Schools Cup 2014/2015 *mod warning post 1*

SaveOurLyric

spillit67 wrote: »

The only rugby programme which remains strong perpetually is Blackrock, for obvious reasons.

What reasons are they ?

(Sorry, just not obvious to me).

RedemptionZ

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

What reasons are they ?

(Sorry, just not obvious to me).

Highest number of pupils by a fair bit, combined with best facilities, most money available to invest in coaching, they have a junior school where kids are playing rugby 3-5 times a week from infants and they can offer boarding so are able to recruit/poach players out of dublin by offering them scholarships.

GSOIRL

rugby2345 wrote: »

Anyone have a link to the game today?

You can follow the score live on irishschoolsrugby.ie

Quint2010

12-6 to Rock after 20 mins

funtime93

Quint2010 wrote: »

12-6 to Rock after 20 mins

Anyone got a link??

GSOIRL

funtime93 wrote: »

Anyone got a link??

Not live. I'm watching Munster while following on website I named above.

spillit67

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

What reasons are they ?

(Sorry, just not obvious to me).

Big junior school
Boarding school
190 per year (closest would be Belvo/Terenure with max 150)
Lot's of pitches on site

Disagree on the coaching thing, don't think the Blackrock coaching was particularly strong for a few years. Compared to Michaels and Clongowes of late I think they had much better depth all the way down to 13s.

GSOIRL

Long way back for Nure now. 19-6 Rock

Inspector Coptoor

39-11 to Rock.
Last couple of minutes

Quint2010

Well done Rock but really that was like an under 20 team against a JCT in size differential.

The Pheasant2

Quint2010 wrote: »

Well done Rock but really that was like an under 20 team against a JCT in size differential.

In Terenure's favour presumably? There were only 6 starters from 6th year in the Blackrock side.

Hagz

Really impressed with the Blackrock 12 and the winger Kilgallen. Brilliant solo try by the 12 and both with beautiful offloads. Overall I thought it looked like quite a small Blackrock side, probably because there are a lot of 5th years in the team.

OceanSixteen

Apart from Kilgallen & Dixon wasnt very impressed with Blackrock at all, will be surprised if they do much this year, however it could be just first round nerves

JPCN1

OceanSixteen wrote: »

Apart from Kilgallen & Dixon wasnt very impressed with Blackrock at all, will be surprised if they do much this year, however it could be just first round nerves

They were a bit jittery but putting almost 40 points on a Terenure side is not a bad afternoons work.

Inspector Coptoor

Just watched the game
On Setanta.

Few thoughts:

Blackrock kick offs are very good.
Collected 3/3 in first half & could have scored in the v first play but for a knock on

Rock were Not committing too many to rucks.

Positional awareness of Rock back three not fantastic in defense.

Smaller team than I expected due to high number of 5th/4th years.

Scoreline flattered rock as it included a penalty try (2nd try) after a sloppy mistake by Nure in Defence & 3rd try was an individual try by the 12, Ran a nice line and straightened v well, it looked great but there were three missed tackles which is unforgivable really.

4th try was a nice crossfield kick by Dean (10) but ball bounced nicely into winger's hands. (Kilgallon)

Rock 15 kicked 4/7 kicks & replacement kicker slotted last conversion

rock captain (2) Kean seriously mobile and powerful and going for his 3rd Senior Cup winners medal.

5th try was excellent

Pitch looks great but lots of players were slipping and changing direction at pace was difficult for some players due to it being quite slippy.
I think it's a great surface for soccer but not rugby.

39-11 sounds like a complete hammering but it flattered Rock to be fair.

Jcourtney2000

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Just watched the game
On Setanta.

Few thoughts:

Blackrock kick offs are very good.
Collected 3/3 in first half & could have scored in the v first play but for a knock on

Rock were Not committing too many to rucks.

Positional awareness of Rock back three not fantastic in defense.

Smaller team than I expected due to high number of 5th/4th years.

Scoreline flattered rock as it included a penalty try (2nd try) after a sloppy mistake by Nure in Defence & 3rd try was an individual try by the 12, Ran a nice line and straightened v well, it looked great but there were three missed tackles which is unforgivable really.

4th try was a nice crossfield kick by Dean (10) but ball bounced nicely into winger's hands. (Kilgallon)

Rock 15 kicked 4/7 kicks & replacement kicker slotted last conversion

rock captain (2) Kean seriously mobile and powerful and going for his 3rd Senior Cup winners medal.

5th try was excellent

Pitch looks great but lots of players were slipping and changing direction at pace was difficult for some players due to it being quite slippy.
I think it's a great surface for soccer but not rugby.

39-11 sounds like a complete hammering but it flattered Rock to be fair.

I have played on the 4g pitch it is far from slippery. It is very grippy probably to good as it puts lot of strain on joints,muscles and bones. Vinnie Murray semis kh v pres had two broken ankles probably due to not knowing the pitch to well and not any give.

Inspector Coptoor

Yeah, scrums will be tough on joints for tight 5s, especially patellar tendons, and sliding into collecting a ball could give some nasty "carpet burn"

Leinster5

RedemptionZ wrote: »

I won't name anyone for obvious reasons but through siblings and the like I know or know of a fair few people who played under him last year and this year. One of my brothers is in 6th year now. At the same time I heard similar things about Skehan when he was the coach, whereas Kelvin Leahy had a good reputation and ultimately he has gotten the crucial Senior Cup win. Maybe coaching needs to be looked at in Michaels at the higher levels, because it's a farce there's only 2 wins after all the talent the school has produced in the last decade.
I'll have to disagree there. Although 2007 was an unbelievable team so that's a fair choice, 2013 was overrated imo, the backrow wasn't dominant enough and the wings weren't good enough.

Interesting to hear that. You can look at it two ways really, but I doubt coaching is a huge issue with so many finals. I remember reading that Bernard Jackman helped out the year St. Michaels won so that could of been the difference perhaps.
The backrow wasn't as strong as this years side, but that's the only area where Michaels' side this year would be superior to the 2013 side. I'd have questions over Michaels' front row and whole back-line this year, especially at 10 and 15. While 'Rock have a quality back-line, especially players like Dixon and Dean, who are players who can challenge defences.

ciarancoak92

Kean looked like he had academy potential.
Two 4th years starting for rock with two more on the bench.
Two imports too - Dixon and the italian lock.

Bridge93

I was told up in the stand that the Rock teams makeup was
6 6th years with 2 more on the bench
6 5th years with 4 more on the bench
3 4th years with 2 more on the bench

Explains why they looked notably smaller than past years. Backline looked dangerous but Terenure were poor by their standards. Decent first showing.

funtime93

Leinster5 wrote: »

Interesting to hear that. You can look at it two ways really, but I doubt coaching is a huge issue with so many finals. I remember reading that Bernard Jackman helped out the year St. Michaels won so that could of been the difference perhaps.
The backrow wasn't as strong as this years side, but that's the only area where Michaels' side this year would be superior to the 2013 side. I'd have questions over Michaels' front row and whole back-line this year, especially at 10 and 15. While 'Rock have a quality back-line, especially players like Dixon and Dean, who are players who can challenge defences.

Michaels front row have 2 starters back from last year. Second rows and back row very strong aswell as the centres. I agree about 10 though and their back 3 isn't great either. They're favourites alright but not as hotly tipped as rock and terenure in the past two years. Nobody is talking about clongowes who I think have a great chance. 4 Irish schools starters from the u18 comp last April in their squad. Overall standard of teams is down on previous years though

ciarancoak92

Bridge93 wrote: »

I was told up in the stand that the Rock teams makeup was
6 6th years with 2 more on the bench
6 5th years with 4 more on the bench
3 4th years with 2 more on the bench

Explains why they looked notably smaller than past years. Backline looked dangerous but Terenure were poor by their standards. Decent first showing.

The fourth years were the starting scrumhalf Patrick Patterson, starting fullback Peter O'Reilly and the bench second row Charlie Ryan and bench flanker Andrew Murphy. Unless i'm missing someone.

Bridge93

ciarancoak92 wrote: »

The fourth years were the starting scrumhalf Patrick Patterson, starting fullback Peter O'Reilly and the bench second row Charlie Ryan and bench flanker Andrew Murphy. Unless i'm missing someone.

I was told the Italian is a fourth year, could be wrong.

ciarancoak92

Bridge93 wrote: »

I was told the Italian is a fourth year, could be wrong.

ah right, that would make sense. Any idea if he is here for the year or long term?

Bridge93

ciarancoak92 wrote: »

ah right, that would make sense. Any idea if he is here for the year or long term?

I think he's here for the year. After transition year he's meant to head home.

The Parish King

Thoughts on the CBC CUS match today? Haven't been following too much this year at all, only have heard that Monkstown beat Michaels and Clongows I think it was..

ciarancoak92

Also seen that both of rock's props on the bench were leinster u18 reps, the starters have no leinster experience but are both 6th years.

Charlie Ryan on the bench for Rock is huge for his age, probably 6'6.

ciarancoak92

The Parish King wrote: »

Thoughts on the CBC CUS match today? Haven't been following too much this year at all, only have heard that Monkstown beat Michaels and Clongows I think it was..

beat michaels when they were missing all their top players during the interpros..

they should beat CUS but whoever gets them next round will be happy.

Snegg

Anyone have a digital recording of the 2014 Leinster Senior Cup final?

ciarancoak92

Snegg wrote: »

Anyone have a digital recording of the 2014 Leinster Senior Cup final?

its being repeated on setanta tomorrow at 12.

themont85

CBC won 18-11 against CUS, last minute try for CUS but fair overall. Anyone know what's happened to William Fay?

Ed The Equalizer

Saw the last 15 mins of the CBC - CUS game. CBC's number 8 looked a good player.

The Lost Sheep

Munster SSC starts tomorrow with Glenstal v Castletroy and then on Wednesday Munchins v Ardscoil, Crescent v CBC and PBC v Rockwell

Connacht cups should see good number of group games played this week.... hopefully

3rd round draw for Ulster competition. Games to be played February 7th
Portora Royal School v Wallace HS
Ballymena Academy v Methodist College
Down HS v Coleraine AI
Ballyclare HS v Bangor GS
Limavady GS v Royal School Armagh
RBAI v Regent House
Sullivan Upper v Campbell College
Carrickfergus GS v Omagh Academy

Jcourtney2000

Snegg wrote: »

Anyone have a digital recording of the 2014 Leinster Senior Cup final?

It's on YouTube

ken76

Are there any games on Setanta Ireland this week live?I'm probably answering my own question, but TV listings only show a repeat of Rock very Nude this wed from 2-4th. I thought they were covering most games live.

FrannoFan

ken76 wrote: »

Are there any games on Setanta Ireland this week live?I'm probably answering my own question, but TV listings only show a repeat of Rock very Nude this wed from 2-4th. I thought they were covering most games live.

na,just showing the quarter finals on unfortunately.

Inspector Coptoor

ken76 wrote: »

Are there any games on Setanta Ireland this week live?I'm probably answering my own question, but TV listings only show a repeat of Rock very Nude this wed from 2-4th. I thought they were covering most games live.

They're covering 8

1 first round game
All 1/4 finals
Both semis
Final

OceanSixteen

Any truth in that Setanta will be showing the Junior Cup Semi Finals and Final live?

Rugby_Man5

what games are on tomorrow ?

ken76

Rugby_Man5 wrote: »

what games are on tomorrow ?[/quote

Marys v Michaels

Rugby_Man5

whats the word on that ? any contest ?

The Lost Sheep

Rugby_Man5 wrote: »

what games are on tomorrow ?

St Michaels v St Marys in Donnybrook
Kilkenny v Newbridge in Carlow
Wesley v Roscrea in Naas

And in Munster Glenstal and Castletroy

ken76

Seems like Michaels are red hot fave for the cup, followed by rock, Belvo

ciarancoak92

Jcourtney2000 wrote: »

It's on YouTube

no its not

FrannoFan

Rugby_Man5 wrote: »

whats the word on that ? any contest ?

Unlikely, Marys would be better off in the League at this point.

AndonHandon

spillit67 wrote: »

Again :rolleyes:

I'm not going to rehash the unfairness against League schools, but instead the general competitiveness of the Cup.

Between 1999 and 2005, Michaels did not win a match in the Cup, in fact during that period it was constantly suggested to them that they should go back to the League. During that period Marys and Terenure were very strong. In the 80s/early 90s Terenure were very strong with McClean at the helm. Clongowes had long barren periods before Vinnie Murray.

The point? The Cup changes, teams rise and fall. It is a constantly changing landscape and it will change again. One figure in a school can make a huge difference to a rugby programme. The only rugby programme which remains strong perpetually is Blackrock, for obvious reasons.

That's aside from the fact that how the hell do you pick seeds year to year? Last year's performance? With a huge changeover in personnel? Would Blackrock have been no 1 then in 2010 after winning in 2009, despite having a middle of the pack side?

If we are going to go down the route of trying to avoid the "beauty of the Cup" competition format and look to get the best teams every year to the latter stages of the Cup, then we should go to the Heineken Cup format so the "on the day" factor and open draw element is neutralised. Not going to happen though, most schools don't want it unfortunately.

Also where do you get the idea that the "main draws" are those 3 schools. They aren't. Belvo or Terenure doing well would draw more than Michaels or Clongowes. When a league school steps up like Kilkenny in 2007, CBC in 2008, Gerards in 2010/2011, Roscrea over several years of late, Newbridge the last two years or Andrews last year the past pupils of those schools are all engaged, probably more so as they aren't spoiled with cup runs like a Blackrock past pupil.

Your argument revolving around early noughties and earlier rings hollow as the sport was barely professional at that time. We are in 2015 where the sport has moved on so much that the schools cup has dramatically increased in standard due to the proximity of it to a professional rugby contract. And the gulf between those 3 teams and the rest is significant. The 'magic of the cup' involving the underdog doing well is still appreciated and supported but the underdog should need to earn it. The 'big 6' is professed by those stuck in the past and unable to appreciate the reality of the modern game.

spillit67

AndonHandon wrote: »

Your argument revolving around early noughties and earlier rings hollow as the sport was barely professional at that time. We are in 2015 where the sport has moved on so much that the schools cup has dramatically increased in standard due to the proximity of it to a professional rugby contract. And the gulf between those 3 teams and the rest is significant. The 'magic of the cup' involving the underdog doing well is still appreciated and supported but the underdog should need to earn it. The 'big 6' is professed by those stuck in the past and unable to appreciate the reality of the modern game.

:rolleyes:

The standards and skills improving in school's rugby is not a new thing. "Modern" coaching methods have been coming into school's rugby for decades - Fr Godfrey, Vinnie Murray, John McClean, Michael Mullen, McWilliams, Miller ect. As Neil Francis said, he was more of a professional in school than he was playing senior rugby. Sure things have moved on - supplements, S&C, the rules of the sport and there is no doubt that professionalism's great leaps at senior level filtered down to school, but it is completely ignorant to say the sport hadn't kicked on in schools pre professionalism with innovations.

How do you think sides have moved up and down in the previous years? There are clear patterns in school's rugby of success and failure.

Seeding is a COMPLETE nonsense aside from the rest of the reasons I give above. There is no basis to judge it on. Prior year makes no sense, turnover of squad is a huge factor. How do you judge below your precious Top 3 (top 3 for 5 seasons:rolleyes:)?

In 10 years time there will be a difference at the top. I'm not sure what age you are but you really seem to be ignorant of the past and changes in school's rugby. I mention Big 6 because they are automatic qualifiers. The term used in the past was Big 5, Michaels boys wanted a "Big 6" and were laughed at because of their lack of achievement pre 2007. All changed now though huh?

Even if we were to accept your argument that this Top 3 is going to be there for the rest of time, it falls down. Rugby is a sport. School's rugby should be first and foremost about teenagers enjoying/playing a sport and enjoying the game into adulthood. That is what made school's rugby so valuable to Irish rugby for 100 years. Pro players comes next. This is what makes all the player movements in school's rugby of late so disheartening. Players thinking that by moving they are getting a medal is tainting the competition. Put the last two Rock sides against their 1995/96 versions, frankly it isn't a contest in terms of the respect they are held in across school's rugby. Any efforts to solidify the top few schools currently in Leinster at the top table, disguised as an effort to help the professional sport, should be resisted by all who have a genuine connection to schools rugby.

That "gap" will be closed in time, don't worry, it always is. Rewarding innovation in coaching throughout the sport will help the professional sport.

AndonHandon

The only way I see the gap closing in time is if One or more of the provinces break from the IRFU and accept a wealthy backer. This seems a likely step given the new European format. In turn there will be greater competition for fewer places on the provinces which will put more pressure on the schools game in terms of players trying to make it as professionals. They will want to play with the best school which would be a (current) big 3 so it is possible that schools outside of the big 3 will accept 'donations' to improve their infrastructure for rugby, pay scholarships. That's the only way the gulf will close.

thebaz

AndonHandon wrote: »

The only way I see the gap closing in time is if One or more of the provinces break from the IRFU and accept a wealthy backer. This seems a likely step given the new European format. In turn there will be greater competition for fewer places on the provinces which will put more pressure on the schools game in terms of players trying to make it as professionals. They will want to play with the best school which would be a (current) big 3 so it is possible that schools outside of the big 3 will accept 'donations' to improve their infrastructure for rugby, pay scholarships. That's the only way the gulf will close.

hopefully none of this comes to pass - schools rugby should be about producing a winning team , not the production of a few professionals for the academies - it is an amateur schools cup , no more - the academies are for after school . A competition between the top 3 , would completely loose the magic of actually winning a cup, believe me

its_phil

AndonHandon wrote: »

The only way I see the gap closing in time is if One or more of the provinces break from the IRFU and accept a wealthy backer. This seems a likely step given the new European format. In turn there will be greater competition for fewer places on the provinces which will put more pressure on the schools game in terms of players trying to make it as professionals. They will want to play with the best school which would be a (current) big 3 so it is possible that schools outside of the big 3 will accept 'donations' to improve their infrastructure for rugby, pay scholarships. That's the only way the gulf will close.

One of the worst posts I've ever read on schools rugby. You're basically saying that everyone outside the big 3 should buy some magic beans and then out of pity some benefactor will come in to the school and make them superstar world beaters.

League schools such as Roscrea, Kilkenny and Newbridge (never mind the other 3 powers) are more than capable of beating the big 3 on their day. The gulf is not so wide to bring in such a radical proposal