weeks ago and expect to run a 1:15 in mid September. I'm reasonably confident of going sub 2:40 if I can avoid sickness / injury.

Come October I will back off the mileage 10-15 miles per week. The marathon isn't the be all and end all really, there are races I want to do in October. A 10k PB in Donadea hopefully, and I turn Master the day of the Gerry Farnan, so I want to do that.

I'll be putting myself through the mill for 5/6 weeks, then letting myself recover, taper, then go for the 2:40.

Dublin Runner, how / when do you fit in the long runs with racing every weekend?

dublin runner

happygoose wrote: »

Dublin Runner, how / when do you fit in the long runs with racing every weekend?

Great going, looks like a good sensible approach to training.

Yeah, the long run on race weekends is tricky. That's the reason I haven't races at all (bar one Parkrun) all month. The Kilomarathon will act as my long run for that week as will the Dublin Half with added miles either side. The 10k next week will be at the end of a step back week. I will extend the Wedneday run from 15 to 18+ for that week. The Athlone half the week after is all about that race. I will probably just go for a few easy miles that evening before work to bring it up to 20 miles.....if I am able to!

Krusty_Clown

happygoose wrote: »

Dublin Runner, how / when do you fit in the long runs with racing every weekend?

A couple of those races are on Saturdays. What's to prevent long runs on the Sundays? Certainly that'll be my strategy, but the pace of the long run will take a knock to take into account tiredness in the legs and increased risk of injury.

happygoose

Perhaps, but racing a 10k, Half, Half and 3/4 in weekly succession is very very tough on the body, enough to make most of us crumble, let alone with the stress of a long run the following day on top of those races.

Krusty_Clown

happygoose wrote: »

Perhaps, but racing a 10k, Half, Half and 3/4 in weekly succession is very very tough on the body, enough to make most of us crumble, let alone with the stress of a long run the following day on top of those races.

I wouldn't suggest doing it for all of those races, but certainly for some of them it makes sense. Many programs include a tune-up race/long run combo as it's a great way of ensuring that you do a long run on tired legs, which will both simulate the latter parts of a marathon and potentially help with endurance adaptations. But, at the same time, making the start line is paramount, so if you're the kind of person who gives 100% in every race and can't walk the next day, this strategy isn't for you.

Have you settled on a target for the marathon happygoose?

dublin runner

happygoose wrote: »

Perhaps, but racing a 10k, Half, Half and 3/4 in weekly succession is very very tough on the body, enough to make most of us crumble, let alone with the stress of a long run the following day on top of those races.

Not planning on racing them all. The Dublin Half is an easy run and hopefully the 3/4 will be a controlled run, not full out but a solid hard effort. I am only racing full out twice really so should be fine. Should be!

dublin runner

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

A couple of those races are on Saturdays. What's to prevent long runs on the Sundays? Certainly that'll be my strategy, but the pace of the long run will take a knock to take into account tiredness in the legs and increased risk of injury.

Very true. Keep on forgetting I won't be able to have a few drinks after the races (except the 6th) so I have no excuse! :pac: Generally I dislike dong the long run after a race. More of a mental than physical thing. May now do a long run the day after Athlone having had a think about it.

tunguska

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

A couple of those races are on Saturdays. What's to prevent long runs on the Sundays? Certainly that'll be my strategy, but the pace of the long run will take a knock to take into account tiredness in the legs and increased risk of injury.

I used to do this but no good ever came from doing a long run the day after a race. I know the theory says theres benefits to running on tired legs but from my own experience I've found that your best off taking a rest day the day after a race(10 miles and above) or just do an easy 5 miles or so. Leave the long run for a few days or even just write it off.

theboyblunder

tunguska wrote: »

I used to do this but no good ever came from doing a long run the day after a race. I know the theory says theres benefits to running on tired legs but from my own experience I've found that your best off taking a rest day the day after a race(10 miles and above) or just do an easy 5 miles or so. Leave the long run for a few days or even just write it off.

I need a day off after just reading your race reports.

I think runners are different as KC says. I read recently that faster twitch muscle guys (im still talking about distance runners, but they guys who tend to be better at 5-10K than half-full etc) can do more oxidative damage to themselves (and run faster) in shorter races, and need more time off than slower twitch guys.

I can bust a gut and finish in a jocker (in slow times), but still be fine running an LSR the next day.

dublin runner

Interesting to read that everyone has a completely different approach! I was told recently enough that doing speed sessions, let's say 400,600 reps, actually negatively impacts on marathon training when approaching the last few weeks of marathon training. Anyone have any insight/thoughts on this?

Stazza

dublin runner wrote: »

Interesting to read that everyone has a completely different approach! I was told recently enough that doing speed sessions, let's say 400,600 reps, actually negatively impacts on marathon training when approaching the last few weeks of marathon training. Anyone have any insight/thoughts on this?

This is correct: the idea of marathon training is to train the body to burn fuel effectively at mp. This pretty much means getting your body to tap into fat. If you bang out 400/600 reps in the final stages you are teaching your body to burn glycogen and therefore, messing up months of good work. This tends to manifest itself in runners getting to about 18-22 miles and feeling dead on their legs. Not quite the wall, but that horrible feeling that all is not well.

Some people will do a 5k/10k race 2-3 weeks out from the marathon and this impacts in the same way. The saving grace here is if you have a pants run - at least slower than what you expect. If you do have a pants run or below par, this can be a good sign that you are in fact in good marathon shape.

There are, however, people who will say that they do shorter stuff before a marathon and that it doesn't impact badly on their races - they should try not doing shorter stuff before a race and see what happens. Of course, these are merely my humble thoughts on the matter...

dublin runner

Stazza wrote: »

This is correct: the idea of marathon training is to train the body to burn fuel effectively at mp. This pretty much means getting your body to tap into fat. If you bang out 400/600 reps in the final stages you are teaching your body to burn glycogen and therefore, messing up months of good work. This tends to manifest itself in runners getting to about 18-22 miles and feeling dead on their legs. Not quite the wall, but that horrible feeling that all is not well.

Some people will do a 5k/10k race 2-3 weeks out from the marathon and this impacts in the same way. The saving grace here is if you have a pants run - at least slower than what you expect. If you do have a pants run or below par, this can be a good sign that you are in fact in good marathon shape.

There are, however, people who will say that they do shorter stuff before a marathon and that it doesn't impact badly on their races - they should try not doing shorter stuff before a race and see what happens. Of course, these are merely my humble thoughts on the matter...

Sound words. Pretty much agree with everything. I did a 10k 11 days before the marathon in April. Don't think ill be doing that again!

dublin runner

Stazza wrote: »

This is correct: the idea of marathon training is to train the body to burn fuel effectively at mp. This pretty much means getting your body to tap into fat. If you bang out 400/600 reps in the final stages you are teaching your body to burn glycogen and therefore, messing up months of good work. This tends to manifest itself in runners getting to about 18-22 miles and feeling dead on their legs. Not quite the wall, but that horrible feeling that all is not well.

Some people will do a 5k/10k race 2-3 weeks out from the marathon and this impacts in the same way. The saving grace here is if you have a pants run - at least slower than what you expect. If you do have a pants run or below par, this can be a good sign that you are in fact in good marathon shape.

There are, however, people who will say that they do shorter stuff before a marathon and that it doesn't impact badly on their races - they should try not doing shorter stuff before a race and see what happens. Of course, these are merely my humble thoughts on the matter...

Sound words. Pretty much agree with everything. I did a 10k 11 days before the marathon in April. Don't think ill be doing that again!

happygoose

If I was reading all this during taper madness I'd be having a mini meltdown. Skin. Cat.

No idea what I'll be going for KC - right now I'd take 2:39:55. I had a torrid time in the Clonmel Half. It was a kick up the hole. My goal time will depend on Charleville. I've a couple of friends around the same pace doing Charleville/Frankfurt, I'd like to be running both with them. I'll be better informed about where I'm at then. There's normally a goal time table flying about pre marathon, I'll fill it in. I'm guessing you're going 2:34'ish?

Krusty_Clown

tunguska wrote: »

I used to do this but no good ever came from doing a long run the day after a race. I know the theory says theres benefits to running on tired legs but from my own experience I've found that your best off taking a rest day the day after a race(10 miles and above) or just do an easy 5 miles or so. Leave the long run for a few days or even just write it off.

I think you're probably a type I runner (similar to he formerly known as TRR), in that you commit to your build-up races 100% and leave nothing behind, which makes a long run on the consecutive day a far more risky proposition. You'll risk blowing it all, in order to beat a specific individual or stay with a group, early in the race (I'm not sure if your recent set of injuries has forced you to adapt your strategy?).

Then there are those of us who are type 2 runners, (theboyblunder and I), who don't run to our limits, are more risk-averse (in the running context), who will pretty much always run within 30-60 seconds of our predicted race time, and will often have something left in the tank at the end of the race (negative splits are common). Long runs the next day are feasible, as the legs haven't gone through the wringer.

Apologies for pigeon-holing/type-casting. Just throwing out a theory. These types may be attributable to TBB's fast twitch/slow twitch hypothesis.

Krusty_Clown

happygoose wrote: »

No idea what I'll be going for KC - right now I'd take 2:39:55. I had a torrid time in the Clonmel Half. It was a kick up the hole. My goal time will depend on Charleville. I've a couple of friends around the same pace doing Charleville/Frankfurt, I'd like to be running both with them. I'll be better informed about where I'm at then. There's normally a goal time table flying about pre marathon, I'll fill it in. I'm guessing you're going 2:34'ish?

I'm still aiming for 2:32, but like you, I'll be guided by my results in my tune-up races, and by how my marathon pace runs go. At this point I believe I'm not in shape for that target, but don't have overwhelming evidence to that effect. I don't like to correlate my half marathon times to full-marathon times using vdot/MacMillan etc., as my focus isn't the half marathon, but if the 15 mile marathon pace runs don't go well, I will definitely adjust my time downwards.

dukeraoul

Good stuff guys . Yeah my training is going pretty good. Had a poor Frank Duffy and have made the decision to use my Frankfurt entry this year so no DCM which I feel gives me a better chance at a quick time .

Racing Athlone and will MP Moone so will decide on pace from there but if I can push down the HM from my 77 in May I think I'm in with a chance. Happy Goose sounds like we could be seeing a good bit of each other in Frankfurt all going well.

tunguska

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I think you're probably a type I runner (similar to he formerly known as TRR), in that you commit to your build-up races 100% and leave nothing behind, which makes a long run on the consecutive day a far more risky proposition. You'll risk blowing it all, in order to beat a specific individual or stay with a group, early in the race (I'm not sure if your recent set of injuries has forced you to adapt your strategy?).

Then there are those of us who are type 2 runners, (theboyblunder and I), who don't run to our limits, are more risk-averse (in the running context), who will pretty much always run within 30-60 seconds of our predicted race time, and will often have something left in the tank at the end of the race (negative splits are common). Long runs the next day are feasible, as the legs haven't gone through the wringer.

Apologies for pigeon-holing/type-casting. Just throwing out a theory. These types may be attributable to TBB's fast twitch/slow twitch hypothesis.

Im not actually injured! Im good, just been taking it handy. I see what you mean. It is down to the individual I suppose. If you run a 10mile race for example on a saturday and then on sunday you feel fine and you knock out a 20miler without getting injured or frying your circuits then its all good. But if you do said race and you feel a bit cooked the next day I'd say leave the long run and let your body recover. JD recommends a day of easy running for every 3k of hard racing and I've found that system works really well

dublin runner

dukeraoul wrote: »

Good stuff guys . Yeah my training is going pretty good. Had a poor Frank Duffy and have made the decision to use my Frankfurt entry this year so no DCM which I feel gives me a better chance at a quick time .

Racing Athlone and will MP Moone so will decide on pace from there but if I can push down the HM from my 77 in May I think I'm in with a chance. Happy Goose sounds like we could be seeing a good bit of each other in Frankfurt all going well.

Another good man down. I may be the last man standing in Dublin!

What was your main reason for choosing Frankfurt? Flatter course, deeper field? Our 20 mile run (mainly running the 1st half of Dublin) reminded me that Dublin is not the easiest course. The weather on the day really can play havoc, particularly the winds.

What's the goal for Athlone? My plan (tbc!) is to start out at 5.50 a mile and see where that gets me. Thinking of doing a mini HM session next week. Possibly 3x2miles @HMP.

theboyblunder

dublin runner wrote: »

Another good man down. I may be the last man standing in Dublin!

What was your main reason for choosing Frankfurt? Flatter course, deeper field? Our 20 mile run (mainly running the 1st half of Dublin) reminded me that Dublin is not the easiest

He was in a smack down challenge with me for the DCM to stop his big sisters pearse talk. I got far too close to him over 10 miles at the weekend and he knows now ill beat him on a slightly hilly course. So he slunk off to frankfurt without even conceeding . Shameful. Still, no more big talk I suppose.

dukeraoul

theboyblunder wrote: »

He was in a smack down challenge with me for the DCM to stop his big sisters pearse talk. I got far too close to him over 10 miles at the weekend and he knows now ill beat him on a slightly hilly course. So he slunk off to frankfurt without even conceeding . Shameful. Still, no more big talk I suppose.

Hahahaha no sisters left for me to beat. I'll spot you 3 mins how's that sound?

dukeraoul

dublin runner wrote: »

Another good man down. I may be the last man standing in Dublin!

What was your main reason for choosing Frankfurt? Flatter course, deeper field? Our 20 mile run (mainly running the 1st half of Dublin) reminded me that Dublin is not the easiest course. The weather on the day really can play havoc, particularly the winds.

What's the goal for Athlone? My plan (tbc!) is to start out at 5.50 a mile and see where that gets me. Thinking of doing a mini HM session next week. Possibly 3x2miles @HMP.

All of the above DR. I just don't like the course at all and had entered Frankfurt last yr so have decided to go with it. I think travelling for a marathon is an advantage for me as well as travel tends to relax me .

I have that session down as well for next week maybe meet up for it ? Goal for me in Athlone is to run a hell of a lot better than FD!

theboyblunder

dukeraoul wrote: »

Hahahaha no sisters left for me to beat. I'll spot you 3 mins how's that sound?

Or you could just race me and lose like a man! Ill shut up now and not derail further.

dukeraoul

theboyblunder wrote: »

Or you could just race me and lose like a man! Ill shut up now and not derail further.

In 30 yrs time would I rather tell the grand kids I ran a 2:39 or that I beat the Captain of some Ra affiliated hobby jogging outfit named after the biggest right wing wanker in the history of Irish Republicanism- who until recently had a female as the club record holder at every distance up to the marathon ..., hmmmm

Make that a 4 min handicap TBb and I'll give yer boy Liam 3 mins..

dublin runner

dukeraoul wrote: »

All of the above DR. I just don't like the course at all and had entered Frankfurt last yr so have decided to go with it. I think travelling for a marathon is an advantage for me as well as travel tends to relax me .

I have that session down as well for next week maybe meet up for it ? Goal for me in Athlone is to run a hell of a lot better than FD!

Athlone is a quality race. Might try to hang on to you as long as possible! I'd be the exact opposite regarding travel. If sucks the life out of me.

Cool. Fire me a text. Probably had to be early in the week.