Two TDs arrested at Shannon Airport

dr.fuzzenstein

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

.... and that to me is at the heart of the problem!

Absolutely. Keep the head down, watch the money roll in and head down to the pub.
The same reason 17 people will turn up at a rally about peace or human rights, but 15000 if they think they might have to pay a fiver more in tax.
So yeah, turn on the footy, grab a beer and put your feet up, anything not to have to think.
Those are the rewards of wiping your arse with the Geneva Convention.

Clareman

I really don't get the whole high horse thing here. The state has told another state that they can use their facilities once they adhere to certain conditions, the other state have agreed to these, any state mandated checks are carried out and dealt with accordingly, private citizens cannot and should not be carrying out their own checks, there are departments for this. If I thought that a house in Wexford was storing drugs and went and broke in up there to check I wouldn't be just given a slap on the wrist.

Long and the short of it, if you think that there is something illegal happening, report it and ask for a copy of the results of the investigation, if you aren't happy with this then escalate it through whatever channels are available to you, if you still aren't happy about it you can either get over it or f**k off, no-one is forcing you to stay.

dr.fuzzenstein

The Irish state is complicit in torture and human rights abuses, so its pointless to report it to the Irish authorities.
We might as well allow the victims to be tortured here, for all the difference that makes.
Yes, I am from a different country, I was taught that "I was only following orders" is not a valid excuse. This may also go on in other countries, does it make it right?
We signed up to certain standards and we should adhere to them, like it or not.

Are you saying people should shut up about this and sweep it under the rug?
If even one or two people come away from this thread with a different viewpoint, I would judge that as a good thing.
And why do you think people protest? Because they have exhaustet all the official channels and got nowhere.

Dan_Solo

@Clareman
So if you don't like things you should **** off?
You don't like the way Ireland has signed up to the Geneva conventions and the European Court of Human rights I guess. When's your flight out?

CptSternn

Clareman wrote: »

Long and the short of it, if you think that there is something illegal happening, report it and ask for a copy of the results of the investigation, if you aren't happy with this then escalate it through whatever channels are available to you, if you still aren't happy about it you can either get over it or f**k off, no-one is forcing you to stay.

You think that approach would have worked in regards to ending slavery in America?

What if that was the approach taken when our country was dealing with the Black and Tans?

It only works if the government is not also complicit.

And if everyone who takes issue with human rights violations and is against torture leaves Ireland, do you really think it will make our country a better place?

Clareman

What the 2 TD's did was nothing more than a publicity stunt, high viz jackets and photographer in place as well as the timing for it to be just as the Dail broke for their summer holidays.

If you have a problem with the flights, bring a complaint to the law or your local politician or a minister or to the EU or to the Amnesty International or to the UN. Ireland has constraints in place for these flights, the people on them (if any) have not been detained in our country, if we take the moral high ground and refuse the right to land then all that will happen is they will refuel elsewhere, don't think that the practise will stop just because we don't allow refuelling.

Clareman

CptSternn wrote: »

You think that approach would have worked in regards to ending slavery in America?

What if that was the approach taken when our country was dealing with the Black and Tans?

It only works if the government is not also complicit.

And if everyone who takes issue with human rights violations and is against torture leaves Ireland, do you really think it will make our country a better place?

This is 1 of the most ridiculous posts I have ever come across, don't let facts get in the way of discussion.

Ending slavery in America was not just an American thing but a global thing, slavery was an acceptable and widely accepted practise world wide.

Dealing with the Black and Tans, what? Comparing a temporary police force enforced during a civil war prior to the availability of outside agencies such as the UN to the making available of airport facilities, what?

It's not just our government, there is also the EU and the UN, Poland got held to task for not following the rules, do you think that Ireland isn't being reviewing as well?

I'm saying that if you don't like the way of appealing against what you feel are injustices that are in place in this country, then leave. I think a county will be a better place if educated people make informed and deliberate decisions to make change, not just mad cap vigilante type campaigns.

dr.fuzzenstein

Writing a polite letter to the correct channels in this case is going to exactly fcuk all. I don't accept gtfo as an argument and quite frankly I find it insulting and offensive, so the only way I can counter that is "oh yeah, why don't you come over here and MAKE me?".
Sometimes changes do not come about by polite means, sometimes it does take riots and burning barricades, not likely in Ireland, but on can only hope
Civil courage and disobedience, look it up.

Johnboy1951

Clareman wrote: »

I really don't get the whole high horse thing here. The state has told another state that they can use their facilities once they adhere to certain conditions, the other state have agreed to these, any state mandated checks are carried out and dealt with accordingly, private citizens cannot and should not be carrying out their own checks, there are departments for this. If I thought that a house in Wexford was storing drugs and went and broke in up there to check I wouldn't be just given a slap on the wrist.

Long and the short of it, if you think that there is something illegal happening, report it and ask for a copy of the results of the investigation, if you aren't happy with this then escalate it through whatever channels are available to you, if you still aren't happy about it you can either get over it or f**k off, no-one is forcing you to stay.

So you believe it is worth a damn reporting "something illegal happening" to the very people who are perpetrating it?

And no, I will not "f**k off" out of this country because someone does not like my opinion of how this state is run.

That is one of the most unacceptable things I have ever seen posted on boards.

What the 2 TD's did was nothing more than a publicity stunt, high viz jackets and photographer in place as well as the timing for it to be just as the Dail broke for their summer holidays.

Yes of course it was a publicity stunt ...... surely you did not think it anything else? ..... or did you?

It was designed to bring attention to the situation, and obviously it has ... even here.

So I would say their sojourn on the tarmac has had the success they desired.

dr.fuzzenstein

Anyways, calming down a bit, what would happen if an Irish military plane where to land in the US and the authorities there where told "you're not boarding this plane, sunshine!"?
I reckon it would be boarded within 5 seconds whilst staff where hogtied on the ground.
This is the US bullying the Irish state, it's a cliche, but they can't just come in here and start throwing orders about.
We have certain rules and procedures and we can't just throw them out the window for some and not others.
Yes, this is not just an Irish problem, all of Europe has questions to answer.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?language=EN&type=IM-PRESS&reference=20070209IPR02947
Is rendition still going on? Who knows, but not knowing is no excuse.
How does one protest a Europe-wide problem? Writing a letter to your local TD kind of seems not enough...

Dan_Solo

I hope the EU fine is ten times whatever the US is paying for us to turn a blind eye to their torture and war flights. Only pity is the state, not the politicians responsible, will carry the can for this shame.

Clareman

I don't think I'm getting my point across and I don't think others will adjust their view so I won't bother posting in this thread anymore, but I will say that my personal belief is that individuals have a right to appeal anything through proper channels, this stunt by 2 elected officials is nothing but a stunt for their own interests

dr.fuzzenstein

Clareman wrote: »

I don't think I'm getting my point across and I don't think others will adjust their view so I won't bother posting in this thread anymore, but I will say that my personal belief is that individuals have a right to appeal anything through proper channels, this stunt by 2 elected officials is nothing but a stunt for their own interests

Well, the point is that an individual can post a polite letter through the proper channels, get a PFO and that is the end of the matter.
Agree or disagree with what Daly and Wallace have done, but at least the country is talking about it and sometimes a big, public spotlight will change attitudes of the authorities more than a single letter.
Of course people should use the proper channels, but one suspects that the proper channel a lot of the time leads straight to the waste paper bin.

CptSternn

Clareman wrote: »

I don't think I'm getting my point across and I don't think others will adjust their view so I won't bother posting in this thread anymore, but I will say that my personal belief is that individuals have a right to appeal anything through proper channels, this stunt by 2 elected officials is nothing but a stunt for their own interests

It's not that you aren't getting your point across, we get it, we all just completely disagree with you.

And per the 'stunt' as you call it, many of us would fully support what happened, as we did when supporting the Pitstop Ploughshares. You think it was for 'their' interests because it doesn't line up with your views, which is a very shallow view to hold.

But you have made your point abundantly clear here, you don't mind our country being complicit in acts of torture or war crimes as long as you don't have to hear about it and some of the locals make a few bob off the whole ordeal.

Dan_Solo

Clareman wrote: »

this stunt by 2 elected officials is nothing but a stunt

Well if it's a stunt then it must be a stunt I guess.

Mr. G

CptSternn wrote: »

It's not that you aren't getting your point across, we get it, we all just completely disagree with you.

And per the 'stunt' as you call it, many of us would fully support what happened, as we did when supporting the Pitstop Ploughshares. You think it was for 'their' interests because it doesn't line up with your views, which is a very shallow view to hold.

But you have made your point abundantly clear here, you don't mind our country being complicit in acts of torture or war crimes as long as you don't have to hear about it and some of the locals make a few bob off the whole ordeal.

Mod: Folks, you are welcome to argue both sides but please remember to attack the post, not the poster.