Schools Cup 2014/2015 *mod warning post 1*

Buer

1StradBROOK wrote: »

I've no intention of going outside it the smell of excrement is enough every moring when I walk the past the Public toilets in fairview park.

Mod: Banned for trolling. Let's have no more of this rubbish from anyone else

Ah Zzippy, I never got an opportunity to ask him why he's hanging around the Fairview Park public toilets!

Ed The Equalizer

StarWalker0 wrote: »

How much does it cost to go into a schools game at donnybrook?

10, or 5 with a student card

ken76

5 for student, 10 for adult in terrace, 15 for adult in stand , and 10 for student in stand

rughug

ken76 wrote: »

5 for student, 10 for adult in terrace, 15 for adult in stand , and 10 for student in stand

When is the next draw on..........anyone know.

ken76

Friday I believe

The Lost Sheep

rughug wrote: »

When is the next draw on..........anyone know.

After the Kings Hospital Andrews game tomorrow

ArmchairQB

Header15 wrote: »

As a past pupil of Roscrea I can assure you that his sources are actually reliable. Majority of new students attend solely for rugby and academics are forgotten about.

To back up your source, there has been a fair bit of discussion in recent times within the Leinster branch re their conveyor belt and scholarship funded by Connacht. There have been talks of exluding them from Leinster Schools and letting them throw in their lot with either Munster or Connacht. If Leinster don't receive a benifit from including the school in their competition why should they include them? I have to say the Leinster Schools would be a duller place without them and would likely be bad news for Roscrea as well

its_phil

ArmchairQB wrote: »

To back up your source, there has been a fair bit of discussion in recent times within the Leinster branch re their conveyor belt and scholarship funded by Connacht. There have been talks of exluding them from Leinster Schools and letting them throw in their lot with either Munster or Connacht. If Leinster don't receive a benifit from including the school in their competition why should they include them? I have to say the Leinster Schools would be a duller place without them and would likely be bad news for Roscrea as well

Not aimed at you QB, but good luck to the branch doing that, there's not a hope in hell they will succeed. Leinster schools team have more than benefitted over the years from Connacht born Roscrea players playing for Leinster, in the same way Connacht have benefitted from Leinster born players playing for Connacht. It doesn't take a genius to put together that Connacht schools is not the best breeding ground for players(but it can be done) and as a whole benefits Irish rugby.

If they don't think the competition is better for it, they're just acting like Goliath being challenged by David. I don't agree with parachutes into 6th year, speaking as a past pupil, but I know plenty of guys who came to Roscrea in 5th year for the purpose of academics with rugby being the selling point. No scholarships. You take that carrot, you will kill a school only just getting back on its knees after the fall in numbers from recession.

Also these scholarships are not worth as much as some people like to think and d parents are still having to shell out.

Squidgy Black

Personally I don't see the big issue with schools giving scholarships to students to play sports with the school, look at all of the colleges that do it without issue like UCD or DCU.

It's not as if the school is paying them to to attend, they're simply covering the majority of the cost for the child to attend the school.

The Lost Sheep

ArmchairQB wrote: »

To back up your source, there has been a fair bit of discussion in recent times within the Leinster branch re their conveyor belt and scholarship funded by Connacht. There have been talks of exluding them from Leinster Schools and letting them throw in their lot with either Munster or Connacht. If Leinster don't receive a benifit from including the school in their competition why should they include them? I have to say the Leinster Schools would be a duller place without them and would likely be bad news for Roscrea as well

Has there? They wont exclude them from competition and they wont be going into Munster or Connacht competitions.
To say Leinster don't receive a benefit or imply they don't. :pac:

_Tyrrell_ wrote: »

Personally I don't see the big issue with schools giving scholarships to students to play sports with the school, look at all of the colleges that do it without issue like UCD or DCU.

It's not as if the school is paying them to to attend, they're simply covering the majority of the cost for the child to attend the school.

I don't like to see scholorships if it means a player from a weak enough club loses out and a team which would have a focal point and strong player to keep a team together loses out while a school even a small one such as Roscrea gains yet another player. At 17s/18s/19s few clubs have more than 1 team at an age group and losing a key player is huge.

ArmchairQB

its_phil wrote: »

Not aimed at you QB, but good luck to the branch doing that, there's not a hope in hell they will succeed. Leinster schools team have more than benefitted over the years from Connacht born Roscrea players playing for Leinster, in the same way Connacht have benefitted from Leinster born players playing for Connacht. It doesn't take a genius to put together that Connacht schools is not the best breeding ground for players(but it can be done) and as a whole benefits Irish rugby.

If they don't think the competition is better for it, they're just acting like Goliath being challenged by David. I don't agree with parachutes into 6th year, speaking as a past pupil, but I know plenty of guys who came to Roscrea in 5th year for the purpose of academics with rugby being the selling point. No scholarships. You take that carrot, you will kill a school only just getting back on its knees after the fall in numbers from recession.

Also these scholarships are not worth as much as some people like to think and d parents are still having to shell out.

To be honest I don't have a problem with it but those rumblings have been brewing awhile now in the Leinster Branch hopefully nothing changes

Bridge93

If Roscrea were winning the cup a lot it might be different, but they're not. All the Connacht players bring is more competition to a sometimes predictable competition. Surely entertainment is what most want and the best young players head to head? That Roscrea Blackrock game two years ago was one of if not the best cup game I've ever seen.
Roscrea bring a huge amount to the cup. Another team outside the capital is always welcome.

thebaz

Bridge93 wrote: »

If Roscrea were winning the cup a lot it might be different, but they're not. All the Connacht players bring is more competition to a sometimes predictable competition. Surely entertainment is what most want and the best young players head to head? That Roscrea Blackrock game two years ago was one of if not the best cup game I've ever seen.
Roscrea bring a huge amount to the cup. Another team outside the capital is always welcome.

when Roscrea came on the scene a few years ago, and people said there was only 30 pupils per year , I was amazed at what they achieved - the whole Connacht/scholarship takes away some of the gloss on this achievement - especially when bigger schools such as Pres Bray are struggling , and seam to be going backwards in comparison to the others

The Lost Sheep

thebaz wrote: »

when Roscrea came on the scene a few years ago, and people said there was only 30 pupils per year , I was amazed at what they achieved - the whole Connacht/scholarship takes away some of the gloss on this achievement - especially when bigger schools such as Pres Bray are struggling, and seam to be going backwards in comparison to the others

Does Blackrock and scholarships etc take away from their wins despite having 200 a year.
The role Connacht have in the school is over played.

thebaz

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Does Blackrock and scholarships etc take away from their wins despite having 200 a year.

Yes - winning a cup medal with a smaller school would be more satisfying to most.

Just think the whole scholarship of richer/boarding schools feeds the elitism of rugby - not fair on less well off schools in my mind. Where are St Pauls , de la salle Churchtown ? - when i played press bray were the equal of michaels

Kiwi_knock

Going by Twitter, it is 29-3 to Clongowes against Castleknock at half time.

The Lost Sheep

Kiwi_knock wrote: »

Going by Twitter, it is 29-3 to Clongowes against Castleknock at half time.

And hat-trick for Will Connors

So its Blackrock, CBC Monkstown, Michaels, Newbridge, Roscrea, Belvedere, Clongowes and Kings Hospital/Andrews(who play tomorrow) in the quarters

The Lost Sheep

thebaz wrote: »

Yes - winning a cup medal with a smaller school would be more satisfying to most.

Just think the whole scholarship of richer/boarding schools feeds the elitism of rugby - not fair on less well off schools in my mind. Where are St Pauls , de la salle Churchtown ? - when i played press bray were the equal of michaels

Of course it feeds it.

Kiwi_knock wrote: »

Going by Twitter, it is 29-3 to Clongowes against Castleknock at half time.

Finished 70-8

Ed The Equalizer

Clongowes impressive today, definitely a match for Blackrock. Michaels have work to do...

S. Goodspeed

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Of course it feeds it.

Finished 70-8

I presume that's easily castleknock's worst beating in cup history. Absolutely awful.

spillit67

What the hell happened to Castleknock this year?

spillit67

On Roscrea with these Connacht players coming in, where is the money coming from? Roscrea's numbers have fallen.

The Lost Sheep

thebaz wrote: »

Yes - winning a cup medal with a smaller school would be more satisfying to most.

Just think the whole scholarship of richer/boarding schools feeds the elitism of rugby - not fair on less well off schools in my mind. Where are St Pauls, de la salle Churchtown ? - when i played press bray were the equal of michaels

Would it?
Of course it feeds it but how do you stop it?

spillit67 wrote: »

On Roscrea with these Connacht players coming in, where is the money coming from? Roscrea's numbers have fallen.

Connacht players don't get any deal or anything to join the school. There is as many coaches from Munster etc who have coached or coach in Cistercian as from Connacht. 2/3 coaches from Nenagh regularly have been coaching players/with teams from Roscrea in recent times for example...

spillit67

Well why are so many Connacht players joining the school? I know of two other boarding schools in Leinster who would quite happily have them as well...

Over the years I've heard some mixed reports on how this situation has come to pass, just interested.

RedemptionZ

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Does Blackrock and scholarships etc take away from their wins despite having 200 a year.
The role Connacht have in the school is over played.

You would have to say yes it does. Having twice the number of most schools and having the ability to provide boarding and give scholarships is always going to result in more cup wins. And it has tbf, but it's hardly an achievement. IMO.

USA won 104 medals, 39 more than the UK in the London games, finishing first in the overall medal count. But the fact that the UK could come so close with 65 medals considering their population and lack of resources(in comparison to the US they do have inferior resources) is surely more impressive. That's how I'd view Blackrock winning the senior cup. A slightly exaggerated example but think the point still stands.

With Roscrea, while they are developing players, you would wonder does it harm the youths as they have to leave their respective clubs to play schools rugby. Maybe it doesn't, I wouldn't be clued in to Connaucht underage rugby.

yuanbix

As a Castleknock past pupil I'd like to register my disgust at the state of this competition. What happened today wasn't fair on the players or families involved.

All the while our star centre is instrumental in the blue and white in beating on Terenure College on Sunday.

Something is rotten with this competition. We get it guys, you like to win cups, some of us enjoy an actual competition.

Bridge93

I think last years Rock team has made this into a bigger issue than it actually is. It happened but wasn't really commented on until the Rock class of 2014 finding 4 players.
I can barely name any from Rock from previous years (dunno about other schools.)
Also they're not scholarships like people keep saying. The kids pay fees. They get spots easily enough but that could be as much to do with space being made by students leaving in the senior cycle for various reasons so space is there. I don't think the lads are even jumping the queue for places as not many move into private schools at that age, it'll be to places like the Institute.
It's obviously no fluke that those who enter play rugby well but from talking to people involved, Blackrock anyway do not go out and poach players. The kid and parents approach the school asking about spots.
It's a difficult topic because can you step in front of kids education? Rugby for some is a bonus and an incentive to move, but not the only reason.

Now don't take this as all definitely true, because it's only from conversations with past pupils but I feel it right that another side to a usually one sided argument is added.
The reality is none of us know what actually happens. This rule that Munster schools had seems a good idea and hopefully something like it is introduced that way those moving for education still can while cup integrity is maintained.


Can anyone tell me previous Rock year imports? They genuinely may have slipped my mind.

its_phil

RedemptionZ wrote: »

With Roscrea, while they are developing players, you would wonder does it harm the youths as they have to leave their respective clubs to play schools rugby. Maybe it doesn't, I wouldn't be clued in to Connaucht underage rugby.

Roscrea, to my knowledge up to a few years ago, has never prevented a player from Connacht going home to play club rugby. Tiernan O'Halloran was allowed go home to play with Connemara along with four other SCT players for Ballina to play in a cup game. Those games usually take place after the cup

Bridge93

yuanbix wrote: »

As a Castleknock past pupil I'd like to register my disgust at the state of this competition. What happened today wasn't fair on the players or families involved.

All the while our star centre is instrumental in the blue and white in beating on Terenure College on Sunday.

Something is rotten with this competition. We get it guys, you like to win cups, some of us enjoy an actual competition.

Yep blame others for the humiliation. I'm sure Dixon would've made all the difference today. What's as rotten as the cup is the standard of Castleknock teams the last few years.

milosh

The rule that for players to play SCT they must be in the school 20 months prior to the start of the competition is in from next season. Ambitious players will not move as they will miss out on 2 seasons of senior cup rugby. It could of course be overturned at the schools AGM but I can think of loads of schools who will support it. Cbc, pres bray, Castleknock, newbridge off the top of my head have all lost stars to prominent schools in recent years. Hopefully this discussion is a thing of the past.

OceanSixteen

Thats complete and utter bullsh1t, I know for a fact that Dixon was approached by Blackrock and is now on a boarding scholarship, dont try and mask that fact. Also Blackrock have an Italian U18 as one of there 2nd rows, over here for the year

The Lost Sheep

Bridge93 wrote: »

I think last years Rock team has made this into a bigger issue than it actually is. It happened but wasn't really commented on until the Rock class of 2014 finding 4 players.
I can barely name any from Rock from previous years (dunno about other schools.)
Also they're not scholarships like people keep saying. The kids pay fees. They get spots easily enough but that could be as much to do with space being made by students leaving in the senior cycle for various reasons so space is there. I don't think the lads are even jumping the queue for places as not many move into private schools at that age, it'll be to places like the Institute.
It's obviously no fluke that those who enter play rugby well but from talking to people involved, Blackrock anyway do not go out and poach players. The kid and parents approach the school asking about spots.
It's a difficult topic because can you step in front of kids education? Rugby for some is a bonus and an incentive to move, but not the only reason.

Now don't take this as all definitely true, because it's only from conversations with past pupils but I feel it right that another side to a usually one sided argument is added.
The reality is none of us know what actually happens. This rule that Munster schools had seems a good idea and hopefully something like it is introduced that way those moving for education still can while cup integrity is maintained.

Can anyone tell me previous Rock year imports? They genuinely may have slipped my mind.

Jason Harris Wright
http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/you-have-an-advantage-at-the-bigger-schools-29945209.html
There would undoubtedly be others but not going to go through looking them up. Depends on circumstances and some schools do offer scholorships others don't.
By stopping kids moving isn't really affecting a persons education is it especially if rugby is the prime motivator for the move.
The rule Munster have would be good to see in Leinster and Ulster but don't see it happening

its_phil wrote: »

Roscrea, to my knowledge up to a few years ago, has never prevented a player from Connacht going home to play club rugby. Tiernan O'Halloran was allowed go home to play with Connemara along with four other SCT players for Ballina to play in a cup game. Those games usually take place after the cup

Yeah plenty have played club and school rugby. Affiliated to Connacht clubs though where club competition rules differ slightly to the other provinces

Bridge93

OceanSixteen wrote: »

Thats complete and utter bullsh1t, I know for a fact that Dixon was approached by Blackrock and is now on a boarding scholarship, dont try and mask that fact. Also Blackrock have an Italian U18 as one of there 2nd rows, over here for the year

Yeah the truth about this guy is out now about who he actually is. He is neither u18 or only here for the year.
He's a 5th year but also overage next season as he just turned 19 or is about to turn 19.

its_phil

milosh wrote: »

The rule that for players to play SCT they must be in the school 20 months prior to the start of the competition is in from next season. Ambitious players will not move as they will miss out on 2 seasons of senior cup rugby. It could of course be overturned at the schools AGM but I can think of loads of schools who will support it. Cbc, pres bray, Castleknock, newbridge off the top of my head have all lost stars to prominent schools in recent years. Hopefully this discussion is a thing of the past.

Bulls*** rule. Denying genuine students who move for education with rugby a plus. Some of my best friends came in 5th year and were not there for a scholarship. Brilliant players but they weren't there for that purpose.

thebaz

Bridge93 wrote: »

Can anyone tell me previous Rock year imports? They genuinely may have slipped my mind.

jason harris wright was a brilliant schools player , left an excellent Pres team for Rock.
I don't think its good for the competition, star players leaving for the big schools. when i played there was usually about 6 or 7 who could win - now its the same 3 or 4 - what Andrews did last year was brilliant , as i believe that team developed from what was available. That to me is what can be magic about the schools cup rugby.

Ed The Equalizer

yuanbix wrote: »

As a Castleknock past pupil I'd like to register my disgust at the state of this competition. What happened today wasn't fair on the players or families involved.

All the while our star centre is instrumental in the blue and white in beating on Terenure College on Sunday.

Something is rotten with this competition. We get it guys, you like to win cups, some of us enjoy an actual competition.

When did he move? The start of this year?

The Lost Sheep

its_phil wrote: »

Bulls*** rule. Denying genuine students who move for education with rugby a plus. Some of my best friends came in 5th year and were not there for a scholarship. Brilliant players but they weren't there for that purpose.

Not bull**** rule at all and better for all that this is in place.

yuanbix

Of course other schools do it. I know the Blackrock principal is obsessed with winning the Senior Cup and the free advertising it brings. When you have unquestioning quotes like the below where's the surprise that it pays to poach.

"Hugo Kean, centre Kyle Dixon, winger Stephen Kilgallen, nimble scrumhalf Patrick Patterson and outhalf Conor Dean. It’s worth noting that only Kean and Doris remain from last year’s champions who have already supplied six bodies to the Ireland under-20 squad.

And to think that this is supposed to be a lull in Blackrock’s dominance of schools rugby. Then you see famous surnames living up to their reputations and know it will take the most clinical of opponents to stop Blackrock"

Lull Cummiskey? Of course the lull of 2010-2012 was arrested once a few problem positions were acquired from elsewhere. Wowsers Blackrock, replacing your players with Leinster representatives from your competitiors

its_phil

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Not bull**** rule at all and better for all that this is in place.

Nonsense. Why? So the youth system can keep a few players? 10 months I might understand, 20 is ridiculous.

yuanbix

Ed The Equalizer wrote: »

When did he move? The start of this year?

Yes

"So, what is in store in 2014 for skipper and Meath minor footballer Jack O'Sullivan and this experienced squad? The entire three-quarter line and all but two of last year's starting pack are available for selection again. That is a pretty solid foundation by any standard.

Darragh Scanlon, Sean O'Heir, Eoghan Murphy and Kyle Dixon have all represented Leinster this season while the multi-talented Dixon, along with lock forward O'Sullivan, James Cullen and Cathal Bermingham are all members of the Royal county minor Gaelic Football squad.

And not to be outdone, the Dublin minors are also represented, albeit through hurling in the guise of Colin Lynch.

'Knock topped their pool in the league before bowing out to Roscrea (11-8) in the semi-finals. "

Last years Castleknock side.

The Lost Sheep

its_phil wrote: »

Nonsense. Why? So the youth system can keep a few players? 10 months I might understand, 20 is ridiculous.

No so schools compete using who they have and don't parachute players in to win a trophy. 20 months means 2 school years which is fair.

yuanbix

thebaz wrote: »

jason harris wright was a brilliant schools player , left an excellent Pres team for Rock.
I don't think its good for the competition, star players leaving for the big schools. when i played there was usually about 6 or 7 who could win - now its the same 3 or 4 - what Andrews did last year was brilliant , as i believe that team developed from what was available. That to me is what can be magic about the schools cup rugby.

Jason Harris Wrights Pres team got to the Junior Cup final v Blackrock.

3 years later he went to Blackrock and Pres were knocked out in the Vinnie Murray (destroyed his classmates morale). He actually went to Michaels for a day but as they would only cover half his fees he was happily taken by Blackrock.

its_phil

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

No so schools compete using who they have and don't parachute players in to win a trophy. 20 months means 2 school years which is fair.

Parachuting players into 6th year I disagree with. But the majority of players who moved to my school came for the senior cycle of school and went into 5th year. Labeling every kid who moves school as "parachuting" is nonsense carry on.

Bridge93

yuanbix wrote: »

Of course other schools do it. I know the Blackrock principal is obsessed with winning the Senior Cup and the free advertising it brings. When you have unquestioning quotes like the below where's the surprise that it pays to poach.

"Hugo Kean, centre Kyle Dixon, winger Stephen Kilgallen, nimble scrumhalf Patrick Patterson and outhalf Conor Dean. It’s worth noting that only Kean and Doris remain from last year’s champions who have already supplied six bodies to the Ireland under-20 squad.

And to think that this is supposed to be a lull in Blackrock’s dominance of schools rugby. Then you see famous surnames living up to their reputations and know it will take the most clinical of opponents to stop Blackrock"

Lull Cummiskey? Of course the lull of 2010-2012 was arrested once a few problem positions were acquired from elsewhere. Wowsers Blackrock, replacing your players with Leinster representatives from your competitiors

Rock winning team in 2013:
Jack Power - willow park
Sean Coughlan - willow park
Garry Ringrose - willow park
Stephen Lawton - 1st year
Zach O Hagan - 2nd year
Peter Quirke - Willow Park
Charlie Rock - 1st year
Nick Timoney - Willow Park
David Fortune - Willow Park
Raef Tyrell - Willow Park
Gary Fenn - Willow Park
David O Connor - 3rd Year
Oliver Jager - 2nd year
Tom Cooke - Willow Park
Jeremy Loughman - 5th year (athy rugby club)

Liam O Dea - Willow Park
Sean Kearns - 5th year (CBC)
Tristan Brady - Willow Park
Dermot O Flynn - Willow Park
Jack Dwan - Willow Park
Dane Fitzpatrick - 1st year
Hugo Kean - Willow Park
Evan Holland - 1st year

As I said 2014 was dreadful and way over the top (they probably would've won anyway) but isn't the norm.

Funny Terenure don't get the same abuse for it. Must be because they didn't win it with their team of mercenaries.

yuanbix

Funny how Blackrock find space for all these star rugby players and other big schools like Belvedere don't. Yup.

yuanbix

Bridge93 wrote: »

Rock winning team in 2013:
Jack Power - willow park
Sean Coughlan - willow park
Garry Ringrose - willow park
Stephen Lawton - 1st year
Zach O Hagan - 2nd year
Peter Quirke - Willow Park
Charlie Rock - 1st year
Nick Timoney - Willow Park
David Fortune - Willow Park
Raef Tyrell - Willow Park
Gary Fenn - Willow Park
David O Connor - 3rd Year
Oliver Jager - 2nd year
Tom Cooke - Willow Park
Jeremy Loughman - 5th year (athy rugby club)

Liam O Dea - Willow Park
Sean Kearns - 5th year (CBC)
Tristan Brady - Willow Park
Dermot O Flynn - Willow Park
Jack Dwan - Willow Park
Dane Fitzpatrick - 1st year
Hugo Kean - Willow Park
Evan Holland - 1st year

As I said 2014 was dreadful and way over the top (they probably would've won anyway) but isn't the norm.

Funny Terenure don't get the same abuse for it. Must be because they didn't win it with their team of mercenaries.

It happened one year with Terenure. Not a pattern

If there were one school who could do the same annually as well it would be them

milosh

yuanbix wrote: »

Jason Harris Wrights Pres team got to the Junior Cup final v Blackrock.

3 years later he went to Blackrock and Pres were knocked out in the Vinnie Murray (destroyed his classmates morale). He actually went to Michaels for a day but as they would only cover half his fees he was happily taken by Blackrock.

You are giving him a little too much credit as good and all as he was. At least 3 others from that junior final squad played senior cup for other schools. No scholarships involved as far as I know and that includes Harris-Wright.

Bridge93

yuanbix wrote: »

It happened one year with Terenure. Not a pattern

If there were one school who could do the same annually as well it would be them

Not that one method is more ethical than the other but all of Terenures came from other cup schools.
Rock last year had Kearns from CBC but two from clubs and one repeating his leaving cert from clubs. Not weakening competitors just unfairly strengthening themselves. The effect on youth rugby of this is a different argument.

yuanbix

forum.leinsterfans.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2443&start=20

yuanbix

Bridge93 wrote: »

Not that one method is more ethical than the other but all of Terenures came from other cup schools.
Rock last year had Kearns from CBC but two from clubs and one repeating his leaving cert from clubs. Not weakening competitors just unfairly strengthening themselves. The effect on youth rugby of this is a different argument.

According to last year's thread CBC's team at Junior cup with Kearns lost to Blackrock by a few points. Rock went on to steamroll everyone including Marys in the semi final.

3 years later Kears is playing TEN for Blackrock and they win by 28 points, against CBC.

Yea not weakeying at all