Compulsion to convert

floggg

catallus wrote: »

Don't be facetious, I'm sure you know what an allegory is.

That's such a cop out. For well over 2000 years genesis was the literal word of god. At no point did "god" or any of his prophets ever give any indication that it wasn't literally true, or ever take any step to correct the mistaken belief that it was.

Then, scientists and biologists come along and prove that it actually wasn't, and suddenly Christians pulling the "allegory" card, and looking at the rest of us like we are the stupid ones for not knowing it all along.

catallus

floggg wrote: »

That's such a cop out. For well over 2000 years genesis was the literal word of god. At no point did "god" or any of his prophets ever give any indication that it wasn't literally true, or ever take any step to correct the mistaken belief that it was.

Then, scientists and biologists come along and prove that it actually wasn't, and suddenly Christians pulling the "allegory" card, and looking at the rest of us like we are the stupid ones for not knowing it all along.

Nonsense.

ScumLord wrote: »

Since when is the old testament supposed to be an allegory?

Since always. Much the same as the bigbang theory is our modern allegory.

ScumLord wrote: »

When it all got shown for the work of fiction that it is?

It isn't entirely fiction, you know this! Seriously, philosophers and historians have shown it to be true.

ScumLord wrote: »

It sure is. So you agree we should dismiss ancient cultures values?

Why would we dismiss it? That is the very attitude of the nescience I'm always banging on about! Many ancient cultures had taboos against men being in relationships with men because they deemed it a threat to their civilisation, and not without reason (mainly sustaining population). Such considerations don't apply to modern societies but using that sort of thing to completely negate past cultures is vandalism.

Links234

catallus wrote: »

Why would we dismiss it? That is the very attitude of the nescience I'm always banging on about! Many ancient cultures had taboos against men being in relationships with men because they deemed it a threat to their civilisation, and not without reason (mainly sustaining population). Such considerations don't apply to modern societies but using that sort of thing to completely negate past cultures is vandalism.

Many ancient cultures practiced slavery as well.

catallus

Links234 wrote: »

Many ancient cultures practiced slavery as well.

Slavery is still extant in most of the world today.

Interestingly, in the USA at least at the end of the 19th century, today's normal work practices would be considered indentured slavery.

Daith

catallus wrote: »

Why would we dismiss it? That is the very attitude of the nescience I'm always banging on about! Many ancient cultures had taboos against men being in relationships with men because they deemed it a threat to their civilisation, and not without reason (mainly sustaining population). Such considerations don't apply to modern societies but using that sort of thing to completely negate past cultures is vandalism.

Nonsense.

Applying fairy tales to modern life is rubbish though.

Grayson

catallus wrote: »

It isn't entirely fiction, you know this! Seriously, philosophers and historians have shown it to be true.

As someone who studied history and philosophy in college I'd just like to point out that that is a complete and utter lie (Probably the only time those subjects will ever be useful in any practical manner.And hands up I only have one year of history, but I do have a couple of degrees in philosophy).

The old testament is a load of bollox. Historically speaking pretty much all of the characters never existed. Most of the big bits like Noah’s flood and the plagues never happened. The rest can't be proven at all.

Philosophically speaking, you'd have to really stretch the epistemological definition of truth to fit in what you're saying.

Ethically speaking it's a disaster. It condones rape, murder, incest and genocide. It's a horrific book that's far worse than nearly every other religious text, for example the Koran.

You might find Thugee cultists have a book that's worse.

kylith

catallus wrote: »

It isn't entirely fiction, you know this! Seriously, philosophers and historians have shown it to be true.

Which bits have been shown to be true?

catallus wrote: »

Why would we dismiss it? That is the very attitude of the nescience I'm always banging on about! Many ancient cultures had taboos against men being in relationships with men because they deemed it a threat to their civilisation, and not without reason (mainly sustaining population). Such considerations don't apply to modern societies but using that sort of thing to completely negate past cultures is vandalism.

There is no need to negate past cultures, we can certainly look on them for what they are, but we should certainly not allow middle eastern bronze age values to influence how a 21st century European country should be run.

Also, the idea that same-sex relationships would cause a population crash is ridiculous, imo. That would necessitate that people who were not homosexual become involved in homosexual relationships and cease heterosexual relations and breeding. What reason would someone have to do that?

It's as silly an idea as the Fundie Christians saying that gay marriage will undermine hetero marriages. The only way someone could think that straight men would abandon their wives/girlfriends and in favour of homosexual relationships is if they themselves were closeted homosexuals and are projecting their desires onto other people.

ScumLord

catallus wrote: »

Since always. Much the same as the bigbang theory is our modern allegory.

The old testament was taken as "the word of god/ the truth" up until it was shown to be a story, or an attempt by ancient peoples to explain the world around them. It was the truth to them.

It isn't entirely fiction, you know this! Seriously, philosophers and historians have shown it to be true.

So it's not fiction but it's an allegory. Which is it?

Why would we dismiss it? That is the very attitude of the nescience I'm always banging on about! Many ancient cultures had taboos against men being in relationships with men because they deemed it a threat to their civilisation, and not without reason (mainly sustaining population).

Many ancient cultures had absolutely no problem at all with man on man action, it was as much a part of their culture as having a wife and children. The Spartans being a prime example. Having children was your obligation to your town, you had to do it. You probably had no choice in who got assigned to you as a wife ether.

Reekwind

floggg wrote: »

That's such a cop out. For well over 2000 years genesis was the literal word of god. At no point did "god" or any of his prophets ever give any indication that it wasn't literally true, or ever take any step to correct the mistaken belief that it was.

Then, scientists and biologists come along and prove that it actually wasn't, and suddenly Christians pulling the "allegory" card, and looking at the rest of us like we are the stupid ones for not knowing it all along.

Yeah, try telling that to Augustine of Hippo, for one. There's long been a tradition within the Church that accepted the allegorical nature of Genesis. Indeed, scriptural fundamentalism is largely a modern development.

tritium

catallus wrote: »

It is too easy to patly dismiss the teachings of ancient cultures by using today's moral standards.

He's not talking about today's moral standards, he referred to the scientific fact that homosexual behaviour is a natural occurrence across a variety of species. And religion doesn't claim to be the teaching of ancient cultures, it claims to be the word of god.

Since you mention allegory, I'll assume you disagree with more fundamentalist Christians. Tell me, why do you think your brand of Christianity is more correct than theirs?

floggg

catallus wrote: »

Nonsense.



Since always. Much the same as the bigbang theory is our modern allegory.



It isn't entirely fiction, you know this! Seriously, philosophers and historians have shown it to be true.




Why would we dismiss it? That is the very attitude of the nescience I'm always banging on about! Many ancient cultures had taboos against men being in relationships with men because they deemed it a threat to their civilisation, and not without reason (mainly sustaining population). Such considerations don't apply to modern societies but using that sort of thing to completely negate past cultures is vandalism.

What in the world are you on about?

The Big Bang theory isn't an allegory. Regardless of whether you believe it or not, it's proponents believe it is literally true.

It isn't a allegory or symbolic for anything.

And as far as I'm aware genesis was never an allegory until it was proved to be complete bull****.

If you asked the question any time up until the last two or three hundred years, you would be told with absolute certainty by Christians that it was the literal truth.


And as for your cultural vandalism bull****. My god.

I particularly loved the nonsense that homosexuality was a threat to ancient civilization. the Hellenic and roman societies were the two most significant societies in history and they were gayer than the Eurovision.

Your posts in this thread are proof that you can coat bull**** in big words all you want, but at the end of the days it's still going taste like ****.

jill_valentine

Can you imagine actually having to work with the chap in the article?

floggg

Reekwind wrote: »

Yeah, try telling that to Augustine of Hippo, for one. There's long been a tradition within the Church that accepted the allegorical nature of Genesis. Indeed, scriptural fundamentalism is largely a modern development.

Any links? I will gladly stand corrected if I am wrong.

Would I be right in staying that his was a minority position though? Certainly the treatment of the Darwin et all, and Gailelo showed a strong resistance to any suggestion that genesis should not be taken as the literal truth.

catallus

I think it would be a pleasure to work with someone of such firm opinions.

WilyCoyote

OP!
Since I discovered atheism there has been a void in my life. Something missing. Please send details of $70K windfall and how best to harvest it in this life.

BTW, I loved your De Belle Gallico. Far better than Aeneid and up their with the soft porn Odyssey.

Heil Hail!

ScumLord

catallus wrote: »

I think it would be a pleasure to work with someone of such firm opinions.

Really? You wouldn't mind listening to me trying to convert you and everyone away from religion all day, every day?

catallus

ScumLord wrote: »

Really? You wouldn't mind listening to me trying to convert you and everyone away from religion all day, every day?

Why wouldn't I?!?


I live for this stuff

Imagine it, Scumlord, we could harangue each other until we're in the grave.:pac:

ScumLord

catallus wrote: »

I live for this stuff

Ok, well put it this way. Imagine something that bores you or you simply don't want to talk about, would you like me at you about it all day?

catallus

I could listen to you talk about paint drying, SL.

Anyways, I think this guy should be hailed as a hero for his unflinching commitment to his faith.

eviltwin

He'll probably struggle to find work now, who would hire him? Would you want your customers to be lectured on religion every time they use your service? You wouldn't have customers for long.

Knasher

floggg wrote: »

What in the world are you on about?

The Big Bang theory isn't an allegory. Regardless of whether you believe it or not, it's proponents believe it is literally true.

It isn't a allegory or symbolic for anything.

I think he might have been referring to the actual term "big bang" theory rather than the actual theory behind it. Of course that would be a metaphor and not allegory.

Vojera

eviltwin wrote: »

He'll probably struggle to find work now, who would hire him? Would you want your customers to be lectured on religion every time they use your service? You wouldn't have customers for long.

Sales assistant in a Veritas shop?

Grayson

Knasher wrote: »

I think he might have been referring to the actual term "big bang" theory rather than the actual theory behind it. Of course that would be a metaphor and not allegory.

You mean the fact that there's wan't actually a very loud bang?

catallus

The big bang is a story we tell ourselves to explain the beginning of the universe.

Now, if you believe that the universe began like that then I've got a few bridges I'd like to sell you.

ScumLord

catallus wrote: »

The big bang is a story we tell ourselves to explain the beginning of the universe.

Now, if you believe that the universe began like that then I've got a few bridges I'd like to sell you.

It's not a matter of belief, the evidence points towards the universe starting from a single point. It's basically an educated guess, rather than just pure speculation like you get with religions.

It wouldn't surprise me to find out it's inaccurate in places given the fact we're working with a pretty small section of the universe. But that doesn't mean it's wrong or that religion is right.

pablomakaveli

catallus wrote: »

The big bang is a story we tell ourselves to explain the beginning of the universe.

Now, if you believe that the universe began like that then I've got a few bridges I'd like to sell you.

It isn't just a story. It's a conclusion from scientific study and research. It's doesn't come from the imagination of some guy who died a few thousand years ago who based his conclusion on nothing whatsoever.

Pherekydes

catallus wrote: »

I could listen to you talk about paint drying, SL.

Anyways, I think this guy should be hailed as a hero for his unflinching commitment to his faith.

What PopePalpatine said earlier is 100% true. :rolleyes:

kingchess

good chance that he is unbalanced in some way,Imagine if your co-worker could not stop talking about leprechauns(I was going to say fairies but that might be taken the wrong way)and kept telling you how great they were and how we should live our lives according to their rules, He should be considered mentally ill and seek treatment,

Calibos

ScumLord wrote: »

It's not a matter of belief, the evidence points towards the universe starting from a single point. It's basically an educated guess, rather than just pure speculation like you get with religions.

It wouldn't surprise me to find out it's inaccurate in places given the fact we're working with a pretty small section of the universe. But that doesn't mean it's wrong or that religion is right.

RE: Catalus, I'm convinced this dude is actually one of those "Atheists are as bad as Theists (and I feel superior to both)" psuedo intellectual hipsters, who is getting his jollies trolling the non religious side with POE'esque religious pronouncements. Maybe its just me but in the wording of a lot of these pronouncements I almost detect a 'tongue in cheek' vibe.

P_1

catallus wrote: »

Will you permit me to pray for you, Spacetime?

You can pray for whoever you want to in your time. What you can't do is preach at and proselytise people when you're supposed to be doing your job. The same way that I can't roll my eyes at you and mention 'fairy tales' when I'm doing my job.

Bonkers judgement in my eyes and potentially opens a massive can of worms.