Schools Cup 2014/2015 *mod warning post 1*

milosh

Imhof Tank wrote: »

Well Milosh your predictions have been spot on up to this point. Cup qualifiers will be Castleknock or Gerards and KH or Pres Bray.

Castleknock only just squeezed past Skerries, Gerards have a chance.

KH have had a 70+ plus win against Gorey and then a walkover whereas Pres have had a couple of respectable margin wins against better quality opposition. They have a bit of momentum.

I would expect 2 very close matches anyway. For 4 schools from outside the big 6, these will essentially be cup ties proper in all but name.

I'm a little bit disappointed to be right tbh. I was quite hopeful that this would be the year where a couple of the Section A schools made the breakthrough in the Vinnie Murray. The bottom teams from the league (Pres and Kings Hos) had no difficulty getting to the semi finals so the 18 remaining teams in the cup are those who play in the league and the so called big 6. I know that Skerries pushed Castleknock but for the schools that have done best at Junior level in recent years (St Fintan's, Navan etc) don't appear to be able to build on the momentum to really push the league sides.

It is also disgraceful that St Mary's Enniscorthy have given a walkover. They are in the Duff Cup final so should be more than able to compete. I would be of the opinion that it is a big disadvantage to KH to have such a handy win followed by a walkover. They might struggle in the semi because of this.

The Lost Sheep

milosh wrote: »

I'm a little bit disappointed to be right tbh. I was quite hopeful that this would be the year where a couple of the Section A schools made the breakthrough in the Vinnie Murray. The bottom teams from the league (Pres and Kings Hos) had no difficulty getting to the semi finals so the 18 remaining teams in the cup are those who play in the league and the so called big 6. I know that Skerries pushed Castleknock but for the schools that have done best at Junior level in recent years (St Fintan's, Navan etc) don't appear to be able to build on the momentum to really push the league sides.

It is also disgraceful that St Mary's Enniscorthy have given a walkover. They are in the Duff Cup final so should be more than able to compete. I would be of the opinion that it is a big disadvantage to KH to have such a handy win followed by a walkover. They might struggle in the semi because of this.

It is disappointing but it takes that bit longer to push on from competing at junior to competing at senior. I wouldn't say its disgraceful that a walkover was given. Nobody knows why they pulled out of the game.

Bridge93

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

It is disappointing but it takes that bit longer to push on from competing at junior to competing at senior. I wouldn't say its disgraceful that a walkover was given. Nobody knows why they pulled out of the game.

I would've thought if it was a reasonable excuse there would be a chance of a refixed game the next day of something. There are very few acceptable excuses for a walkover. I'd say its disgraceful in one of the premier schools competitions in the province.

The Lost Sheep

Bridge93 wrote: »

I would've thought if it was a reasonable excuse there would be a chance of a refixed game the next day of something. There are very few acceptable excuses for a walkover. I'd say its disgraceful in one of the premier schools competitions in the province.

Again we don't know what happened. Disgrace is a bit much. Disappointing but maybe they looked for a change and were not allowed by schools committee?? Who knows.

milosh

I cannot recall a walkover in a Section B Cup game ever. It robbed KH of a much needed game.

offloader93

Are Setanta covering the senior cup this year? I hope they are.

spillit67

milosh wrote: »

I cannot recall a walkover in a Section B Cup game ever. It robbed KH of a much needed game.

Hopefully it was illnesses that stopped it.

Jcourtney2000

offloader93 wrote: »

Are Setanta covering the senior cup this year? I hope they are.

Yes, they will covering 8 of the senior cup matches.

spillit67

Close by, the Methodist College 1stxv was entertaining Christian Brothers College from Monkstown in Dublin. In another entertaining game, which saw the Methody team take control of affairs early on, the Methodist College team emerged as 26-18 winners. Josh Jordan opened the Methodist College account with a try which the impressive Robert Lyttle converted. The Methodist College 7-0 lead soon became 14-0 when Ben O’Reilly touched down for a try following good work from his backs. Robert Lyttle added the extras. The CBC Monkstown team came back with a drop goal, as well a converted try, to reduce the arrears to 14-10 at the break.

The second half saw the Methodist College captain, Saul Herdman, take advantage of a well-controlled driven maul by the Methody pack to touch down for an unconverted try and give his team a 19-10 lead. The CBC Monkstown team responded with a penalty, as well as an unconverted try, to reduce the deficit to 19-18. However, a second well-organised Methodist College driven maul, following a lineout, ended with Ben O’Reilly touching down for his second try of the game. Robert Lyttle added the conversion to secure the 26-18 victory for the Methodist College team.

Campbell College hosted St Andrew’s School from Dublin. The St Andrew’s School team won the game by 19-10.

Meanwhile, Wallace High School travelled to play a Blackrock College Development team in Dublin. The game was played at a great pace with both schools willing to move the ball at every opportunity. The Wallace High School team recorded an excellent 16-11 victory, one which maintained their undefeated run this season. Michael Smyth and Andrew Cardosi scored tries when they took advantage of good work from Neil Kilpatrick and Ryan Wilson. Ryan added two penalties to secure the Wallace High School win.

That's a pretty good result for CBC up in Ulster just before the Cup. They sound more competitive than I thought they'd be this year. Decent win for Andrews as well. It would be great if someone could do a similar update for Leinster schools games weekly.

http://www.intouchrugby.com/magazine/danske-bank-ulster-schools-round-saturday-17th-january-2015-barney-mcgonigle/

offloader93

Only a couple of days left to the start of the cup now. What are the stand out first round draws?

Quint2010

If Setanta are showing eight live games that means they must be showing one of the first round games. I wonder which one?

Laird

Quint2010 wrote: »

If Setanta are showing eight live games that means they must be showing one of the first round games. I wonder which one?

Gonzaga v Belvo live wednesday week 28th on setanta

The_N4sir

Terenure v Blackrock also live this Sunday the 25th

Coman123ryan

Hope rockwell draw glenstal at some point during the cup be an exciting game to watch

errlloyd

Gerards and Castelknock drew in the Vinnie Murray today, the last minute penalty was taken by a prop!

its_phil

errlloyd wrote: »

Gerards and Castelknock drew in the Vinnie Murray today, the last minute penalty was taken by a prop!

He should retire now. Life will never be that good to him again.

Islander13

its_phil wrote: »

He should retire now. Life will never be that good to him again.

I once lost a SCT match to a drop goal by a hooker! That I venture is worse!

The Lost Sheep

results from this weeks Connacht SSC group games.
Colaiste Iognaid 12 Sligo Grammar 31
Summerhill Sligo 15 Garbally College 24

Some results are up on Connacht website of the other cups but not others. Will assume a few weren't played due to pitch conditions...

Bridge93

What's the time for Sundays game in Donnybrook?

Hagz

Bridge93 wrote: »

What's the time for Sundays game in Donnybrook?

3pm

Quint2010

Hagz wrote: »

3pm

The Indo have the game kicking off at 4?

Inspector Coptoor

4 would be too late with light levels in January

fox_1973

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

4 would be too late with light levels in January

It's definitely 4pm, thought the same about the light myself

Inspector Coptoor

Ok, fair enough.

What games are on from Sunday?

I know it's Belvo vs Zaga on Wednesday

The_N4sir

Setanta starting coverage at 3:55 so must be 4pm kick off

Hagz

Quint2010 wrote: »

The Indo have the game kicking off at 4?

Leinster website must be wrong so.

funtime93

Is Tony Ward's preview out yet?

offloader93

Yes Tony Ward's preview came out on Thursday I believe.

St.Michaels seem to be getting a lot of attention from the media, could this impact them negatively? They must be under huge pressure to preform now.

RedemptionZ

offloader93 wrote: »

Yes Tony Ward's preview came out on Thursday I believe.

St.Michaels seem to be getting a lot of attention from the media, could this impact them negatively? They must be under huge pressure to preform now.

They always would have had the pressure on them, this is the golden year for Michaels probably their best team ever. Doubt it will affect the players, though from what I've heard coaching is a bit of an issue with Brian O Meara not being the best man manager and having a very conservative view of how to play the game.

spillit67

Thought the previews were pretty flat. Didn't learn much beyond the usual Cummiskey asking his mates who is good this year. Ward's are always a bit better as he takes more consideration of league schools given his Gerards involvement.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/other-rugby/tony-ward-its-michaels-to-lose-but-blackrock-ready-to-pounce-30927444.html

AndonHandon

The Donnybrook astro pitch will suit the likes of Michaels who love using their back line. Haven't heard much about the Clongowes team but that usually means to be wary of them. Not a fan of the redrawing after each round. There should be seeding too as Clongowes, Michaels and Rock could potentially knock each other out in the first or second rounds thus taking away from the final.

spillit67

No there shouldn't be seeding in the Senior Cup. The "Big 6" already have a huge advantage.

funtime93

spillit67 wrote: »

No there shouldn't be seeding in the Senior Cup. The "Big 6" already have a huge advantage.

And what huge advantage is that? That they could potentially knock each other out in the first or second round? Yeh big advantage that

The Lost Sheep

AndonHandon wrote: »

The Donnybrook astro pitch will suit the likes of Michaels who love using their back line. Haven't heard much about the Clongowes team but that usually means to be wary of them. Not a fan of the redrawing after each round. There should be seeding too as Clongowes, Michaels and Rock could potentially knock each other out in the first or second rounds thus taking away from the final.

Seeding wont happen. Any change should see a complete change in structure.
Will ideally try to get to a few Connacht cup games this week.

AndonHandon

spillit67 wrote: »

No there shouldn't be seeding in the Senior Cup. The "Big 6" already have a huge advantage.

It is essentially handicapping the competition by not seeding. The big 3 (not sure where 6 comes from as Terenure, Belvo and Marys have completely fallen away) are the main draws for matches and this should be reflected in the seeding or else the likes of Gonzaga could make a final.

Inspector Coptoor

AndonHandon wrote: »

It is essentially handicapping the competition by not seeding. The big 3 (not sure where 6 comes from as Terenure, Belvo and Marys have completely fallen away) are the main draws for matches and this should be reflected in the seeding or else the likes of Gonzaga could make a final.

The "big 6" is indeed a misnomer, especially in relation to St Mary's and to a lesser extent, Terenure.

Belvo won Cups in '05 and '08.

They will go close this year and will be THE team to beat next year.

You can't dismiss a school with a population over 1000 boys like that I'm afraid

The Lost Sheep

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

The "big 6" is indeed a misnomer, especially in relation to St Mary's and to a lesser extent, Terenure.

Belvo won Cups in '05 and '08.

They will go close this year and will be THE team to beat next year.

You can't dismiss a school with a population over 1000 boys like that I'm afraid

It is a misnomer but should competition not change so that the luck of draw shouldn't play such a big role in deciding the best teams. The best teams should be at the tail end of the competition and they shouldn't be totally affected by luck of the draw

yosser hughes

The Big 6!
Lots of young lads on this forumI suppose.
The SCT is over one hundered years old.
Makes me laugh!
Clongowes and Michaels in my day were never serious teams.
These things are cyclical.

Squidgy Black

yosser hughes wrote: »

The Big 6!
Lots of young lads on this forumI suppose.
The SCT is over one hundered years old.
Makes me laugh!
Clongowes and Michaels in my day were never serious teams.
These things are cyclical.

Seeding won't prevent up and coming teams from getting an opportunity, it just avoids the stronger teams from being put head to head in the earlier rounds as opposed to later on in the competition.

Maybe do something like the GAA championships, previous years semi finalists get a bye to the quarters?

Leinster5

RedemptionZ wrote: »

They always would have had the pressure on them, this is the golden year for Michaels probably their best team ever. Doubt it will affect the players, though from what I've heard coaching is a bit of an issue with Brian O Meara not being the best man manager and having a very conservative view of how to play the game.

Who said that about O'Meara, interesting if true. Also, wouldn't say this is St. Michaels best side, 2007 and 2013 were much stronger than this years side. I think this years standard isn't the same as previous years in my view. I'd expect Clongowes, Rock or Michael's to win it.

Bridge93

Was 2013 the best year of the competition? I can't remember a year with as many competitive teams while being at an incredibly high standard. Terenure, Rock, Michaels, Roscrea and Clongowes were all very high quality teams that would be winners and runners up in most other years.

thebaz

AndonHandon wrote: »

It is essentially handicapping the competition by not seeding. The big 3 (not sure where 6 comes from as Terenure, Belvo and Marys have completely fallen away) are the main draws for matches and this should be reflected in the seeding or else the likes of Gonzaga could make a final.

forget seeding , why not just have a competition amongst the big 3 ??
- yawn - my greatest memories of schools rugby is the underdog going on a run - not the favourite or Rock winning for the 60 something time

thebaz

Bridge93 wrote: »

Was 2013 the best year of the competition? I can't remember a year with as many competitive teams while being at an incredibly high standard. Terenure, Rock, Michaels, Roscrea and Clongowes were all very high quality teams that would be winners and runners up in most other years.

'08 was pretty good with belvo, marys and monkstown and the usual suspects

spillit67

funtime93 wrote: »

And what huge advantage is that? That they could potentially knock each other out in the first or second round? Yeh big advantage that

:rolleyes:

The Big 6 have a COMPLETELY different programme to League schools. League schools MUST qualify for the Cup.

The way the season falls is this - during September/October, there's interpros for the best players and the league starts. Big 6 schools do not have the league. I know from coaching that their entire summer programme is completely different. League schools are getting primed for September - they want to do well in the League.

There are actually few chances to experiment for league schools. When they are in the league they want the strongest possible team, so they play that team. If they have interpros away they have to look to the their second stringers but they will play the best players if available. Big 6? Blackrock have always had a Wednesday/Saturday team. They experimented. They have greater depth and a greater ability to avoid injury.

spillit67

AndonHandon wrote: »

It is essentially handicapping the competition by not seeding. The big 3 (not sure where 6 comes from as Terenure, Belvo and Marys have completely fallen away) are the main draws for matches and this should be reflected in the seeding or else the likes of Gonzaga could make a final.

Again :rolleyes:

I'm not going to rehash the unfairness against League schools, but instead the general competitiveness of the Cup.

Between 1999 and 2005, Michaels did not win a match in the Cup, in fact during that period it was constantly suggested to them that they should go back to the League. During that period Marys and Terenure were very strong. In the 80s/early 90s Terenure were very strong with McClean at the helm. Clongowes had long barren periods before Vinnie Murray.

The point? The Cup changes, teams rise and fall. It is a constantly changing landscape and it will change again. One figure in a school can make a huge difference to a rugby programme. The only rugby programme which remains strong perpetually is Blackrock, for obvious reasons.

That's aside from the fact that how the hell do you pick seeds year to year? Last year's performance? With a huge changeover in personnel? Would Blackrock have been no 1 then in 2010 after winning in 2009, despite having a middle of the pack side?

If we are going to go down the route of trying to avoid the "beauty of the Cup" competition format and look to get the best teams every year to the latter stages of the Cup, then we should go to the Heineken Cup format so the "on the day" factor and open draw element is neutralised. Not going to happen though, most schools don't want it unfortunately.

Also where do you get the idea that the "main draws" are those 3 schools. They aren't. Belvo or Terenure doing well would draw more than Michaels or Clongowes. When a league school steps up like Kilkenny in 2007, CBC in 2008, Gerards in 2010/2011, Roscrea over several years of late, Newbridge the last two years or Andrews last year the past pupils of those schools are all engaged, probably more so as they aren't spoiled with cup runs like a Blackrock past pupil.

spillit67

thebaz wrote: »

'08 was pretty good with belvo, marys and monkstown and the usual suspects

Clongowes, Blackrock and Roscrea were actually pretty strong as well.

Gonzaga had Dominic Ryan and John Cooney on their team as well.

DiarmuidBoy89

Anyone fancy any bets on today's game?, there are a lot of markets available on paddy power

OceanSixteen

First try scorer position - 9,10,12 or 13 @ 2/1

rugby2345

Anyone have a link to the game today?

RedemptionZ

Leinster5 wrote: »

Who said that about O'Meara, interesting if true. Also, wouldn't say this is St. Michaels best side, 2007 and 2013 were much stronger than this years side. I think this years standard isn't the same as previous years in my view. I'd expect Clongowes, Rock or Michael's to win it.

I won't name anyone for obvious reasons but through siblings and the like I know or know of a fair few people who played under him last year and this year. One of my brothers is in 6th year now. At the same time I heard similar things about Skehan when he was the coach, whereas Kelvin Leahy had a good reputation and ultimately he has gotten the crucial Senior Cup win. Maybe coaching needs to be looked at in Michaels at the higher levels, because it's a farce there's only 2 wins after all the talent the school has produced in the last decade.

I'll have to disagree there. Although 2007 was an unbelievable team so that's a fair choice, 2013 was overrated imo, the backrow wasn't dominant enough and the wings weren't good enough.

Bridge93 wrote: »

Was 2013 the best year of the competition? I can't remember a year with as many competitive teams while being at an incredibly high standard. Terenure, Rock, Michaels, Roscrea and Clongowes were all very high quality teams that would be winners and runners up in most other years.

In recent memory yes. Roscrea in particular you really have to feel for, they had the best team imo. Absolutely vicious pack. Should have won it.