Schools Cup 2014/2015 *mod warning post 1*

FrannoFan

The "big 3" capture the headlines come cup but if you look at the range of schools providing players to the pro game it is clear the standard is very high across the board. Gonzaga, Castleknock, Gerrards, Newbrdige, Roscrea etc are all in the league providing international standard players.
The league has become a tough competition to win and the winner can have realistic expectations of making a semi-final. they have decent budgets and provide excellent strength and conditioning/video analysis/ top end coaching.
Rock,Michaels and Clongowes are happy with the current cup format.
Belvo, Marys and Terneure can join the league if they want or persist with having their one big day out in the cup.

There was a proposal to change the format and all the schools bar 2 voted to keep it as it was.

The trend of players changing school just for cup is a disappointing development but not a lot can be done about that(despite branch proposal of a 20month lead in time to play in the cup if you change school) if that was implemented i think you would see a more balance competition and the likes of Belvo becoming a challenger again.

bob11

Pretty close game so far :

14 - 12 to Marys

https://clubapplive.com/rugby/matchDetail.html?matchid=1574

spillit67

AndonHandon wrote: »

The only way I see the gap closing in time is if One or more of the provinces break from the IRFU and accept a wealthy backer. This seems a likely step given the new European format. In turn there will be greater competition for fewer places on the provinces which will put more pressure on the schools game in terms of players trying to make it as professionals. They will want to play with the best school which would be a (current) big 3 so it is possible that schools outside of the big 3 will accept 'donations' to improve their infrastructure for rugby, pay scholarships. That's the only way the gulf will close.

Sorry but this won't come to pass. There will be no provincial break off, this is la la land stuff. The Provinces are owned by the IRFU. The IRFU is about its members. Rugby is Ireland is a pyramid and this won't be changing.

As noted above, the professionals are coming from across the board.

The Big 6 and the 12 league schools generally already invest quite a bit in rugby. Of course it varies but the idea that it is all money is a nonsense. The "gulf" will close, there will be new teams at the top.

ken76

This "Big 3" is rubbish, Belvo, Nure even Marys were and will continue regarded higher than Michaels in my opinion, for years Michaels couldn't get close to Belvo in the cup. I know when i was in school who I would rather play if it came to Nure or Michaels, and it wasn't the former.

As has been previously said the cup is cyclical. Belvo will be there or there abouts this year, are probably favorites next year and will be up there in 2 years time

elasticcomplex

Marys seem to have awoken today, interesting to see if they can hold out. Any links for watching quarter finals etc. online?

spillit67

FrannoFan wrote: »

The "big 3" capture the headlines come cup but if you look at the range of schools providing players to the pro game it is clear the standard is very high across the board. Gonzaga, Castleknock, Gerrards, Newbrdige, Roscrea etc are all in the league providing international standard players.
The league has become a tough competition to win and the winner can have realistic expectations of making a semi-final. they have decent budgets and provide excellent strength and conditioning/video analysis/ top end coaching.
Rock,Michaels and Clongowes are happy with the current cup format.
Belvo, Marys and Terneure can join the league if they want or persist with having their one big day out in the cup.

There was a proposal to change the format and all the schools bar 2 voted to keep it as it was.

The trend of players changing school just for cup is a disappointing development but not a lot can be done about that(despite branch proposal of a 20month lead in time to play in the cup if you change school) if that was implemented i think you would see a more balance competition and the likes of Belvo becoming a challenger again.

Precisely, the best way to improve standards is competition, not ringfencing. That is why the pros are coming from across the board.

Pity the Heineken Cup format wasn't brought in but the fear was that the school's cup would drag on. It would have had to have started in December which isn't idea for lots of schools with exams and the Cup already interrupts mocks. Though with the new Donnybrook there is more scope for this idea so I hope it isn't shelved.

Also, I think many don't want to devalue even a 1st round appearance and the attention that brings. Unlikely the media would be as into the group stages as they are currently and it would likely be just the quarters onwards that gets the current level of coverage.

spillit67

ken76 wrote: »

This "Big 3" is rubbish, Belvo, Nure even Marys were and will continue regarded higher than Michaels in my opinion, for years Michaels couldn't get close to Belvo in the cup. I know when i was in school who I would rather play if it came to Nure or Michaels, and it wasn't the former.

As has been previously said the cup is cyclical. Belvo will be there or there abouts this year, are probably favorites next year and will be up there in 2 years time

Belvo of course didn't win the Cup for 33 years then enjoyed a purple patch between 03-09. Cycles...

funtime93

This is the last of Michaels golden generation of 06-15.Should have got more than 2 cups IMO and there playing very poorly here.Marys handling is excellent they're moving the ball very well despite the obvious size difference.Id still expect Michaels to step it up second half.

its_phil

19-0 to Roscrea. Foley with all the points

36-10 to Newbridge.

The Lost Sheep

spillit67 wrote: »

:rolleyes:

The standards and skills improving in school's rugby is not a new thing. "Modern" coaching methods have been coming into school's rugby for decades - Fr Godfrey, Vinnie Murray, John McClean, Michael Mullen, McWilliams, Miller ect. As Neil Francis said, he was more of a professional in school than he was playing senior rugby. Sure things have moved on - supplements, S&C, the rules of the sport and there is no doubt that professionalism's great leaps at senior level filtered down to school, but it is completely ignorant to say the sport hadn't kicked on in schools pre professionalism with innovations.

How do you think sides have moved up and down in the previous years? There are clear patterns in school's rugby of success and failure.

Seeding is a COMPLETE nonsense aside from the rest of the reasons I give above. There is no basis to judge it on. Prior year makes no sense, turnover of squad is a huge factor. How do you judge below your precious Top 3 (top 3 for 5 seasons:rolleyes:)?

In 10 years time there will be a difference at the top. I'm not sure what age you are but you really seem to be ignorant of the past and changes in school's rugby. I mention Big 6 because they are automatic qualifiers. The term used in the past was Big 5, Michaels boys wanted a "Big 6" and were laughed at because of their lack of achievement pre 2007. All changed now though huh?

Even if we were to accept your argument that this Top 3 is going to be there for the rest of time, it falls down. Rugby is a sport. School's rugby should be first and foremost about teenagers enjoying/playing a sport and enjoying the game into adulthood. That is what made school's rugby so valuable to Irish rugby for 100 years. Pro players comes next. This is what makes all the player movements in school's rugby of late so disheartening. Players thinking that by moving they are getting a medal is tainting the competition. Put the last two Rock sides against their 1995/96 versions, frankly it isn't a contest in terms of the respect they are held in across school's rugby. Any efforts to solidify the top few schools currently in Leinster at the top table, disguised as an effort to help the professional sport, should be resisted by all who have a genuine connection to schools rugby.

That "gap" will be closed in time, don't worry, it always is. Rewarding innovation in coaching throughout the sport will help the professional sport.

Agree with a lot of that. If something is to change it shouldn't be the introduction of seeding but a change in format of the competition.
What change at the top do you see in the next 10 years?
How do you see the gap being closed?

The_N4sir

Am I right in saying there is around 20 mins left in the Marys v Michaels match?
Just got home and saw Marys are winning!

bob11

The_N4sir wrote: »

Am I right in saying there is around 20 mins in the Marys v Michaels match?
Just got home and saw Marys are winning!

Correct :

https://twitter.com/schoolnotices/status/560105259746746368

spillit67

The gap will be closed by just as Michaels did it 10 years ago as a day boys school with 80-100 per year group. Better structures and more streamlined coaching down the spine of your school. Invest in your own school's talent and get rugby balls in pupils hands more. This could happen in a great many schools - Gonzaga, Monkstown, Marys, Terenure, Kilkenny, Belvedere, CUS and Pres all capable (finance being an issue for Pres I think). Belvo and Terenure are slightly bigger but on a similar mode. The room for improvement is enormous.

Not discounting the mixed schools and boarding schools like Andrews, just their challenge is slightly different. I think it's unlikely that Gerards or Roscrea will get significantly better, I think they're close to maximising their potential given the small size of their school.

As it has always been in the past, it will be individual teachers/coaches who will bring about changes. Like McWilliams with Michaels. Michaels have been blessed to have a couple of smart teachers and well as knowing to bring in some quality rugby coaches onto their teaching staff as well. Individuals get bored and move on though, like McWilliams. It's inevitable that someone will come into a place like Terenure and shake things up at some stage.

The Lost Sheep

spillit67 wrote: »

Sorry but this won't come to pass. There will be no provincial break off, this is la la land stuff. The Provinces are owned by the IRFU. The IRFU is about its members. Rugby is Ireland is a pyramid and this won't be changing.

As noted above, the professionals are coming from across the board.

The Big 6 and the 12 league schools generally already invest quite a bit in rugby. Of course it varies but the idea that it is all money is a nonsense. The "gulf" will close, there will be new teams at the top.

How do you see new teams at the top and which teams do you see rising towards the top?

I was at a Connacht Senior Schools game this afternoon. Summerhill Sligo beat the Jes 26-5 on a horrible pitch known locally as "the swamp". Summerhill, most of whom also play together on Sligo RFC u18s who topped the Connacht 18s league and are in final of that against Galwegians, won comfortably. Summerhill were much bigger and tbh coached much better. Deserved winners.
Marist beat Garbally 13-12 in the other group game

funtime93

Michaels are going to be dumped out here.They're playing so poorly. Haven't been impressed by their much vaunted pack either.

spillit67

Gosh I hope Marys don't hang on, would really destroy the box office appeal of the rest of the competition. :pac:

elasticcomplex

Any news in regards to Wesley - Roscrea or Newbridge - Kilkenny?

The Lost Sheep

elasticcomplex wrote: »

Any news in regards to Wesley - Roscrea or Newbridge - Kilkenny?

Both final scores
Kilkenny College 10 Newbridge College 57
Wesley College 0 Cistercian Roscrea 26

its_phil

elasticcomplex wrote: »

Any news in regards to Wesley - Roscrea or Newbridge - Kilkenny?

Newbridge 57-10
Roscrea 26-0

its_phil

6 mins left according to clubapplive

Lobby Con Shine

57 points for Newbridge. Ruddy hell. They must be decent.

funtime93

Try Michaels 19-14

elasticcomplex

Dave Duggan seems to have saved Michael's bacon, 19-14 Michaels, 3 or so to go

its_phil

Marys attacking 5m out with time up

elasticcomplex

Game Over on clubapp - Michaels have scraped on through

its_phil

Game Over

Michaels 19-14 Marys

elasticcomplex

its_phil wrote: »

Game Over

Michaels 19-14 Marys

Are you at the game? Any standout performances?

funtime93

elasticcomplex wrote: »

Are you at the game? Any standout performances?

I was. Michaels were very poor given they had a big size advantage.Ryan played well but they kicked away so much ball it never allowed their pack to be utilised.A lot of handling errors also.The Michaels 13 was very impressive, made a lot of ground.Marys played above expectations but they still looked second best.Scored an intercept early on and defending excellently thereafter.Their 10 looked good and their pack stood up well to the second half onslaught from Michaels who would need to seriously improve if they are to be taken seriously as favourites.

Lobby Con Shine

Is there a draw for the next round of fixtures or has the draw for the entire competition been made already?

Where does one find this sh1t?

The Lost Sheep

Lobby Con Shine wrote: »

Is there a draw for the next round of fixtures or has the draw for the entire competition been made already?

Where does one find this sh1t?

Draw for next round done once all games in first round have been completed. Look on the leinster website, domestic page and look at the schools section. All info is there

Ed The Equalizer

Was at the game. Michaels very lucky and Mary's played out of their skins. Michaels seem have big problems at out half.

Walked by Brian O'Meara at the end and heard him saying "People say we're favourites but..." Sounded very pessimistic about his team.

Would be very surprised if they go on to win it now.

RedemptionZ

Joke of a performance by Michaels. Why would you kick the ball away so much with the players you have at your disposal? Brainless tactics by O Meara. Full credit to Mary's, deserved the win and very much a lucky win for STMC 13 for them really impressed. But if they continue this way Blackrock will have an easy run to three in a row.

offloader93

RedemptionZ wrote: »

Joke of a performance by Michaels. Why would you kick the ball away so much with the players you have at your disposal? Brainless tactics by O Meara. Full credit to Mary's, deserved the win and very much a lucky win for STMC 13 for them really impressed. But if they continue this way Blackrock will have an easy run to three in a row.

Agree with you on that one. Michael's size and bulk was outplayed by Mary's skill and determination. Not really any standout performances from the Michael's team.

The new pitch allowed for a free flowing game too.

Andyw234

Anyone know as to why there is not betting for the Gonzaga Belvo match tomorrow, usually back my old stomping ground Belvo each year but no betting companys seem to have any odds?

RedemptionZ

offloader93 wrote: »

Agree with you on that one. Michael's size and bulk was outplayed by Mary's skill and determination. Not really any standout performances from the Michael's team.

The new pitch allowed for a free flowing game too.

The outhalf situation is a bit of a problem(Cosgrove had a mare and Byrne is a small 4th year) and maybe that's why O Meara wants to keep it a forwards game but it really backfired today and should have cost them their place in the tournament.

Still though I remember when Michaels should have lost to Roscrea in the first round in 2012 and they ended up winning the whole thing.

the baby bull elephant

FrannoFan wrote: »

Unlikely, Marys would be better off in the League at this point.

Ha. Did Mary's knock your year out or something?

AndonHandon

O'Meara is a munster man isn't he?

the baby bull elephant

13 of Marys 23 back next year, if they find centres they could be Dark Horses. Very unlucky today espcecially with that scrum penalty on Michael's 5.

Tables

People being surprised by the Newbridge result surprises me... This year could have and should have beaten St. Michaels in the Junior cup final, they won the league this year, they have 2 ireland players on the squad; their 10 and 2, and a number of Leinster reps.

RedemptionZ

the baby bull elephant wrote: »

13 of Marys 23 back next year, if they find centres they could be Dark Horses. Very unlucky today espcecially with that scrum penalty on Michael's 5.

Definite dark horses. How much of that 13 were starting though? Even as an extremely biased Michaels fan I think Mary's were the deserving winners, the better drilled team, just lacked a little going forward and couldn't capitalise on all that possession that was kicked to them. Came bloody close though.

the baby bull elephant

RedemptionZ wrote: »

Definite dark horses. How much of that 13 were starting though? Even as an extremely biased Michaels fan I think Mary's were the deserving winners, the better drilled team, just lacked a little going forward and couldn't capitalise on all that possession that was kicked to them. Came bloody close though.

7 were starters. Shaun Berne and Jamie Cornett are doing an excellent job.

Both props, whole backrow (with the normal starting 7, who's also 5th year, injured) and halfbacks all fifth year.

Quint2010

the baby bull elephant wrote: »

7 were starters. Shaun Berne and Jamie Cornett are doing an excellent job.

Both props, whole backrow (with the normal starting 7, who's also 5th year, injured) and halfbacks all fifth year.

What's Gabriel Fulcher's input into the whole thing?

the baby bull elephant

Quint2010 wrote: »

What's Gabriel Fulcher's input into the whole thing?

As far as I can remember he doesn't have a direct impact on any one team but oversee's the coaches and makes sure they are actually improving the players.

OceanSixteen

St Mary's Captain Niall Curran is only a fifth year too

Gonzaga/Belvedere odds will be up tonight or tomorrow Paddy Power said on their twitter

offloader93

Just wondering if Mary's have any Leinster reps? Both centres for Mary's were impressive today. Word in the terrace today was that rugby in St.Mary's is on the way up.

Jcourtney2000

Opinions on the junior cup 1st round and does anyone know if it seeded after first round for juniors.

ArmchairQB

People who say Michaels don't have a problem with coaching are deluded. I have been watching them closely the last 3 seasons and they could clearly be better drilled their tactics are from a bygone era rugby has moved on, Leinster rugby especially it is fast and free flowing and based on good attacking play and solid organised defence. Michaels style of play and tactics are totally wrong. They have some very good players and are not being utilised to their best of their ability. If Peter Smyth was in charge of Michaels they would be going for 3 in a row I have no doubt about that what so ever

Bridge93

ArmchairQB wrote: »

People who say Michaels don't have a problem with coaching are deluded. I have been watching them closely the last 3 seasons and they could clearly be better drilled their tactics are from a bygone era rugby has moved on, Leinster rugby especially it is fast and free flowing and based on good attacking play and solid organised defence. Michaels style of play and tactics are totally wrong. They have some very good players and are not being utilised to their best of their ability. If Peter Smyth was in charge of Michaels they would be going for 3 in a row I have no doubt about that what so ever

Michaels would not have won the cup last year even if Joe Schmidt was coach. They simply were not good enough.

donvito99

I must say I found the last 15 mins incredible to watch, the endurance from both teams was monstrous, and there were few mistakes from either side. The width of the Michaels backs seemed to give them the edge. An absolute pleasure to witness.

rugby2345

Was at Bridge match today their defence even in the 70th minute was impeccable serious contenders after this performance even though there is only 6 6th years on starting 15 O'Brien and Howlett were different class