What was the worst event in modern Irish history?

flas

John Doe1 wrote: »

There has been quite a few but DeValera signing a book of condolence for Hitler and the treatment of those who fight in WW2 when they returned home has got to be up there.

Also, The Omagh bombing was the most pointless waste of life on this island.

It wasn't signed for hitler,it was a book of condolence for the german people,who believe it or not suffered greatly during the war and many of whom didn't support of like the nazis very much at all!

CrabRevolution

Muahahaha wrote: »

Just as an aside and on reflection of all the events mentioned the more I think of the emigration thing the more I think it is probably is the most tragic event in modern Irish history. Except we don't see emigration as 'an event', more of a constant daily occurrence.

I fully agree with the other poster who mentioned how we could be today if we had 12m people and our very brightest and best working and contributing to Irish society. You only have to look at the stats to see how well Irish people do abroad, in the UK the Irish directors are the most represented nationality on company boards, take a scan across Fortune 500 companies and you'll see lots of Irish pop up there too in proportions far above our numbers. Many of these people emigrated in the 1980s and if they didn't come back during the Celtic Tiger then there isn't a snowballs chance in hell they will ever now. They're doing great for themselves but the real tragedy is that they should be doing great for themselves here and creating jobs here. But they aren't because they now see Ireland as a great place to visit but also have a recognition that Ireland is well below the standard of living for the level of taxation you're expected to pay. And the health service is in a mess too, education not great either.

The other side of having a large population of 10m and over is that services can be delivered cheaper as you get economies of scale on everything from energy to pharma. Also at that population level the possibilities in the sporting arena are raised considerably. Holland only has around 13m citizens but from those 6.5m odd males they have consistently produced football teams that get to World Cup finals (even if they haven't won one yet!). At the London Olympics they brought home 22 medals across a large range of sports, both team and individual. We brought home three from boxing and one from a previously disgraced drugs cheat. If Ireland had a population of c10m I really do think we could do some marvellous things in the sporting arena.

The other tragedy of emigration though is the splitting up of families. Two close friends of mine have emigrated with young children whose relationship with their grandparents is now defined by Skype calls and one yearly visits. That's sad really, it's sadder to think that none of them wanted to go but they couldn't see a future here for them of their kids. So they had to make the heart wrenching decision of taking their kids away from their grandparents who had been waiting a long time to actually have grand kids. There's stories like that up and down the country, we have all experienced it or know someone who has. It makes me angry to see good people feeling forced out of the country because of the clusterfcuk our politicians have delivered to us over the past few decades.

The population of what is now the ROI declined from 6.5 to just under 3 million in the 80 years prior to independance, and continued to drop until the 60s. What makes you think that had we remained in the UK we would have added an additional 9 million citizens in 50 years?

You're simply fantasizing and speculating, and getting it incredibly wrong at that.

franer1970

Besieging and destruction of the British Embassy in Dublin by a crowd of thousands in the aftermath of Bloody Sunday.
Real third world stuff. Largely forgotten about now - some people I've mentioned it to wouldn't believe it happened!

Nodin

franer1970 wrote: »

Besieging and destruction of the British Embassy in Dublin by a crowd of thousands in the aftermath of Bloody Sunday.
Real third world stuff. Largely forgotten about now - some people I've mentioned it to wouldn't believe it happened!

Nobody died. Compare that to everything from the famine up to the mother and baby homes to the Hep c scandal.

BarryLyndon

StudentDad wrote: »

Really? You think the internecine crap, death, sectarianism, economic collapse, emigration, social stagnation, corruption, govt. ineptitude, religious fascism etc etc was worth it?

This little country didn't begin to come out of the Irish dark ages until we joined the EEC. As it stands we're still facing a rump of ultra conservatives in this country who'd happily drag us back to the 1930's.

SD

For the right to self-determination, absolutely. Please can you tell me how many European countries navigated through the 20th C without a plethora of political, social and economic crises (let's disregard for a brief moment the vast majority of the planet's populace and how they experience the rule of law, economic conditions, human rights and social freedom etc.)? How many other nations avoided the descent in bona fide fascism or totalitarian communism? How many other nations went from a post-imperial economic husk to offering a median standard of living that is in the upper tier for industrialised countries within 3 generations?

Speaking of rumps, this is the very word to describe our likely legacy under quasi- Westminster rule. An adjunct of a shrinking empire, with the consequent social and economic challenges that would have gone with that. I have no real bother with any of all that, and as much as I loathe the narcissistic root of the argument that "we can't govern ourselves", I equally detest the "what have the Romans ever done for us" spiel. But people have got to drop the pathetic, mournful BS and just get on with making the most of life in a first-rate society without grieving over the past.

StudentDad

BarryLyndon wrote: »

For the right to self-determination, absolutely. Please can you tell me how many European countries navigated through the 20th C without a plethora of political, social and economic crises (let's disregard for a brief moment the vast majority of the planet's populace and how they experience the rule of law, economic conditions, human rights and social freedom etc.)? How many other nations avoided the descent in bona fide fascism or totalitarian communism? How many other nations went from a post-imperial economic husk to offering a median standard of living that is in the upper tier for industrialised countries within 3 generations?

Speaking of rumps, this is the very word to describe our likely legacy under quasi- Westminster rule. An adjunct of a shrinking empire, with the consequent social and economic challenges that would have gone with that. I have no real bother with any of all that, and as much as I loathe the narcissistic root of the argument that "we can't govern ourselves", I equally detest the "what have the Romans ever done for us" spiel. But people have got to drop the pathetic, mournful BS and just get on with making the most of life in a first-rate society without grieving over the past.

Pure bloody fluke and geography. Were it not for the EC this place would still be a hell hole.

We could very easily have gotten independence without the bloody mayhem. Scotland now has the choice of independence - no bloody mayhem.

We're still witnessing the mayhem in the North although it's more subdued.

The way I see it, is a clique of Irish society wanted power and they didn't much care how they got it or how high the price.

How many people left due to economic circumstances or were forced to leave because of social factors? Those factors are still there but to a much lesser degree.

SD

bamboozle

Bertie turning up at that world leader's summit where Celia had dressed him like a canary.

The good people of Blackrock voting Mary Hannifan in

Mary Hannifan's mother suing the state after she fell in Dail Eireann when her daughter brought her in.

Seeing the amount of disgraced and exposed over paid, underworked and under qualified public servants being paid off to retire when their actions warranted firing with no handshakes and no bumper pension, take a bow Roddy Molloy (FAS) Pat Neary (Regulator/golfer/buddy of the bankers) Flannery, Kearns and all the others in the golden circle

Any of the pointless RTE programmes like 'up for the match' which are used as an opportunity to wheel out some of RTE's worthless presenters to justify their crazy salaries.

Any election which has seen FF people elected, after what they did to us and this country we deserve what we get when people still vote them back in.

Priory Hall

Selling off the fishing and exploration rights to the Irish seas.

Muahahaha

CrabRevolution wrote: »

The population of what is now the ROI declined from 6.5 to just under 3 million in the 80 years prior to independance, and continued to drop until the 60s. What makes you think that had we remained in the UK we would have added an additional 9 million citizens in 50 years?

You're simply fantasizing and speculating, and getting it incredibly wrong at that.

The 12m population figure I referred to was mentioned by another poster a few pages back and I was referring to that more as a figure to illustrate a point of how if we had a population of those levels then the price of many services delivered to the public, from energy to pharma, education, etc would come down. At a population level of 10 or 12m it begins to become a lot more feasible to look at securing our energy and driving prices down by a good 25% by building two nuclear power plants. At current populations levels it would likely be prohibitively expensive.

Other benefits from a population that size would be that we would have far more universities. With that comes specialisation and perhaps more universities would concentrate on fostering a culture of engineering and manufacturing in Ireland that has sadly always been lacking. Look at Philips in Holland,a giant of an electric goods manufacturing, exporting worldwide from Rotterdam and bringing vast amounts of foreign currency inwards in exchange. Nokia in Finland the same, another giant, Volvo, SAAB and Ericsson in Sweden. They all have a culture of engineering & manufacturing in their university systems which is where the seeds of these companies are sown.

A larger population also gives that bit extra for military spending that we are completely lacking. I just saw how the Netherlands send a Hercules transport plane down to Ukraine today to pick up all those bodies, I thought to myself what the hell would happen if 200 Irish citizens were blown out of the sky on foreign soil ? How would we get them home , does our Air Force have that capability? Do the Irish military have a morgue that can refrigerate 200 bodies like the Dutch did today ? These are things I'm not sure we're capable of as a nation, I suppose it's largely a lack of funding but having a small population where only 1.6m people are actually working full time and paying tax means it is difficult for us to move forward as a nation without that critical mass of taxpayers that medium sized nations benefit from.

Uriel.

bamboozle wrote: »

Bertie turning up at that world leader's summit where Celia had dressed him like a canary.

The good people of Blackrock voting Mary Hannifan in

Mary Hannifan's mother suing the state after she fell in Dail Eireann when her daughter brought her in.

Seeing the amount of disgraced and exposed over paid, underworked and under qualified public servants being paid off to retire when their actions warranted firing with no handshakes and no bumper pension, take a bow Roddy Molloy (FAS) Pat Neary (Regulator/golfer/buddy of the bankers) Flannery, Kearns and all the others in the golden circle

Any of the pointless RTE programmes like 'up for the match' which are used as an opportunity to wheel out some of RTE's worthless presenters to justify their crazy salaries.

Any election which has seen FF people elected, after what they did to us and this country we deserve what we get when people still vote them back in.

Priory Hall

Selling off the fishing and exploration rights to the Irish seas.

You have some warped sense of the question posed in the thread title.

One of the worst events in Irish history... the colour of Bertie's suit? FFS. :rolleyes:

feargale

I must be almost beyond dispute that the two worst events in modern Irish history were:
1. The Cromwellian War and the subsequent persecutions and forcible transplantations.
2. The Great Famine.

4zn76tysfajdxp

Gmol wrote: »

The shooting of Veronica Guerin and Jerry MacCabe

What were they doing hanging out together anyway?

harry Bailey esq

The hunger strikes,the civil war,veronica geuran,institutionalized clerical abuse... too many to mention to be honest.

GerB40

feargale wrote: »

I must be almost beyond dispute that the two worst events in modern Irish history were:
1. The Cromwellian War and the subsequent persecutions and forcible transplantations.
2. The Great Famine.

Well the title of the thread is 'modern' history. Otherwise yeah, those two points would be indisputable..

CrabRevolution

harry Bailey esq wrote: »

The hunger strikes,the civil war,veronica geuran,institutionalized clerical abuse... too many to mention to be honest.

Is every event there the joint worst event in Irish history?

And while Veronica Guerin's death was tragic, a bit of a sense of scale wouldnt go amiss. Putting it up there with clerical abuse and the civil war is fairly OTT.

feargale

GerB40 wrote: »

Well the title of the thread is 'modern' history. Otherwise yeah, those two points would be indisputable..

My good man, historians regard the modern era as commencing in the second half of the 15th century, at the Fall of Constantinople in 1453 or Columbus' discovery of America in 1492.

feargale

feargale wrote: »

I must be almost beyond dispute that the two worst events in modern Irish history were:
1. The Cromwellian War and the subsequent persecutions and forcible transplantations.
2. The Great Famine.

It occurs to me in the light of current centenary commemorations that no. 3 in terms of number of casualties would most likely be World War I. Some historians said 49,400 Irish dead, more recently most seem to agree on 35,000.

Ash.J.Williams

The cromwell invasion is hard to fathom...The fact most of the country is named in English is testament to that, i think??

peterbarlow

When the English started to breed their way into Gaelic society, had very little effect on the northerner as we didn't marry them but would be very noticeable around Dublin with the English surnames.

realdanbreen

peterbarlow wrote: »

When the English started to breed their way into Gaelic society, had very little effect on the northerner as we didn't marry them but would be very noticeable around Dublin with the English surnames.

In fairness to the English the reason they didn't ask ye to marry them was because ye are related to them anyway, being British and all that.

peterbarlow

realdanbreen wrote: »

In fairness to the English the reason they didn't ask ye to marry them was because ye are related to them anyway, being British and all that.

Was that meant to be an insult? I have no interest in modern politics hence no problem with being 'British'

Also, I was referring to a few hundred years ago, all of Ireland was British.
I had to laugh at that though, I just have to look at my family tree to see all my Gaelic ancestry, most likely have more than you due to all the mixing with the Highland Scot gallowglasses, it is our orange neighbours who have all the English ancestry.

oh and Dan Breen was 'British' as well realdanbreen

realdanbreen

peterbarlow wrote: »

Was that meant to be an insult? I have no interest in modern politics hence no problem with being 'British'

Also, I was referring to a few hundred years ago, all of Ireland was British.
I had to laugh at that though, I just have to look at my family tree to see all my Gaelic ancestry, most likely have more than you due to all the mixing with the Highland Scot gallowglasses, it is our orange neighbours who have all the English ancestry.

oh and Dan Breen was 'British' as well realdanbreen

Sorry if I touched a nerve. Dan Breen was a Tipperaryman who once said when asked if he had any regrets about his fight against Britain said 'my only regret is that on a few occassions my gun jammed' While you say that you have no problem being British, he obviouly regarded himself as Irish.

peterbarlow

realdanbreen wrote: »

Sorry if I touched a nerve. Dan Breen was a Tipperaryman who once said when asked if he had any regrets about his fight against Britain said 'my only regret is that on a few occassions my gun jammed' While you say that you have no problem being British, he obviouly regarded himself as Irish.

If they offered us an independent Northern Ireland I would take it but as of yet that is not going to happen, British is a political entity in Northern Ireland, nothing more, I am not a citizen of the Irish republic, would you rather me bury my head in the sand? I'd rather not call myself Irish as you get men like yourself telling us otherwise and trying to get an argument out of us.
What does touch a nerve though is a southern man thinking we are somehow more genetically tied to GB that you, last time I checked the Anglo-Normans were plentiful down there.

Dan Breen was still a citizen of the UK, British just like I am and you told me a few comments ago that I am British before you even asked what I view myself as so you are contradicting yourself.

kingchess

you do have the same fleg,and you call yourselves British,maybe that why we think you are British?

peterbarlow

kingchess wrote: »

you do have the same fleg,and you call yourselves British,maybe that why we think you are British?

flegs shmegs, there are many flags I identify with, ranging from the fianna sunburst to the st patricks saltire, a mans culture and heritage aren't solely represented in a piece of cloth

kingchess

peterbarlow wrote: »

flegs shmegs, there are many flags I identify with, ranging from the fianna sunburst to the st patricks saltire, a mans culture and heritage aren't solely represented in a piece of cloth

so why make a big deal about your "gaelic ancestors" from the highlands?and make the point that the English interbred with the gaels in the south?what point are you struggling to make??(ps. Barlow is a English surname according to google)

Fratton Fred

peterbarlow wrote: »

When the English started to breed their way into Gaelic society, had very little effect on the northerner as we didn't marry them but would be very noticeable around Dublin with the English surnames.

We're still doing it as well.

peterbarlow

kingchess wrote: »

so why make a big deal about your "gaelic ancestors" from the highlands?and make the point that the English interbred with the gaels in the south?what point are you struggling to make??(ps. Barlow is a English surname according to google)

God save us, Peter Barlow is a character in Coronation Street, I am O'Loughlin.

I made the point because the person said we were already related to the English and I also wished to point out that being a citizen of the Irish Republic doesn't mean you have the monopoly on being Gaelic, we have equal descent from them if not more, even if we are in the UK.

szatan84

Im not Irish so not familliar with most of ur history but for me it would be bailing the banks out and NOT collecting interest on the loan. For once the banks would see what it is to be on the receiving end of a loan.

realdanbreen

peterbarlow wrote: »

God save us, Peter Barlow is a character in Coronation Street, I am O'Loughlin.

I made the point because the person said we were already related to the English and I also wished to point out that being a citizen of the Irish Republic doesn't mean you have the monopoly on being Gaelic, we have equal descent from them if not more, even if we are in the UK.

Why are you ashamed of being British?

Cantremember

ardmhacha22 wrote: »

No it made us see what the southern Irish were really like, they stood back and let the Nationalists get literally butchered in the street.
It is a division of Irish people that will never heal,

You won't be wanting to come back to us so. Byeeeeeee.

Herb Powell

franer1970 wrote: »

Besieging and destruction of the British Embassy in Dublin by a crowd of thousands in the aftermath of Bloody Sunday.
Real third world stuff. Largely forgotten about now - some people I've mentioned it to wouldn't believe it happened!

Never lost too much sleep over that, tbh. People expressing their rage, quite rightly.

peterbarlow wrote: »

When the English started to breed their way into Gaelic society, had very little effect on the northerner as we didn't marry them but would be very noticeable around Dublin with the English surnames.

That's some crazy shiit.

Cantremember

The copper fastening of the position of the RC church in the 1937 constitution. Effectively emasculated the country and strangled the emerging republic. Kept generations backward and superstitious and bred hypocrisy and cover up at the cost of lives lost and lives ruined.

The_Valeyard

Omagh bombing is Defo up there as one of the worst, (very modern times)


Plantations would be the oldie

realdanbreen

The emergence of people with no religious belief or who are too lazy to study religious beliefs.

Un Croissant

realdanbreen wrote: »

The emergence of people with no religious belief or who are too lazy to study religious beliefs.

Oh my science, what do you mean?

GerB40

realdanbreen wrote: »

The emergence of people with no religious belief or who are too lazy to study religious beliefs.

You mean intelligent people?

Calibos

realdanbreen wrote: »

The emergence of people with no religious belief or who are too lazy to study religious beliefs.

Jesus, Mary and Joseph what a moronic statement. We've no religious belief because we were not lazy like most believers and did study our religious beliefs.

Its up there with, "Atheists just hate God"

The_Valeyard

GerB40 wrote: »

You mean intelligent people?

Ridiculous self righteous post. This gives agnostics and atheists a bad name.

peterbarlow

realdanbreen wrote: »

Why are you ashamed of being British?

Who said I was? As I said it is just politics for the Catholics in Northern Ireland, an identity for the protestants. I'm not ashamed to be an Ulsterman that's for sure, i'd rather be an Ulsterman living under British rule than being from the other provinces and have independence.

GerB40

This thread has turned very bitchy...

kingchess

3 of the 9 counties of Ulster are part of the Republic,not under British rule-you do know that??

takamichinoku

2002 general election? Not cos of Fine Gael bombing, just feels like that was something of a tipping point for the whole country going ****ing nuts building estates anywhere that land was available

peterbarlow

kingchess wrote: »

3 of the 9 counties of Ulster are part of the Republic,not under British rule-you do know that??

Yes I do, Donegal are very lucky but they have to put up with southerners as they go to universities in Galway/Dublin and usually work in Dublin therefore their attachment to the rest of Ulster has diminished somewhat.

realdanbreen

takamichinoku wrote: »

2002 general election? Not cos of Fine Gael bombing, just feels like that was something of a tipping point for the whole country going ****ing nuts building estates anywhere that land was available

The problem is the 'whole country' didn't go nuts , just a minority and now those of us who didn't go nuts have to fork out and pay their debts.

L'Enfer du Nord

GerB40 wrote: »

Well the title of the thread is 'modern' history. Otherwise yeah, those two points would be indisputable..

The modern era started when the Medieval era ended. Might be some argument as to the exact date in Ireland, some time in the 16th century I'd say. This isn't just some trivial technicality, do a course in early modern Irish history and most likely the period covered will be some thing like 1534-1800.

feargale

quote="peterbarlow;91585959"]When the English started to breed their way into Gaelic society, had very little effect on the northerner as we didn't marry them but would be very noticeable around Dublin with the English surnames.[/quote]

realdanbreen wrote: »

In fairness to the English the reason they didn't ask ye to marry them was because ye are related to them anyway, being British and all that.

This thread is beginning to go from immature to infantile.

feargale

realdanbreen wrote: »

The emergence of people with no religious belief or who are too lazy to study religious beliefs.

GerB40 wrote: »

You mean intelligent people?

....and from sublime to ridiculous.

feargale

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Roy Keane leaving World Cup.

Oh FFS! You forgot Mayo's failure to win Sam Maguire!

feargale

franer1970 wrote: »

Besieging and destruction of the British Embassy in Dublin by a crowd of thousands in the aftermath of Bloody Sunday.
Real third world stuff. Largely forgotten about now - some people I've mentioned it to wouldn't believe it happened!

Far too many boardsies are more interested in propaganda than in an honest exchange of views. The destruction of the British Embassy was an egregious breach of international law, the utterly unjustifiable action of an enraged mob. But before anybody mentions it again, can I suggest that in the interests of balance they at the same time refer to the murderous atrocity in Derry which caused that mob to be enraged.

FloatingVoter

The prickteaser who promised me the ride of my life back when I was in college. Then fed me so much drink that I passed out. This changed the course of Irish History. And it was tragic.
If you don't agree, you're wrong.