Ireland U20 2015 6 nations and junior world cup

sydthebeat

Georgia are in the next 2 championships, i think

sydneybound

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

No. World Rugby wont want to go backwards and cutting down the 20s championship doesn't help development.
We're not ready to go to 16 teams yet but that's the future not shrinking down to 8 teams

Completely agree, no point in shrinking the event. Hopefully when it's 16 teams it will still be somewhat competitive

wise7

shuffol wrote: »

Huge credit must go to Carolan and the players for securing our third best finish in the history of the competition.

don't agree with that. We didn't put teams away, i.e. scoring winning bonus points when we should have against Argentina and Scotland in the pool stages. This is a straightforward mathematical tournament which demands 2 wins with 2 bonus pts and 1 losing bonus pt. to have a very good chance of a semi-final place, as we did last year even though we lost to France (reigning 6N champions at the time)in our opening match, but secured a losing bonus point. Ireland did not play a good enough style of attacking rugby and that comes down to the coaches in no small way and with some responsibility on the players as well.

The Lost Sheep

sydthebeat wrote: »

Georgia are in the next 2 championships, i think

In normal circumstances they wouldn't be but as they're hosts in 2017 I believe they will be in the competition in both of the next 2 years

sydneybound wrote: »

Completely agree, no point in shrinking the event. Hopefully when it's 16 teams it will still be somewhat competitive

May be a while before 16 teams but it will really aid world game in time as it will help with expanding senior cup to 24 teams in time

Hopefully IRFU look to host this in coming years. Only ourselves, Scotland and Australia of the 6N/4N are yet to host this event since the change to just 20s in 2008

bradders90

Sheedy is eligible i believe next year so who knows, we might have an exile vs exile battle for the 10 shirt (Brett Connon fro Newcastle Falcons is the other i am talking about.)

The Lost Sheep

bradders90 wrote: »

Sheedy is eligible i believe next year so who knows, we might have an exile vs exile battle for the 10 shirt (Brett Connon fro Newcastle Falcons is the other i am talking about.)

Sheedy isn't underage next year. He's born in 1995.

bradders90

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Sheedy isn't underage next year. He's born in 1995.

Odd, you usually have 2 years of eligibility after leaving school, which he did so last year.

The Lost Sheep

bradders90 wrote: »

Odd, you usually have 2 years of eligibility after leaving school, which he did so last year.

Its not odd at all and most don't have 2 years eligibility after leaving school - certainly in Ireland with schools cup now being an under 19 competition. In England schools competitions are played on a different age eligibility date and still most wouldn't have 2 years eligibility after leaving school

leinster blue boys

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Sheedy has been brought up a few times. It wasn't a missed opportunity. He had been picked for Wales 20s but dropped out as he would have had to declare for Wales if he had played for them. He may not want to decide which country he plays with yet.

Lost sheep,you constantly keep saying sheedy maybe doesn't want to commit to s country yet ,as I have previously said I can confirm he withdrew from wales 20s,because he was hoping Ireland would take a look at him,he is 100% committed to Ireland,to be selected as fly half for wales is no mean achievement ,and for Ireland not to even look at the lad is a joke

The Lost Sheep

leinster blue boys wrote: »

Lost sheep,you constantly keep saying sheedy maybe doesn't want to commit to s country yet, as I have previously said I can confirm he withdrew from wales 20s because he was hoping Ireland would take a look at him, he is 100% committed to Ireland, to be selected as fly half for wales is no mean achievement and for Ireland not to even look at the lad is a joke

It isn't a joke Ireland didn't look at him. He didn't play for Wales despite being selected for their squad as if he had played for them he would have been tied to Wales as the welsh under 20 side is the nominated second side in Wales.
How could Ireland have picked him for 6Ns when he didn't play interpro's for a province, was in the welsh set up prior to the 6Ns, is playing in England week in week out and therefore not being seen by Irish coaches anywhere near on a regular basis

shuffol

wise7 wrote: »

don't agree with that. We didn't put teams away, i.e. scoring winning bonus points when we should have against Argentina and Scotland in the pool stages. This is a straightforward mathematical tournament which demands 2 wins with 2 bonus pts and 1 losing bonus pt. to have a very good chance of a semi-final place, as we did last year even though we lost to France (reigning 6N champions at the time)in our opening match, but secured a losing bonus point. Ireland did not play a good enough style of attacking rugby and that comes down to the coaches in no small way and with some responsibility on the players as well.

It was tongue in cheek, I know this years been a bit of a disappointment relative to expectations beforehand however it's a mark of our improvement that a campaign that's widely accepted as poor secured us our 3rd best finish.

English Lurker

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

How could Ireland have picked him for 6Ns when he didn't play interpro's for a province, was in the welsh set up prior to the 6Ns, is playing in England week in week out and therefore not being seen by Irish coaches anywhere near on a regular basis

What's the difference between him and George McGuigan?

leinster blue boys

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

It isn't a joke Ireland didn't look at him. He didn't play for Wales despite being selected for their squad as if he had played for them he would have been tied to Wales as the welsh under 20 side is the nominated second side in Wales.
How could Ireland have picked him for 6Ns when he didn't play interpro's for a province, was in the welsh set up prior to the 6Ns, is playing in England week in week out lost sheepand therefore not being seen by Irish coaches anywhere near on a regular basis

Lost sheep,with all due respect you avent a clue,like was said in a following thread what is the difference between sheedy and George mcquigan

---

nothing,the lad was in the welsh set up as experience,waiting to see if Ireland came ,anyway what bout Ross Moriarty,came right through age grade with England ,even winning 2 20s world cups ,now wales have nabbed him,and when you say didn't play interpros ,that shouldn't matter,you seem very biased cos lad is playing his rugby in england,like you said in previous threads you avent seen sheedy play ,I suggest you google him an see the impressive write ups on him,if he was looked at by ireland ,he would definitely push Byrne as best young fly half around

irishbucsfan

Wait, I don't understand at all. What makes people think Sheedy is interested in playing for Ireland?

FrannoFan

Where did this idea of playing 20's tied you to a country?
7's
National team
Designated second team vs another designated second team in an IRB sanctioned game

These are the only ways to lock in a player.
Was an issue a few years ago where Wales claimed 20's was their second team but it was thrown out. Involved a Connacht signing. Can't recall the players name. Since no other nation used 20's as designated seconds team they hadn't met the criteria.

Buer

A number of teams have their U20 side as their designated second side. Wales, France and South Africa being the most prominent.

leinster blue boys

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Wait, I don't understand at all. What makes people think Sheedy is interested in playing for Ireland?

like I said previously,i can guarantee you sheedy is 100% interested and would be committed to playing for Ireland.i just hope we don't lose him like we lost pierse o connor who was in Englands 20s squad ,after coming through Irelands age grade with exiles,you would swear we got loads of strength in depth coming through

leinster blue boys

Buer wrote: »

A number of teams have their U20 side as their designated second side. Wales, France and South Africa being the most prominent.

100% correct, that is why Wales were gonna cap Sheedy in 6 nations v France, they then knew he was tied to them ,Wales were aware of Sheedys links with Ireland and even England are monitoring the situation through residency ,if you look on walesonline and put the lad sheedys name in rugby,you will be able to read all bout when he dropped out of there u20s

wise7

leinster blue boys wrote: »

like I said previously,i can guarantee you sheedy is 100% interested and would be committed to playing for Ireland.i just hope we don't lose him like we lost pierse o connor who was in Englands 20s squad ,after coming through Irelands age grade with exiles,you would swear we got loads of strength in depth coming through

Its not as if we are totally devoid of home grown talent at outhalf that we need to be so concerned at pursuing the possibility of securing an exile who has not declared his intentions in regard to his bucket multiple options. Let him declare and then we can entertain the possibility but this speculation and implied 'conspiracy to ignore' is futile. Anyway, apart from Byrne, who has been the consistent front runner for the past 2 years at u-20's and has looked very good with Leinster A, there is of course JJ Hanrahan who is 3 years older than him, Jackson is still quite young and then there is also Quinlan and O'Hagan (same age as Byrne) plus Carberry (probably better at 15 although I would love to see how he would go at 9).

irishbucsfan

Sheedy may be interested in playing 20s for us, but it's nice and easy to play 20s for us and then disappear back off to Bristol afterwards and never return, thanks to eligibility rules.

leinster blue boys

wise7 wrote: »

Its not as if we are totally devoid of home grown talent at outhalf that we need to be so concerned at pursuing the possibility of securing an exile who has not declared his intentions in regard to his bucket multiple options. Let him declare and then we can entertain the possibility but this speculation and implied 'conspiracy to ignore' is futile. Anyway, apart from Byrne, who has been the consistent front runner for the past 2 years at u-20's and has looked very good with Leinster A, there is of course JJ Hanrahan who is 3 years older than him, Jackson is still quite young and then there is also Quinlan and O'Hagan (same age as Byrne) plus Carberry (probably better at 15 although I would love to see how he would go at 9).

Wise 7 really interesting reply,surely its not a question of pursuing an exile,the lad qualifies for Ireland,so has as much right as the next Irishman to play for his country, why would a 19 year old openly declare when he obviously is not a big name ,I'm suggesting Irish coaches and selectors should pursue a massive talent,and this'conspiracy to ignore ' suggestion by you hasn't even been mentioned,and if you think those players you sed is a conveyor belt of fly halves only jj hanrahan is excellent,and hes gone to Northampton ,you cannot be setting your sights very high

wise7

leinster blue boys wrote: »

Wise 7 really interesting reply,surely its not a question of pursuing an exile,the lad qualifies for Ireland,so has as much right as the next Irishman to play for his country, why would a 19 year old openly declare when he obviously is not a big name ,I'm suggesting Irish coaches and selectors should pursue a massive talent,and this'conspiracy to ignore ' suggestion by you hasn't even been mentioned,and if you think those players you sed is a conveyor belt of fly halves only jj hanrahan is excellent,and hes gone to Northampton ,you cannot be setting your sights very high

I don't buy your nationalist argument about his right to play for his country because he hasn't decided which is his country. He has courted Wales and is now playing in England, so it is more a case of which country will enhance his career. I didn't say you mentioned a conspiracy to ignore, I said you implied one which I think is accurate. On the talent front I think you 'dissing' the 10's named in my post compared to a 'massive talent' as per your assessment, is disingenuous to players who have already proved what they have got on the pitch in Irish representative, Provincial A's and AIL matches.

The Lost Sheep

leinster blue boys wrote: »

Lost sheep,with all due respect you avent a clue,like was said in a following thread what is the difference between sheedy and George mcquigan

---

nothing,the lad was in the welsh set up as experience,waiting to see if Ireland came, anyway what bout Ross Moriarty,came right through age grade with England, even winning 2 20s world cups, now wales have nabbed him, and when you say didn't play interpros, that shouldn't matter, you seem very biased cos lad is playing his rugby in england,like you said in previous threads you avent seen sheedy play. I suggest you google him an see the impressive write ups on him,if he was looked at by ireland, he would definitely push Byrne as best young fly half around

Why would the Irish coaches know he was in Welsh set up just for experience?
If Irish coaches see him going to welsh set up. Why/How would they pick him?
I'm not biased against anyone playing in England/elsewhere however you will not be seen anywhere near as much if playing in England. The interpro's are screening games for the international squad and national squad is primarily picked based on performances in the interpro's.

FrannoFan wrote: »

Where did this idea of playing 20's tied you to a country?
7's
National team
Designated second team vs another designated second team in an IRB sanctioned game

These are the only ways to lock in a player.
Was an issue a few years ago where Wales claimed 20's was their second team but it was thrown out. Involved a Connacht signing. Can't recall the players name. Since no other nation used 20's as designated seconds team they hadn't met the criteria.

Jarvis was Connacht guy. Some countries have under 20s as designated second side and if they meet then player is locked in. Both Wales and France have both had 20s as second team at times over recent years IIRC

leinster blue boys

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Sheedy may be interested in playing 20s for us, but it's nice and easy to play 20s for us and then disappear back off to Bristol afterwards and never return, thanks to eligibility rules.

Wat a pathetic answer,who said it was just 20s he wanted to play for,like i have said in previous threads he is 100% committed to Ireland ,an to suggest he would disappear back to Bristol an never to return is very childish ,

Bridge93

leinster blue boys wrote: »

Wat a pathetic answer,who said it was just 20s he wanted to play for,like i have said in previous threads he is 100% committed to Ireland ,an to suggest he would disappear back to Bristol an never to return is very childish ,

Can you show us where he said he is 100% committed to Ireland? It would be great if he was but I haven't seen it anywhere.

leinster blue boys

wise7 wrote: »

I don't buy your nationalist argument about his right to play for his country because he hasn't decided which is his country. He has courted Wales and is now playing in England, so it is more a case of which country will enhance his career. I didn't say you mentioned a conspiracy to ignore, I said you implied one which I think is accurate. On the talent front I think you 'dissing' the 10's named in my post compared to a 'massive talent' as per your assessment, is disingenuous to players who have already proved what they have got on the pitch in Irish representative, Provincial A's and AIL matches.

Like I have said previously ,sheedy is fully committed to Ireland,and when he went on some camps with wales 20s prior to 6 nations,it was pure experience he was after ,especially after he was told that if he played v France,he would then be tied down to wales,hence his withdrawal ,so for you to say he courted wales is off the mark ,and you also say he is now playin his rugby in England,he went to the renown famous Millfield school in England where he captained there first xv,before immediately signing a contract with Bristol,so basically has been in the English system for 3 years,I think before making comments people should do there homework ,the bottom line what I am saying is the lad has enormous potential ,an That is not me saying it ,but people who know there rugby have stated

wise7

leinster blue boys wrote: »

Wat a pathetic answer,who said it was just 20s he wanted to play for,like i have said in previous threads he is 100% committed to Ireland ,an to suggest he would disappear back to Bristol an never to return is very childish ,

You're beginning to sound like his agent!

leinster blue boys

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Why would the Irish coaches know he was in Welsh set up just for experience?
If Irish coaches see him going to welsh set up. Why/How would they pick him?
I'm not biased against anyone playing in England/elsewhere however you will not be seen anywhere near as much if playing in England. The interpro's are screening games for the international squad and national squad is primarily picked based on performances in the interpro's.

Jarvis was Connacht guy. Some countries have under 20s as designated second side and if they meet then player is locked in. Both Wales and France have both had 20s as second team at times over recent years IIRC

The exiles coaches ,Mark Blair is fully aware on sheedys allegiance,that should of been enough,he should of been in contact with irfu

leinster blue boys

wise7 wrote: »

You're beginning to sound like his agent!

Another pathetic answer ,wish I was I would make alot of money off the lad,at end of day u want best for Irish rugby

irishbucsfan

leinster blue boys wrote: »

Wat a pathetic answer,who said it was just 20s he wanted to play for,like i have said in previous threads he is 100% committed to Ireland ,an to suggest he would disappear back to Bristol an never to return is very childish ,

I would say calling someone's answer "pathetic" is quite childish. Good luck.

wise7

leinster blue boys wrote: »

Another pathetic answer ,wish I was I would make alot of money off the lad,at end of day u want best for Irish rugby

Okedoke! I think we'll leave it there so!

RuggieBear

Keep it civil folks

bradders90

leinster blue boys wrote: »

Wat a pathetic answer,who said it was just 20s he wanted to play for,like i have said in previous threads he is 100% committed to Ireland ,an to suggest he would disappear back to Bristol an never to return is very childish ,

Do you know the guy personally or something? How can you possibly know he is 100% committed to Ireland. Also he didn't play for Ireland u19's like people have said; he played for Ireland u19 7's

leinster blue boys

bradders90 wrote: »

Do you know the guy personally or something? How can you possibly know he is 100% committed to Ireland. Also he didn't play for Ireland u19's like people have said; he played for Ireland u19 7's

I know the family very well,an I have never said he played for Ireland 19s,I have said u 19s 7 s

Buer

leinster blue boys wrote: »

I know the family very well,an I have never said he played for Ireland 19s,I have said u 19s 7 s

Previously you did say he played for Ireland U19.

Previously you didn't know why he pulled out of the Welsh squad (which would suggest you don't know the family very well).

we missed a massive opportunity without Byrne to get callum sheedy of Bristol involved,hes already played for Ireland u 19s

was selected for wales u20s this 6 nations but withdrew ,hopefully to keep his chances of irish honours open

leinster blue boys

Buer wrote: »

Previously you did say he played for Ireland U19.

Previously you didn't know why he pulled out of the Welsh squad (which would suggest you don't know the family very well).

Buer,in your quote you left off 7s,where I had said he had previously played Ireland 19 s,check it back ,and to question wether I know the family ,who do you think you are ,I didn't want to get to involved earlier ,cos i was suzzing out the feeling on the thread ,that's why I didn't say too much

Buer

leinster blue boys wrote: »

Buer,in your quote you left off 7s,where I had said he had previously played Ireland 19 s,check it back ,and to question wether I know the family ,who do you think you are ,I didn't want to get to involved earlier ,cos i was suzzing out the feeling on the thread ,that's why I didn't say too much

This is your full post.

you mention all these backs ,and say its one of our most exciting,yet we looked clueless at times;neither of our fly halves attacked the gain line or got our backs going,if we had a dec ent fly half who knows how far we could of gone.Like I have said in previous threads,we missed a massive opportunity without Byrne to get callum sheedy of Bristol involved,hes already played for Ireland u 19s,an his distribution would of brought our centres into the game far more,a definite missed oppurtunity

leinster blue boys

Buer wrote: »

This is your full post.

Full apologies bout not mentioning the word 7s,but who are you to question wether I know him personally

.ak

leinster blue boys wrote: »

Full apologies bout not mentioning the word 7s,but who are you to question wether I know him personally

leinster blue boys keep it civil. No need for the snappy tone.

leinster blue boys

.ak wrote: »

leinster blue boys keep it civil. No need for the snappy tone.

Its not a snappy tone,just you questioned wether I new lad ,thought you were being rather belittling,no probs tho

.ak

leinster blue boys wrote: »

Its not a snappy tone,just you questioned wether I new lad ,thought you were being rather belittling,no probs tho

I didn't question anything - I'm just the moderator for the forum. Please don't reply to these warnings - we'll give you the benefit of doubt seeing as you're new but please don't do it again - read our charter for a full listing of rules.

RedemptionZ

Bit of an off topic question here: But how do New Zealand produce so much underage talent? If we had any of their backs they'd probably be touted as a future international star. I know the islander contingent mature that bit quicker but even still, the skill level seems to be much higher with the ball in hand, forwards and backs alike.

I know they use sevens a lot more than we would, Ioane, arguably the best player in the tournament, played for the NZ sevens last year. And he's an 8, not a winger or a 15 which would probably be the expected position for a sevens player. But there must be more that we can copy from them.

According to this (IRB, 2011) we actually have more registered players than them.

ArmchairQB

RedemptionZ wrote: »

Bit of an off topic question here: But how do New Zealand produce so much underage talent? If we had any of their backs they'd probably be touted as a future international star. I know the islander contingent mature that bit quicker but even still, the skill level seems to be much higher with the ball in hand, forwards and backs alike.

I know they use sevens a lot more than we would, Ioane, arguably the best player in the tournament, played for the NZ sevens last year. And he's an 8, not a winger or a 15 which would probably be the expected position for a sevens player. But there must be more that we can copy from them.

According to this (IRB, 2011) we actually have more registered players than them.

From visiting NZ a few times their early development is much more progressed than ours & they are learning proper full on rugby skills from 7 years of age. Every Saturday in any town throughout NZ you will see the parks full of kids playing rugby, I have seen 7/8 year olds doing proper tackling, rucking, clearing out etc. We have a philosophy of participation and not much emphasis on winning at mini level but they are all about competition and being as good as you can be very early on. (not saying our approach is incorrect just different) Coaching at that level also seems to be way advanced. It is also their national sport so very few other distractions (imagine no GAA in Ireland and all those lads only played rugby) and they do tend to develop into big men down there, steak and eggs for breakfast is great as well

FrannoFan

The register ed player thing is a bit misguiding as well. We count everyone registered everywhere. Most schools register their entire student body even though a lot don't participate. The registered % in NZ are the best athletes as they do not have competition from other sports. Our best athletes are spread across Gaelic, hurling, soccer rugby etc.

ArmchairQB

FrannoFan wrote: »

The register ed player thing is a bit misguiding as well. We count everyone registered everywhere. Most schools register their entire student body even though a lot don't participate. The registered % in NZ are the best athletes as they do not have competition from other sports. Our best athletes are spread across Gaelic, hurling, soccer rugby etc.

Absolutely our figures are taken from the IRFU Clubhouse sysytem that clubs use which is a bit of a mess with double entries, different spelling of names entered a few times and very hard to remove or delete someone from the system or correct wrongly entered names, dob etc. A work in progress and in fairness is getting better every year but figures are not near accurate as a result

The Lost Sheep

RedemptionZ wrote: »

Bit of an off topic question here: But how do New Zealand produce so much underage talent? If we had any of their backs they'd probably be touted as a future international star. I know the islander contingent mature that bit quicker but even still, the skill level seems to be much higher with the ball in hand, forwards and backs alike.

I know they use sevens a lot more than we would, Ioane, arguably the best player in the tournament, played for the NZ sevens last year. And he's an 8, not a winger or a 15 which would probably be the expected position for a sevens player. But there must be more that we can copy from them.

According to this (IRB, 2011) we actually have more registered players than them.

Better coaching, they get more of the best athletes in NZ playing rugby than we do in Ireland. Different ethos to playing and coaching.

FrannoFan wrote: »

The register ed player thing is a bit misguiding as well. We count everyone registered everywhere. Most schools register their entire student body even though a lot don't participate. The registered % in NZ are the best athletes as they do not have competition from other sports. Our best athletes are spread across Gaelic, hurling, soccer rugby etc.

The registered players is slightly misguided but the figures are more correct now than they used to be.

ArmchairQB wrote: »

Absolutely our figures are taken from the IRFU Clubhouse sysytem that clubs use which is a bit of a mess with double entries, different spelling of names entered a few times and very hard to remove or delete someone from the system or correct wrongly entered names, dob etc. A work in progress and in fairness is getting better every year but figures are not near accurate as a result

Clubhouse system has improved in last couple of seasons though which is good and it isn't "very hard to remove or delete someone from the system" from my experience of it.
If you don't think the figures are far from accurate how far off do you think they are?

bradders90

Posted it on the ulster forum but may as well post it hear as well.
Am hearing that Alex Kane (Ireland u19/mens 7s and Exile - Wimbledon College) has joined Ulster's acad/sub academy.

The Lost Sheep

3 of the New Zealand squad that won this are in the New Zealand Maori squad that play Fiji and New Zealand Barbarians squad next month
Akira Ioane, Otere Black and Sean Wainui
Ioanes younger brother Rieko(only 18) also picked in the squad.
Saturday 11 July v Fiji in Suva
Saturday 18 July v New Zealand Barbarians, Eden Park

Interesting to see these playing here...