Large Breeds and Dog Parks

muddypaws

AliBaba2010 wrote: »

Husky are a dominant breed, just do a google search and you will see statements such as this...
" When dealing with huskies, you will more than likely deal with dominance. Huskies are alot closer related to the wolf ancestor than most other breeds of dogs. This combined wih the fact that they were bred to work as packs with a clear lead dog, as opposed to working as individuals, and also that they would roam free as wild packs during the summer, makes the pack hierarchy really reinforced in huskies."

I'd rather get my information from people and sites with experience and knowledge, than google and find articles that come from people without. Northern breeds are ancient breeds, and have been domesticated for thousands of years, they are no more closely related to wolves than chihuahuas are. Funnily enough, I've never yet seen a husky team with a single lead dog, there are usually two, and each team would have others that could be swapped in if and when needed. Some teams use a fan hitch, this is actually what most inuit teams use, where the dogs don't run behind each other, but are spread out.

From personal experience, I have a dog who would not be dominant at all, going by your definition, in fact, he would be classed as an omega. If I put food down, he would allow himself to be driven off it by other dogs. However, put his harness on, attach him to the gangline, and he is one of my best lead dogs, taking his turns brilliantly and going past all distractions. He also has a fairly low prey drive, for a husky. I've actually been engaged in a discussion on a husky page this morning about prey drive, whether its down to a dog's individual personality or breeding, and the discussion has led onto good lead dogs etc.

AliBaba2010 wrote: »

Regarding the muzzle, its for my dogs protection. If he wasn't wearing it and another male dog of the same size was being dominant he would fight with it, its not something I'm willing to risk. A certain major dog rescue service recommended this as a way to control dominance. I would never leave another dog to attack him or anything I am just blocking his dominant behaviour. Also, out of all the dogs in a dog park the muzzled one is the safest and some small dog owners feel more comfortable if the dog is muzzled so they ask me to do so.

Here's an excellent link that will hopefully help to explain why the whole concept of dominance is no longer scientifically valid. Its very sad that a major dog rescue service is so behind the times, but then people used to believe that the world was flat. http://positively.com/dog-training/myths-truths/pack-theory-debunked/

I did say that sometimes dog need to be muzzled, but if a dog needs to be muzzled because it is dog aggressive, then the probability is that dog is fear aggressive, and placing it in a position where other dogs can hurt it, but it can't defend itself can be extremely damaging. So, in my opinion, an aggressive or fearful dog should not be in a dog park.

Campingplaces

AliBaba2010 wrote: »

Thats very sad. Maybe the other dog wasn't vicious and maybe it wasn't provoked but sometimes dogs just snap at each other, they just don't like the look of one another and it can happen at any time and any size breed will do this, not just the bigger ones. Unfortunately its just their natural way of thinking.
I feel terrible for your poor dog though, when my dog was a pup he was picked up by a dog by the throat and swung about, for ages after he was petrified of other dogs. He eventually got his confidence back.

I can understand that naturally some dogs can just not get along and snap at each other but the owner seemed to think that her dog was "just playing" and he can be a bit "boisterous" sometimes which makes me think that she believes this behaviour to be normal.

Im pretty sure the dog didn't nip, it snapped, my dog was bleeding badly enough on his ear and I think some dog owners don't understand the difference between aggressive and playful behaviour.

If I was to ever get another dog I would walk it in a local park where I know the dogs and owners, not a dog park. I just wouldn't trust owners that I don't know. My dog will never be the same and it is sad to see him without any doggy friends anymore

Nody

AliBaba2010 wrote: »

Husky are a dominant breed, just do a google search and you will see statements such as this...
" When dealing with huskies, you will more than likely deal with dominance. Huskies are alot closer related to the wolf ancestor than most other breeds of dogs. This combined wih the fact that they were bred to work as packs with a clear lead dog, as opposed to working as individuals, and also that they would roam free as wild packs during the summer, makes the pack hierarchy really reinforced in huskies."

I can google search and find out that the earth is flat, Obama is really not an American and was married to a man before his current marriage and that the moon landing never happened as well. All those statements are as true as the google statement you qouted as well. However it has scientifically been proven that there's is nothing, nada, zilch, behind the so called alpha male/dominance folk stories that people still keep bringing up.

The whole thing goes back to an old study on wolves which the author of the study has come out and stated as well was flawed and the conclusions were wrong (this is beyond the whole thing of the breed separation, domestication etc.). Sadly the stories are still spread as truth and is used as a reason for things such as choke collars or hitting dogs if they don't behave to "prove who's the alpha male of the pack" when in reality all it works out as in practice is animal abuse.

AliBaba2010

Y2KBOS86 wrote: »

Putting a muzzle on your poor dog in a dog park!!

Complete madness.

Your putting your dog in serious danger doing that.

What happens if your dog gets attacked by a much bigger dog?

How is he going protect himself?

You won't be able to get a big dog off him, your dog won't be able to protect himself.

If you read my post's you see I put a muzzle on him when other dominant males come in, he isn't constantly in a muzzle. This is to prevent a fight.
Everyone has their own views on the matter of muzzles, it is a training method for my male uncastrated dominant dog... If he plays nicely with the other dominant dog with the muzzle on, it is removed!
You have no idea pal. Really you should just stop it's like you scoped this thread out and decided to bombard it with your own personal feelings.

muddypaws

AliBaba2010 wrote: »

If you read my post's you see I put a muzzle on him when other dominant males come in, he isn't constantly in a muzzle. This is to prevent a fight.
Everyone has their own views on the matter of muzzles, it is a training method for my male uncastrated dominant dog... If he plays nicely with the other dominant dog with the muzzle on, it is removed!
You have no idea pal. Really you should just stop it's like you scoped this thread out and decided to bombard it with your own personal feelings.

But people keep trying to explain to you that there is no such thing as a dominant dog - and backing it up with science and evidence.

boomerang

AliBaba2010 wrote: »

Hi
some owners of small breeds show up and my dog goes over to have a sniff of their dog and to play and straight away they start panicking and dragging their dogs around on the lead, yet they stay there and because they are freaking out so much I have to keep my dog on a lead.

I totally see where they are coming from. If I had a small dog or puppy on a lead and we were approached by a big, unknown dog, you bet I'd tense up and get the owner to call back their dog. It's not fair to scare a little dog like that - no matter how friendly your dog's intentions - the small dog will be cowed by his size, and the fact that being on lead, she can't back away.

Any introductions between dogs needs to be managed. For one thing, you can't assume that the other dog wants your dog's attention - there are a lot of dogs who don't gravitate towards other dogs, and would rather be left in peace. Secondly, if it's a new dog, you've no idea how they get on with other dogs. Your dog could blunder over and come back bitten.

I think this is the problem with dog parks. Owners assume because it's a space for dogs, that this means all dogs in the park can be let off lead to just get on with it. You have to apply the same common sense as you would anywhere you walk your dogs in public where they will meet other people and other dogs.

AliBaba2010

borderlinemeath wrote: »

But you don't have a pack of huskies? You have one, and when it wants to play or interact with other dogs it's not being dominant, it's excited and wants to play.



You are putting your dog at risk by muzzling him. Other dogs will pick up on his body language, muzzle or not and if he's giving out aggressive vibes then there will be a fight and because you have muzzled your dog, you've rendered him defenceless.

I hope you're using a baskerville muzzle rather than a fabric one, dogs can't sweat and pant to release heat so if your dog cannot pant properly, particularly in this particular weather, with a double coated northern breed, you're putting him at risk of overheating.

And google is certainly you're friend - you really should do some research on "dominance", "pack hierarchy" etc because it's all been scientifically disproven. Dogs don't want to take over the world, the study that was originally done on wolves was on a captive pack that didn't even behave like a wild wolf pack should. The original author admitted he got it wrong, science has proved it's wrong, but lazy uneducated trainers (the Cesar Milan type) love to label dogs as dominant because it gives a reason for unwanted behaviour. And the methods they use to make the dog submissive are so, so dangerous - the dog will only submit out of fear, rather than because he doesn't want to do the behaviour. Eventually all the pent up fear will boil over and he will revert to the unwanted behaviour - be it aggressiveness or biting and usually without any warning signals.

I would be very wary of the advice you're taking regarding training with a muzzle and I would urge you to google "dominance theory disproven" or similar. You've been reading the wrong articles.

Again you should read my posts about when the muzzle goes on.

I don't have a pack of huskies I have a pack of a mix breeds actually. And he is the dominant pack leader, and he's the only one who hasn't been castrated and neutered.

He is not defenceless, you think that if I fight broke out between my dog and another both owners wouldn't break it up?
He has been attacked with the muzzle on and with it off and in either situation it has been broken up and sorted it out.

Not that its any of your business I do use a baskerville muzzle.

I gave you an statement as an example using google. People have different views on dominance but I for one believe it to be true, I've done my research pal thanks.

AliBaba2010

muddypaws wrote: »

I'd rather get my information from people and sites with experience and knowledge, than google and find articles that come from people without. Northern breeds are ancient breeds, and have been domesticated for thousands of years, they are no more closely related to wolves than chihuahuas are. Funnily enough, I've never yet seen a husky team with a single lead dog, there are usually two, and each team would have others that could be swapped in if and when needed. Some teams use a fan hitch, this is actually what most inuit teams use, where the dogs don't run behind each other, but are spread out.

Again if you read my previous posts I mention I speak to owners of the same breeds all the time and we all agree on the behaviour of huskies. I got my information I posted there as an example, from a blog of a husky owner.
I have a lot of knowledge about all dog breeds, I won't get into it for privacy reasons.

muddypaws wrote: »

From personal experience, I have a dog who would not be dominant at all, going by your definition, in fact, he would be classed as an omega. If I put food down, he would allow himself to be driven off it by other dogs. However, put his harness on, attach him to the gangline, and he is one of my best lead dogs, taking his turns brilliantly and going past all distractions. He also has a fairly low prey drive, for a husky. I've actually been engaged in a discussion on a husky page this morning about prey drive, whether its down to a dog's individual personality or breeding, and the discussion has led onto good lead dogs etc.

All dogs are different my dog is a dominant male husky, yours is not. Huskies are known to be dominant breed, it doesn't mean every husky is.

muddypaws wrote: »

I did say that sometimes dog need to be muzzled, but if a dog needs to be muzzled because it is dog aggressive, then the probability is that dog is fear aggressive, and placing it in a position where other dogs can hurt it, but it can't defend itself can be extremely damaging. So, in my opinion, an aggressive or fearful dog should not be in a dog park.

Nope like I said he is dominant, he hasn't got fear aggression nor is he aggressive, just dominant.

AliBaba2010

Campingplaces wrote: »

I can understand that naturally some dogs can just not get along and snap at each other but the owner seemed to think that her dog was "just playing" and he can be a bit "boisterous" sometimes which makes me think that she believes this behaviour to be normal.

Im pretty sure the dog didn't nip, it snapped, my dog was bleeding badly enough on his ear and I think some dog owners don't understand the difference between aggressive and playful behaviour.

If I was to ever get another dog I would walk it in a local park where I know the dogs and owners, not a dog park. I just wouldn't trust owners that I don't know. My dog will never be the same and it is sad to see him without any doggy friends anymore

Well I agree if the dog snapped and really hurt your dog it wasn't playing. Walking them in a park is good because they can still socialise and feel safe. If my dog was that scared after been attacked I wouldn't force him back into a dog park either.

borderlinemeath

AliBaba2010 wrote: »

Again you should read my posts about when the muzzle goes on.

I don't have a pack of huskies I have a pack of a mix breeds actually. And he is the dominant pack leader, and he's the only one who hasn't been castrated and neutered.

He is not defenceless, you think that if I fight broke out between my dog and another both owners wouldn't break it up?
He has been attacked with the muzzle on and with it off and in either situation it has been broken up and sorted it out.

Not that its any of your business I do use a baskerville muzzle.

I gave you an statement as an example using google. People have different views on dominance but I for one believe it to be true, I've done my research pal thanks.

The more you're telling us, the more I hope I NEVER meet you when I'm out with my dogs. You may keep trying to convince yourself that your dog is "dominant":rolleyes:, but in reality he sounds like he's got a bit of fear aggression or perhaps a bit of testosterone aggression. You'll have a hard time trying to find owners who will let their dogs interact with yours given your lack of understanding of basic dog behaviour and that can only cause your dogs fear aggression to manifest itself.

andreac

But what does he do to make you think he's dominant?

Jawgap

AliBaba2010 wrote: »

Aw I love Newfs, they are such a beautiful breed in every way. The woman who questioned you is an example of uneducated and overly opinionated person :P .

I think she was afraid they were going to slobber on her dog......

AliBaba2010

When I started this post all I was asking has any other large breed owners experienced what I have with small dog owners? I wasn't asking for anyone's opinions on how I choose to train my dog.
If you met my dog, and you weren't scared of big dogs of course, you would love him. He is a happy and well trained animal, who doesn't show the slightest bit of aggression. If you brought your big male dog over and your dog was acting in a way where he kept trying to show my dog whos in charge my dog will get annoyed and maybe snap and so the two dogs will fight, and only in this situation would you ever see him fight. This is why I use a muzzle because if in a situation like this if he wears the muzzle he will just walk away rather than snap.
Whether you believe in submissive and dominant dogs or not, I couldn't care less this is my dog and my responsibility. I don't want him to get in fights. I want him and the other dogs to be happy and to enjoy each others company. If you have a problem with this, thats your opinion I don't give a damn.
Thanks for your input but this thread has gone way of topic so if you kindly F off with your high horse opinions I would appreciate it.
I have a lot of knowledge in the area of training and behaviour of dogs and I am confident in my training techniques.
I will do more research on dominance AGAIN, but I would like you all to stop ganging up on me.
If you have a problem with the way I train and control my dog, keep your opinions to yourself. I find on this forum a lot of people are keyboard warriors who troll peoples threads, instead of helping or offering advice they jump down the throats of the OP that is disgraceful.
I see a lot of threads I disagree with but you don't see me going on and throwing abuse and opinions at the OP, no, I just ignore it! Simple!

muddypaws

AliBaba2010 wrote: »

Again if you read my previous posts I mention I speak to owners of the same breeds all the time and we all agree on the behaviour of huskies. I got my information I posted there as an example, from a blog of a husky owner.
I have a lot of knowledge about all dog breeds, I won't get into it for privacy reasons.



All dogs are different my dog is a dominant male husky, yours is not. Huskies are known to be dominant breed, it doesn't mean every husky is.




Nope like I said he is dominant, he hasn't got fear aggression nor is he aggressive, just dominant.

OK, you won't entertain scientific evidence. You won't listen to experience (I have 8 huskies, 1 malamute and a husky cross here at the moment. I have worked with over 300 huskies/mals or crosses, and have never met an alpha, beta or omega dog) so its pretty pointless really anybody trying to engage with you at all. Good luck but there is no shame in changing your mind about things, and admitting that sometimes you got it wrong. I also used to believe the dominance theory, until I did proper research and got experience. I alpha rolled a dog, to my eternal shame now, and I even gave one a little nibble on the ear, because thats what you do with huskies apparently :rolleyes: Thankfully for the dogs I have moved on, I have an open mind and listen and learn.

AliBaba2010

Jawgap wrote: »

I think she was afraid they were going to slobber on her dog......

Definitely haha

Mr. Flibble

Could I interject that perhaps the OP means that when a dog tends to appear aggressive in a non-fearful way to the majority of other dogs that it encounters, tends to pin other dogs onto their back and otherwise antagonize them until they appear submissive, that they are then 'dominant'.

And when a dog tends to shy away from other dogs, roll onto their back, piss themselves, then they are then 'submissive'.

This use of the word dominant is not the same as when used in describing wolf/dog pack theory and jumping all over the OP for using this word seems irrelevant to the thread topic.

Zulu

borderlinemeath wrote: »

The more you're telling us, the more I hope I NEVER meet you when I'm out with my dogs.

That's needlessly harsh. The OP clearly is trying. And is clearly looking to educate themselves.

Frankly the OP is exactly the type of person I'd hope to bump into. Easy going. Willing to learn & do what they can. Kudos OP.

borderlinemeath

Zulu wrote: »

That's needlessly harsh. The OP clearly is trying. And is clearly looking to educate themselves.

Frankly the OP is exactly the type of person I'd hope to bump into. Easy going. Willing to learn & do what they can. Kudos OP.

Not really. One of the last posts was the OP telling people to F Off and keep their opinions to themselves, they've pointed out time and again that they would rather educate themselves from blog posts on outdated dominance theories. Somehow that doesn't strike me as "easy going" and "willing to learn". While the debate has gone from the original topic, it was the OP who brought up the entire dominance debate in the first place.

Zulu

Meh, can't we all just get along

Pretzill

Zulu wrote: »

Meh, can't we all just get along

+1 Zulu

Another thread here was shining a light on bitchyness in rescues - everyone here is passionate about their animals but can we all agree we give them a good home without the constant expert knowledge of what is optimum care. The OP was a genuine query about dog parks and small dog owners - I've only seen one or two posts about small dogs and that perspective may help the OP - I find nothing untoward to report posts but sometimes threads get completely derailed in here - And tbh I'm getting fed up with these back and forth 'I do it this way' ' This is the best way' diatribe.

I don't mean to offend anyone in particular but I really have learned a lot from this forum but lately it's becoming a minefield.

AliBaba2010

Look I didn't start a debate I explained my dogs behaviour and suddenly I'm bombarded with all this stuff about dominance not been real. A relative of mine is trainer and a vet and has had won prizes for their show dogs, and they have always told me about submissive dogs and dominant dogs. The trainer that helped train my dog also told me huskies are dominant. The dog owners at the dog park are always talking about submissive and dominant behaviour. The rescue centre also spoke to me about dominant behaviour and how to deal with it. And lastly when I got my husky I got numerous books on dog training and they all had large sections on submissive and dominant behaviour. Before today I have never even heard of dominance been proving untrue, yet I still get pelted with abuse.
Like I said on my last post I am going to research this again!

borderlinemeath

AliBaba2010 wrote: »

Look I didn't start a debate I explained my dogs behaviour and suddenly I'm bombarded with all this stuff about dominance not been real. A relative of mine is trainer and a vet and has had won prizes for their show dogs, and they have always told me about submissive dogs and dominant dogs. The trainer that helped train my dog also told me huskies are dominant. The dog owners at the dog park are always talking about submissive and dominant behaviour. The rescue centre also spoke to me about dominant behaviour and how to deal with it. And lastly when I got my husky I got numerous books on dog training and they all had large sections on submissive and dominant behaviour. Before today I have never even heard of dominance been proving untrue, yet I still get pelted with abuse.
Like I said on my last post I am going to research this again!

Who has abused you though? From where I see it you're trying to turn it into a "poor me, everyone is bullying me thread" because posters don't agree with your point of view. You're the one who told posters to F Off and keep opinions to themselves and are refusing to engage in debate.

I said I wouldn't want to meet you with your dog after 3 pages of you insisting that you had a dominant, pack leading dog. The way I see it, if you use the excuse that your dog is dominant then you're satisfied that this is the cause of his behavioural issues with other dogs. I wouldn't want to put my dogs in that situation as you don't seem to be willing to look further into it, and see what the actual problem is. That's about the height of the "abuse". I see you've said you'll look into it but my POV still stands for now!

There's lots of literature out there that is based on dominance theory - it sells books, and makes TV stars out of mediocre uneducated trainers but it does not make for good dog training. There's lots of old school trainers, breeders and showers that have been doing it for years, that haven't updated their training or methodology, when it's come on leaps and bounds in the past couple of decades. No decent trainer who is up to date on current methods would speak of dominance, pack leaders, alpha dogs, or even describe breeds as dominant. If you want a good trainer they'll be listed here: http://apdt.ie/

AliBaba2010

No I was definitely not interested in a debate, and I kept saying everyone has their own view yet I still got told basically I was wrong, when I genuinely believed I wasn't because like I said I never even heard of this theory and I was told different constantly. If you were told something by everyone (you though knew about the subject) for your whole life and then 3 people came over to you and told you something that sounded ridiculous which would you believe?
You have all convinced me to do more research.
I've looked through some of the people who were forcing their opinions on this post and a lot of them were just going on threads basically to argue.
I dont want a debate if you want a debate, start your own threads inviting debate, just stop trying to argue with me about it all.
I get the point! Just leave it out now!

tk123

If you have a problem with any posters report the posts? There's an exclamation mark/hazard sign there on the left..

You came on here looking for everyone to agree that small dogs and their owners are a$$es and didn't get the answers you wanted, then told everyone where to stick there advise again and again. It's great that your going to do more research for yourself/your dog and other owners but is it any wonder posters lost patience with you when you stuck 2 fingers up at their advise again and again?

AliBaba2010

You see you are completely wrong I was happy to hear from small dog owners, I definitely don't think they are A$$es as you say, I own 2 small dogs??? I was asking did anyone else experience what I have and how they dealt with it? And a made sure people understood I was talking about a FEW people I've met never once said I've had bad experiences with ALL small dog owners because I haven't. I told you all my dog gets on great with small dogs didn't I? Twisting things you are, you should be ashamed! I love all dogs! I've taken into account the input from the small dog owners who posted on this, and I will be changing the way my dog approaches the smaller dogs!
Fuming the way your twisting things! DISGRACEFUL

DBB

AliBaba, I'm closing this thread now because although you're ranting and screeching at people to leave you alone, not once have you reported a post, and despite a pm conversation with me, you did not identify that you felt the need to tell other users of this forum where to go. You've managed to turn your own thread into a train wreck as a result.
In other words, this thread doesn't really deserve to stay open any longer.
Thanks,
DBB