Schools Cup 2014/2015 *mod warning post 1*

otbrugby

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

While the individual players do benefit does Irish Rugby as a whole benefit?
Take Sean O Brien, if he had went to "x" school at 17 he would have played a higher standard of game outside of representative rugby but what would that do to help others from Tullow etc who don't or didn't have opportunity to go to a rugby playing school?
Rugby has/had an image in Ireland of being quite elitist and the acceptance that its ok for youngsters to move to schools that are generally fee paying schools for rugby doesn't help rugby's images. There is plenty more Sean O Briens, Trevor Brennans, Tommy O Donnells, Jack O Donoghues out there but we need to get the systems right to truly get the best out of those who are not and can not and will not attend one of the few select schools

it's rugby job to give players at clubs as much support and coaching as they would receive at a big school.. otherwise of course most players are going to go to a private school, where they will more than likely get a better education, play a higher level of competition and get better support structures.

would Jeremy Loughman have been better off still playing number 8 for Athy every weekend or playing prop for Rock? Simple answer.

ArmchairQB

RedemptionZ wrote: »

I'm in two minds about players being recruited. There is the one half that says it's a disgrace and completely against the spirit of the game and can ruin a teams chances of any success when their best players are poached away, and other teams then face these 'teenage galacticos' of sorts. Not to mention other hardworking players losing their spots to the recruits. Doesn't seem fair.

But then there's the Irish rugby side of me that says if they're playing for Blackrock instead of say Pres Bray, they're getting access to much better facilities and will probably benefit as a player at a crucial point in development, Ireland(and their province) will benefit from this.

Also with regards to how Michaels get by without recruiting, it's simple, rugby playing junior school supplies half the year, invested in great coaching throughout all the years 1st-6th, not just the SCT and great facilities bar the lack of pitches. Junior school is a huge help, but I have no doubt that say Castleknock's or Gonzaga's rugby programmes could learn a few things from them.

I would say that one of the biggest reasons Rock have won cup instead of Michaels last few years is poor coaching. I wouldn't be impressed by their coaching I actually think it is holding them back from being consistently the top team in Leinster. Nothing personal and no connection to Rock but if Peter Smith coached Michaels they would have won last 2 Senior Cups imo

Bridge93

ArmchairQB wrote: »

I would say that one of the biggest reasons Rock have won cup instead of Michaels last few years is poor coaching. I wouldn't be impressed by their coaching I actually think it is holding them back from being consistently the top team in Leinster. Nothing personal and no connection to Rock but if Peter Smith coached Michaels they would have won last 2 Senior Cups imo

Michaels were not winning the Senior Cup last year. They were a long long way behind Rock, lucky not to lose the quarter final by more. The year before I would probably agree with you.
I still think that Rock team in 2013 were, talent wise, the 3rd if not 4th best team in the competition behind Michaels, Nure and maybe Roscrea. What they did have was huge self belief after losing only once in pre season. They knew what they were good at and did it very well while limiting as best they could their weaknessess. They also seemed to be giving everything for each other.

2013 looking back looks to have been a golden year for the competition. 4/5 teams all with realistic hopes of winning it and look at the very young u20s irish team last year and the potential in it this year.

otbrugby

Noone else was winning the cup last year but rock.

Michaels should have won it the year before with all the talent they had but that's rugby.. this will be there best chance for awhile i'd say although they'll remain competitive.

ArmchairQB

Yeah if they won it 2 seasons ago and they certainly had the talent to win, it could have lifted them massively for last year but is only what ifs and maybes. Remember watching them v Rock and they looked clueless going forward despite having a hugely talented team. Whilst as said above Rock just seemed to do the right thing at the right time well drilled and very competent. I reckon th2013 team will long regret that season

its_phil

FrannoFan wrote: »

Field one team in first year,one team in second year and become cup contenders in third year?what they have a freak year of exceptional 20 athletes happen to be in the year every year?
Clearly something up. Tough on the other league schools like kings hospital and Gonzaga who felt they had a good chance this year and that happens.
Rock might recruit but clearly Roscrea doing plenty of their own.

The junior cup team for Roscrea has been awful the past couple years. Nearly lost to St Pats I think? They got a decent one this year it seems but as far back as two years ago "recruitment" did not exist at junior level.

EDIT: It was St. Fintans not Pats.

rugby addict

Word on the street is that half the Roscrea junior team are in fourth year.
Was at the kh castleknock semi-final, Knock were a very well organised and conditioned team, they were really impressive in turning over a more talented but very disorganized/shell shocked Kh team.
It's all about the standard of coaches imo, and from first year not just cup years.

RedemptionZ

ArmchairQB wrote: »

I would say that one of the biggest reasons Rock have won cup instead of Michaels last few years is poor coaching. I wouldn't be impressed by their coaching I actually think it is holding them back from being consistently the top team in Leinster. Nothing personal and no connection to Rock but if Peter Smith coached Michaels they would have won last 2 Senior Cups imo

Kelvin Leahy was a great coach I thought, in 2013 under Skehan they should have won and no doubt that match will haunt some of those players, easily the better team on paper than that rock team full of 5th years. 2014 though I don't think they had the players to beat that rock squad so think it's unfair to say that under a better coach they would have won(though the coaching there currently isn't particularly great IMO, very conservative). The coaching could be better I have no doubt but 6 JC finals in a row can't be down to pure coincidence of having freak years.

The Lost Sheep

otbrugby wrote: »

bollix if your talented you will get noticed, simple as but it takes more than just talent to make it.

Not "bollix" at all. It isn't as simple as you are making out at all. If it was then so many 16/17/18 year olds talented at rugby wouldn't be moving to the Blackrocks/Clongowes/Roscreas etc of this world after a season or two of provincial/national representative rugby

otbrugby wrote: »

it's rugby job to give players at clubs as much support and coaching as they would receive at a big school.. otherwise of course most players are going to go to a private school, where they will more than likely get a better education, play a higher level of competition and get better support structures.

would Jeremy Loughman have been better off still playing number 8 for Athy every weekend or playing prop for Rock? Simple answer.

Loughman wouldn't be better off if he had been playing no8 but the problem is not the individual cases its every individual case being looked at as one. Rugby is seen as elitist by many in the country and while things have changed in recent years for the better these transfers don't help

rugby addict wrote: »

Word on the street is that half the Roscrea junior team are in fourth year.
Was at the kh castleknock semi-final, Knock were a very well organised and conditioned team, they were really impressive in turning over a more talented but very disorganized/shell shocked Kh team.
It's all about the standard of coaches imo, and from first year not just cup years.

Interesting if there is a lot in 4th year. They'd all be at least 6 months younger than the eligibility date for oldest players able to play junior cup
Of course its all about standard of coaches...

Bridge93

when are the Leinster draws?

The Lost Sheep

Bridge93 wrote: »

when are the Leinster draws?

December 8th

Inspector Coptoor

Rock beat Belvo 20-13.

Good game. 2 tries apiece

otbrugby

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Rock beat Belvo 20-13.

Good game. 2 tries apiece

any idea on the teams?

Inspector Coptoor

No idea about Rock other than they had a second row injured last week and had a prop not playing.

Belvo were not too far off full strength.
Couple of injuries and a couple more away on trips.

Both teams will improve a lot Between now and Feb

milosh

rugby addict wrote: »

Word on the street is that half the Roscrea junior team are in fourth year.
Was at the kh castleknock semi-final, Knock were a very well organised and conditioned team, they were really impressive in turning over a more talented but very disorganized/shell shocked Kh team.
It's all about the standard of coaches imo, and from first year not just cup years.

It is absolutely not credible that half of the Roscrea team are 4th years. No Principal is going to put the reputation of the school at such risk by cheating in a high profile competition. Also teams need to be submitted for cup games and the league final.

They are openly recruiting players at Junior level though. With their numbers they could not compete as a section B school without doing so. They have numerous lads on scholarships and they are a frighteningly big side for Junior level. As the rules stand they are playing perfectly within them. It may not be fair on other schools but that is life.

Bridge93

milosh wrote: »

It is absolutely not credible that half of the Roscrea team are 4th years. No Principal is going to put the reputation of the school at such risk by cheating in a high profile competition. Also teams need to be submitted for cup games and the league final.

They are openly recruiting players at Junior level though. With their numbers they could not compete as a section B school without doing so. They have numerous lads on scholarships and they are a frighteningly big side for Junior level. As the rules stand they are playing perfectly within them. It may not be fair on other schools but that is life.

You can be underage for Junior Cup in 4th year.

milosh

Bridge93 wrote: »

You can be underage for Junior Cup in 4th year.

You can but it is next to impossible to be. You need to start secondary school at 12 years and 2 months at the oldest. The chances are you are younder than most 3rd years so their is no advantage in playing 4th years. The post suggested that over half the team were 4th years. It is simply not possible that so many are that young. In the school I work in there is not 1 under age 4th year and there has only been 1 in my time there.

The Lost Sheep

milosh wrote: »

It is absolutely not credible that half of the Roscrea team are 4th years. No Principal is going to put the reputation of the school at such risk by cheating in a high profile competition. Also teams need to be submitted for cup games and the league final.

They are openly recruiting players at Junior level though. With their numbers they could not compete as a section B school without doing so. They have numerous lads on scholarships and they are a frighteningly big side for Junior level. As the rules stand they are playing perfectly within them. It may not be fair on other schools but that is life.

It is entirely credible. The students who are 4th years are very young for their year group and they are not cheating by playing such players.
Your complaints are way over the top. They are not doing anything wrong and what would you want to change about the rules to counter act the approach of a school who has won 1 junior cup in its history and not won a senior cup.

milosh wrote: »

You can but it is next to impossible to be. You need to start secondary school at 12 years and 2 months at the oldest. The chances are you are younder than most 3rd years so their is no advantage in playing 4th years. The post suggested that over half the team were 4th years. It is simply not possible that so many are that young. In the school I work in there is not 1 under age 4th year and there has only been 1 in my time there.

I coach a club under 16 team. There is 6/7 players who are currently under 15 and in third year and will be playing u16 club rugby(same age group as junior cup) next season when in 4th/5th year. It is entirely possible for a considerable number of players to be in the situation the OP described.

milosh

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

It is entirely credible. The students who are 4th years are very young for their year group and they are not cheating by playing such players.
Your complaints are way over the top. They are not doing anything wrong and what would you want to change about the rules to counter act the approach of a school who has won 1 junior cup in its history and not won a senior cup.
I coach a club under 16 team. There is 6/7 players who are currently under 15 and in third year and will be playing u16 club rugby(same age group as junior cup) next season when in 4th/5th year. It is entirely possible for a considerable number of players to be in the situation the OP described.

In Leinster schools if you are in 4th year it is under 16 on the 1st July. If you are in 3rd year it is the same as clubs i.e. Under 16 on the 1st January. It under 15 1/2 for 4th years basically.

Just to confuse matters this rule is not in place in Munster or Connacht (lots of 4th years are eligible) and in ulster JCT is under 15 on July 1st i.e under 15 and a half.

In Leinster where Roscrea play and where i work in schools rugby it is as rares as hens teeth to have a 4th year Junior.

milosh

Also you misunderstood me. I say fair play to Roscrea. If they need scholarship kids to keep going at a decent level let them at it. They are a fantastic school who produce fine young men.

rugby addict

milosh wrote: »

It is absolutely not credible that half of the Roscrea team are 4th years. No Principal is going to put the reputation of the school at such risk by cheating in a high profile competition.

I'm not accusing them of cheating. It probably isn't quite half the team, a small bit of hyperbole; but those were the words used by lads who go to Roscrea.

its_phil

milosh wrote: »

In Leinster where Roscrea play and where i work in schools rugby it is as rares as hens teeth to have a 4th year Junior.

Not really I remember my own year, there was 6 lads who were still underage when they were in 4th year.

Bennyk77

Asked a coach I know in Roscrea and they have no TY on JCT team. By the looks of this conversation any parent who wants to improve their sons education and as a consequence their rugby is being recruited by Rock, Clongowes, Roscrea etc. madness.... Unfair to KH and Gonzaga..Jeremy Staunton has made all the difference to Castleknock team. Roscrea lost 2 league games and finished second in their group as did castleknock. Both teams overturned favorites in semi finals so I'm sure both KH and Gonzaga (both excellent schools) will look at how they lost one off games to weaker teams as opposed to silly excuses as are being made on this discussion.

milosh

It is in our place. One 4th year has played Junior for us in 10 years. Anyway the point is their is no physical advantage in having 4th years on the team in Leinster. If any are underage to play they are most likely younger than the vast majority of their team mates and opposition.

When the ruling came in, it was argued for the date to remain July 1st for 4th years so as that the competition in Leinster would remain a predominately 3rd year contest.

When you compare them to Munster Schools JCT where it is strictly Under 16 on Jan 1st, the teams are far more likely to have significant numbers of 4th Year Juniors who are born in the early months of the year. If my school played in Munster 6 of last years Junior staring team would be underage again.

I would imagine that there are less 2nd year JCT players in Munster Schools also. When smaller Leinster schools play they could easily have 4 or 5 2nd years on a team playing against a school with 4 or 5 4th years. It is a very strange anomaly that schools in one country all play under different variations of the age rules.

funtime93

Bridge93 wrote: »

Michaels and schools like Marys and Gonzaga appear to be the ones doing it the traditional route of whatever comes through the school is what theyve got.
Although a few years ago, few of my friends who were in Gonzaga said Andy Marks was approached by Michaels with a place in the school. 2012/2013 i think it was when he was going into fifth year but he turned down the place.

Highly doubt that.

milosh

Some schools have competitive advantages over others and that's just life. Look at all the top schools and they will have one or all of the following:
Big numbers - Rock, terenure, belvedere, Michaels
Single Sex -all
Boarding facilities - Rock, Clongowes,
Strong financial investment - All
Junior School - Rock, Terenure, Michaels, St Mary's

It is nearly impossible for anyone else to win the Senior Cup outside these 6 and going forward it might be even difficult for Marys.
Castleknock who believe they are in the same class as the big teams didn't even qualify this year.
If Roscrea or any smaller school give scholarships then fair play to them.

its_phil

milosh wrote: »

Some schools have competitive advantages over others and that's just life. Look at all the top schools and they will have one or all of the following:
Big numbers - Rock, terenure, belvedere, Michaels
Single Sex -all
Boarding facilities - Rock, Clongowes,
Strong financial investment - All
Junior School - Rock, Terenure, Michaels, St Mary's

It is nearly impossible for anyone else to win the Senior Cup outside these 6 and going forward it might be even difficult for Marys.
Castleknock who believe they are in the same class as the big teams didn't even qualify this year.
If Roscrea or any smaller school give scholarships then fair play to them.

I don't think it's impossible you only need the recent examples of Newbridge, Monkstown and Roscrea. They were all capable of winning the cup. League schools are up against it but it's just about waiting for a good crop of players to come around and to put it bluntly having a one-off year. Unfortunatley it doesn't happen as often as it does for Rock, Michaels etc.

Bridge93

milosh wrote: »

Some schools have competitive advantages over others and that's just life. Look at all the top schools and they will have one or all of the following:
Big numbers - Rock, terenure, belvedere, Michaels
Single Sex -all
Boarding facilities - Rock, Clongowes,
Strong financial investment - All
Junior School - Rock, Terenure, Michaels, St Mary's

It is nearly impossible for anyone else to win the Senior Cup outside these 6 and going forward it might be even difficult for Marys.
Castleknock who believe they are in the same class as the big teams didn't even qualify this year.
If Roscrea or any smaller school give scholarships then fair play to them.

Now you're creating double standards. You can't say fairplay to Roscrea for offering scholarships or giving places in the school to rugby players, if at the same time giving out about Rock or Terenure or Clongowes doing it.

I don't agree with recruitment at all, from any school. Just because some schools have bigger resources than others doesn't make it ok for a smaller school to go out and recruit. Two wrongs also dont make a right if the argument is well if some schools are doing it we may as well do it too. Bigger schools having more resources is no different to any other line of sport. Brazil have more football players than Ireland, which means they are a better team 99% of the time. That's just how it works.

I hope it is a practice that is eradicated but it will be very difficult to do.

Bridge93

funtime93 wrote: »

Highly doubt that.

I don't know personally but one of the lads was the year ahead of him in school and was close to the team. I would trust his word but as I said I dont know

milosh

Bridge93 wrote: »

Now you're creating double standards. You can't say fairplay to Roscrea for offering scholarships or giving places in the school to rugby players, if at the same time giving out about Rock or Terenure or Clongowes doing it.

I don't agree with recruitment at all, from any school. Just because some schools have bigger resources than others doesn't make it ok for a smaller school to go out and recruit. Two wrongs also dont make a right if the argument is well if some schools are doing it we may as well do it too. Bigger schools having more resources is no different to any other line of sport. Brazil have more football players than Ireland, which means they are a better team 99% of the time. That's just how it works.

I hope it is a practice that is eradicated but it will be very difficult to do.

Probably didn't make myself fully clear. I have no great issue with anyone including Rock offering scholarships. I personally wouldn't like my kids changing school for rugby purposes but if other's want to that is their business.
What I was trying to get at is that I don't believe Roscrea or any of the league school will turn themselves into Cup winners by giving scholarships but if they want to try let them at.

Bridge93

milosh wrote: »

Probably didn't make myself fully clear. I have no great issue with anyone including Rock offering scholarships. I personally wouldn't like my kids changing school for rugby purposes but if other's want to that is their business.
What I was trying to get at is that I don't believe Roscrea or any of the league school will turn themselves into Cup winners by giving scholarships but if they want to try let them at.

Thats why i feel it's a difficult trend to stop. While moving for rugby reasons may be viewed as wrong, who are the Leinster branch or whoever to deny a kid the education side of moving.

milosh

Bridge93 wrote: »

Thats why i feel it's a difficult trend to stop. While moving for rugby reasons may be viewed as wrong, who are the Leinster branch or whoever to deny a kid the education side of moving.

It would be very interesting if any school was to propose a similar rule as to what was voted on last year in Munster i.e. if you move school you cannot play cup rugby for 1 year. It would stop lads moving in 6th and 3rd year. I'm not sure if it was passed or not but I remember it being quite divisive.

I would imagine in Leinster it would have support from most league schools, section a schools and opposed by schools who give scholarships, boarding schools and those who may not give scholarships but openly accept transfers from other schools on a regular basis.

RedemptionZ

milosh wrote: »

It would be very interesting if any school was to propose a similar rule as to what was voted on last year in Munster i.e. if you move school you cannot play cup rugby for 1 year. It would stop lads moving in 6th and 3rd year. I'm not sure if it was passed or not but I remember it being quite divisive.

I would imagine in Leinster it would have support from most league schools, section a schools and opposed by schools who give scholarships, boarding schools and those who may not give scholarships but openly accept transfers from other schools on a regular basis.

The main opposition would be Blackrock, Terenure, Clongowes and Roscrea one would assume as they can provide boarding. I'd be in favour of the rule but do have to wonder would it prevent people moving in 5th year and playing with the seconds that year?

The Lost Sheep

milosh wrote: »

It would be very interesting if any school was to propose a similar rule as to what was voted on last year in Munster i.e. if you move school you cannot play cup rugby for 1 year. It would stop lads moving in 6th and 3rd year. I'm not sure if it was passed or not but I remember it being quite divisive.

I would imagine in Leinster it would have support from most league schools, section a schools and opposed by schools who give scholarships, boarding schools and those who may not give scholarships but openly accept transfers from other schools on a regular basis.

It was passed but not to the extent the schools who proposed the rule wanted it. There is a limit on number who move for senior cup. There isn't huge issues around junior cup and its mainly 16/17/18 year olds who are moving.

Bennyk77

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

It was passed but not to the extent the schools who proposed the rule wanted it. There is a limit on number who move for senior cup. There isn't huge issues around junior cup and its mainly 16/17/18 year olds who are moving.

What is the full ruling change?

The Lost Sheep

Bennyk77 wrote: »

What is the full ruling change?

Havent a clue. Google it. Google Munster Schools AGM and you should find it

otbrugby

Rock beat Belvo 20-13 at the weekend, Micheals beat Marys 35-17.

otbrugby

Junior League Final between Roscrea and Castleknock delayed.

milosh

otbrugby wrote: »

Junior League Final between Roscrea and Castleknock delayed.

Any idea why

RugbyLover123

From what I've heard it's because the abbot in Roscrea died.

FrannoFan

Roscrea V Newbridge in Senior League final. Roscrea won 42-12 against a good Gonzaga side. Newbridge beat an improving Wesley 10-6.

Roscrea have been knocking on the door for the past few seasons. Reckon they are good to make the semi-final of the cup proper depending on draw etc.

OceanSixteen

My opinion on the favourites for the Senior & Junior Cups

Senior Cup:
1. St Michaels
2. Blackrock
3. Belvedere
4. Roscrea
5. St Marys


Junior Cup:
1. Terenure
2. Blackrock
3. Belvedere
4. St Michaels
5. Kings Hospital

rughug

OceanSixteen wrote: »

My opinion on the favourites for the Senior & Junior Cups

Senior Cup:
1. St Michaels
2. Blackrock
3. Belvedere
4. Roscrea
5. St Marys


Junior Cup:
1. Terenure
2. Blackrock
3. Belvedere
4. St Michaels
5. Kings Hospital

In SCT
Newbridge went down to Roscrea and hockeyed them in the League five weeks ago in a much more comprehensive beating than the scoreline suggests. And Clongowes are seldom out of the
semi finals.

FrannoFan

Kings hospital beaten by Castleknock in semi final,at very least can't be rated above them. Gonzaga the team to watch from the league this year in juniors made a mess of the semi against Roscrea apparently.

funtime93

OceanSixteen wrote: »

My opinion on the favourites for the Senior & Junior Cups

Senior Cup:
1. St Michaels
2. Blackrock
3. Belvedere
4. Roscrea
5. St Marys


Junior Cup:
1. Terenure
2. Blackrock
3. Belvedere
4. St Michaels
5. Kings Hospital

Seriously writing off Clongowes for senior cup there. I think they're a bigger threat to Michaels then Rock.

Stan27

What do people mAke of kilkenny college as a rugby school through the years ???

its_phil

Stan27 wrote: »

What do people mAke of kilkenny college as a rugby school through the years ???

When I went to Roscrea, we despised them which is probably the biggest compliment I can pay them. Newbridge and Kilkenny were always the games you got psyched up for and always had an extra bite to them at all levels. Boots could go anywhere. Loved beating them and hated losing to them. Our bogey team at senior level too.

Good rugby school and massive respect for them always through the years.

aspin

OceanSixteen wrote: »

My opinion on the favourites for the Senior & Junior Cups

Senior Cup:
1. St Michaels
2. Blackrock
3. Belvedere
4. Roscrea
5. St Marys


Junior Cup:
1. Terenure
2. Blackrock
3. Belvedere
4. St Michaels
5. Kings Hospital

Would have newbridge and clongowes ahead of roscrea and mary's in senior.
I think there is a gap between the top 2 and others based on what I have seen this year.

Gonzaga ahead of KH in Junior.

wesley333

I was recently attending the senior league semi final between Wesley & newbridge and Roscrea & Gonzaga. Wesley and newbridge was a very disappointing game with both struggling with a rush defence and it was very sluggish with both outside halves especially newbridges outside half looking very laboured (Poor kicking & decision making) on the other hand Roscrea ignited donnybrook with slick backs and powerful forwards. The Tongan prop Alvero Ferrageut was a titan in the loose and explosive in open play. Maybe a sign of things to comes ...

wesley333

Ones to watch from both games were Roscrea ~ Tim Foley(Out half) Tim Carroll(Full back) Mikhail Jourdan (Replacement second row) Newbridge ~ Jake Howlett (Outside Centre) Curly haired No.8 impressed as well