Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Note in OP, 13/8

Pro. F

Larry Wildman wrote: »

Yeah, maybe. I'll be crucified for saying it, but I'm not convinced by Januzaj. He's a good prospect in my view, but nothing more at this stage. Way too much hype for a couple of goals and a couple of (admittedly) good performances. I'd be wary of relying on him to be our backup at 10.

That's not to say that he won't "make it", but on the "spectrum of seemingly great talent, where Ryan Giggs is at one end and Frederico Macheda is at the other, I'd have Januzaj just past the middle (towards Giggsy).

Yeah, that's fair enough. The justification for selling Kagawa only works if you rate Januzaj highly enough. I think there are a good few posters on here who think the same as you about Januzaj's potential, so you won't get slated for stating that opinion.

ShoulderChip

Pro. F wrote: »

Yeah, that's fair enough. The justification for selling Kagawa only works if you rate Januzaj highly enough. I think there are a good few posters on here who think the same as you about Januzaj's potential, so you won't get slated for stating that opinion.

Its a very hard position to judge as well, look at de bruyne I am still not sure if I am happy or not that he was sold, is Salah better or as good, its hard to tell.

Will Januzaj up his game and become a Robben like figure able to adapt when defenders learn his traits, will he have a few flashes and become Shawn Wright Phillips or Adam Johnson, or will he stay steady but never having a season long impressive impact like Walcott - I don't know, nor do I know for Schurrle for example.

TheTownie

.

danlevy1 ‏@danlevy1 2m
Allegri: "Vidal & Pogba are both Juventus players. They are very happy to stay at Juventus and I am very happy to coach them."

The Moldy Gowl

ShoulderChip wrote: »

Hi sorry to burst your bubble but Vidal is now 3.5 to one to join United.
He was less than evens.
If you believe these rumours then go bet, if you don't the market has a lot less confidence in it happening so its looking less likely.

How many times do we have to tell people.

Bookies odds mean fook all.

Vidal is not gonna look and say oh goodness me, pp have me joining united.
It must be true

Whatsisname

TheTownie wrote: »

.

Not so happy here today watching training

Liam O

Kagawa and Hernandez looked very good together the other day, would be a lethal partnership for Madrid and they were my favourite Spanish team until last season, didn't really like Costa but with Shinji and Hernandez there I'd probably be buying my 2nd Atletico and 2nd Kagawa shirt before long.

TheTownie

ShoulderChip wrote: »

Its a very hard position to judge as well, look at de bruyne I am still not sure if I am happy or not that he was sold, is Salah better or as good, its hard to tell.

Will Januzaj up his game and become a Robben like figure able to adapt when defenders learn his traits, will he have a few flashes and become Shawn Wright Phillips or Adam Johnson, or will he stay steady but never having a season long impressive impact like Walcott - I don't know, nor do I know for Schurrle for example.

Well Januzaj is like none of those players. Hes a number 10 who was mostly playing out wide for Utd because thats where they could afford to play him and where he could adapt to the playing in the PL. He will move into the centre eventually, be it at Utd or elsewhere.

ShoulderChip

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

How many times do we have to tell people.

Bookies odds mean fook all.

Vidal is not gonna look and say oh goodness me, pp have me joining united.
It must be true

I agree that anyone who thinks the odds have a bearing on someone's decision to sign is an idiot.

bantee

Just watching last nights match now from start to finish, Rooney's goal was class. Herrera having a poor game, fouled a lot and gave away 2 sloppy balls early in the 2nd half that should've resulted in goals. Overall, it's positive though!

KombuchaMshroom

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I can't see that midfield working, if we sign Vidal it will probably be Carrick and Vidal with Mata ahead and Ander being used as a squad player

Ah will you shtop.

Probably no point discussing it yet as Vidal is still a long way off I imagine, but if he does come in there is no way Carrick could be first choice ahead of Herrara surely. They are both better in attack and defence than Carrick, he offers literally nothing that they can't do.

All that would be needed for that partnership to work is a simple understanding that if one of them does go a bit further forward the other stays disciplined and drops further back to protect just in case

steoin

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I can't see that midfield working, if we sign Vidal it will probably be Carrick and Vidal with Mata ahead and Ander being used as a squad player

What?

DM_7

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I can't see that midfield working, if we sign Vidal it will probably be Carrick and Vidal with Mata ahead and Ander being used as a squad player

I think you would be wrong

(Not that I think Vidal would be signed)

irishfeen

J. Marston wrote: »

Does the United thread have a fantasy football league? Does anyone have the code to join?

There is a free league and a €10 pay league - first post in this thread for details lad.

Rayne Wooney

KombuchaMshroom wrote: »

protect just in case

Incredibly oversimplifying summed up by this line.

DM-ICE wrote: »

I think you would be wrong

(Not that I think Vidal would be signed)

Based on...

Whatsisname

Anyone see Ogden's latest article?

The ex Swansea boss has told the ex Ajax, Barcelona, Bayern Munich and Netherlands boss that the Premier League is tough. I think he'll cope, Brendan.

DM_7

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Based on

Based on Herrera being better and younger than Carrick.

Not that I want to get in an argument, earlier in the week you were talking about Herrera being bought to be converted to a central midfield player so I don't see the discussion going anywhere.

Headshot

Whatsisname wrote: »

Anyone see Ogden's latest article?

The ex Swansea boss has told the ex Ajax, Barcelona, Bayern Munich and Netherlands boss that the Premier League is tough. I think he'll cope, Brendan.

Hopefully we ****ing destroy them. And then I will drink from a cup of Brendans tears

Pro. F

Carrick is definitely better at defending than Hererra, but Vidal is very good defensively too so I don't see why he wouldn't work perfectly with Hererra.

Since Hererra cost £28m plus income tax and VAT (getting on towards £50m total if I'm right about the rates) there's no chance of him not being first choice. That would be unacceptable.

KombuchaMshroom

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Incredibly oversimplifying summed up by this line.

I could simplify it even more by saying that Herrara and Vidal are both much better midfielders than Carrick therefore they would both start ahead of them.

Carrick offers nothing that those 2 can't offer themselves.

Liam O

Pro. F wrote: »

Carrick is definitely better at defending than Hererra, but Vidal is very good defensively too so I don't see why he wouldn't work perfectly with Hererra.

Since Hererra cost £28m plus income tax and VAT (getting on towards £50m total if I'm right about the rates) there's no chance of him not being first choice. That would be unacceptable.

That price surely can't be correct?

Rayne Wooney

DM-ICE wrote: »

Based on Herrera being better and younger than Carrick.

Not that I want to get in an argument, earlier in the week you were talking about Herrera being bought to be converted to a central midfield player so I don't see the discussion going anywhere.

So Van Gaal is going to completely abandon his norm for the past 20 years on your say so and your reasoning is you think Ander is better and younger than Carrick?

I will be shocked if Carrick isn't first choice for all of the big games this season

Pro. F wrote: »

Carrick is definitely better at defending than Hererra, but Vidal is very good defensively too so I don't see why he wouldn't work perfectly with Hererra.

Since Hererra cost £28m plus income tax and VAT (getting on towards £50m total if I'm right about the rates) there's no chance of him not being first choice. That would be unacceptable.

Have you ever seen Vidal outside of a midfield 3? at Leverkusen he had holding midfielders like Rolfes and Bender, Ballack played there as well didn't he. With Pogba and Pirlo at Juve

You are saying Vidal is very good defensively but leaving out the context of the midfield he played in, now we are talking about a two man midfield with an attack minded box to box midfielder and a player who has looked very much like an attacking midfielder

Adamcp898

Whatsisname wrote: »

Anyone see Ogden's latest article?

The ex Swansea boss has told the ex Ajax, Barcelona, Bayern Munich and Netherlands boss that the Premier League is tough. I think he'll cope, Brendan.

''Ah yesh Brendan, and you will find the Champion's League to also be ecsthremely competitive. Would you like to shee my winner's medal?''

Vic Vinegar

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

So Van Gaal is going to completely abandon his norm for the past 20 years on your say so and your reasoning is you think Ander is better and younger than Carrick?

I will be shocked if Carrick isn't first choice for all of the big games this season




Have you ever seen Vidal outside of a midfield 3? at Leverkusen he had holding midfielders like Rolfes and Bender, Ballack played there as well didn't he. With Pogba and Pirlo at Juve

You are saying Vidal is very good defensively but leaving out the context of the midfield he played in, now we are talking about a two man midfield with an attack minded box to box midfielder and a player who has looked very much like an attacking midfielder

Vidal is excellent defensively

Check out this page http://www.whoscored.com/Players/25008/Show/Arturo-Vidal

Ander is too - http://www.whoscored.com/Players/71174/

Rayne Wooney

Bombleswizzum wrote: »

Vidal is excellent defensively

Check out this page http://www.whoscored.com/Players/25008/Show/Arturo-Vidal

Ander is too - http://www.whoscored.com/Players/71174/

That website has many bizarre ratings

Also probably should never base an opinion on stats alone, look at Valencia's and you'd think he did well last season

You missed the point anyway in the post you quoted, there is a difference between being good defensively in a midfield 3 in Italy to a two man midfield in the premier league

Donnielighto

ShoulderChip wrote: »

Please educate me!
I am fully aware that they often underprice the odds to make a frenzy or a false appearance of something happening, the fact that the highest available odds have lengthened so much is certainly indicative of information in the market to the contrary of him signing.

If you were to follow the tone of this thread where people are starting to believe that it is likely then the given odds are very generous that is my point.
I am not saying it is not going to happen I am just saying that there is value in the market currently if you are of the belief that it is likely to occur.

Your name is shockingly appropriate.

Pro. F

Liam O wrote: »

That price surely can't be correct?

I could well be wrong about any or all of this, so I'm open to correction.

From what I remember from the Hererra story last summer there was an article (or maybe more than one) going around that said that players activating their buyout clauses have to pay income tax and VAT. The player has to buy out his own contract when activating the clause, so the buying club has to send him the money to do it. But then the player becomes liable for the taxes and the buying club obviously need to pay them too. Top rate of income tax in Spain is 52%. VAT is 21%.

It could be capital gains tax instead of income tax, which would only be 27% instead of 52%. Actually yeah, capital gains would sound like a better description of the transaction than income. So in that case it would be €36m + €9.72m capital gains + €7.56m VAT = €53.28m = £42.21m

edit: tax rates link

Blatter

Pro. F wrote: »

I could well be wrong about any or all of this, so I'm open to correction.

From what I remember from the Hererra story last summer there was an article (or maybe more than one) going around that said that players activating their buyout clauses have to pay income tax and VAT. The player has to buy out his own contract when activating the clause, so the buying club has to send him the money to do it. But then the player becomes liable for the taxes and the buying club obviously need to pay them too. Top rate of income tax in Spain is 52%. VAT is 21%.

It could be capital gains tax instead of income tax, which would only be 27% instead of 52%. Actually yeah, capital gains would sound like a better description of the transaction than income. So in that case it would be €36m + €9.72m capital gains + €7.56m VAT = €53.28m = £42.21m

edit: tax rates link

I read something about it before and the consensus was that the club technically could be stung for tax on the buyout but it has never happened before to other clubs.

The piece I read was referring to the Martinez to Bayern transfer. I'll try to find it later.

Pro. F

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Have you ever seen Vidal outside of a midfield 3? at Leverkusen he had holding midfielders like Rolfes and Bender, Ballack played there as well didn't he. With Pogba and Pirlo at Juve

You are saying Vidal is very good defensively but leaving out the context of the midfield he played in, now we are talking about a two man midfield with an attack minded box to box midfielder and a player who has looked very much like an attacking midfielder

At Juve plenty of times Pogba stays forward when the team are defending and so plays more like a 10 than a CM. Vidal has often had plenty of defensive covering to do in that Juve midfield even when beside Pirlo. He has always been excellent at it.

I've also seen him playing as CM with full defensive responsibilities for Chile.

If you watch any amount of Vidal you can't have any doubts that he is excellent defensively. The only possible doubt about him defensively for us (other than his knee) would be that he has always been so good and worked so incredibly hard, that maybe he's been juicing and we won't get the same work rate from him.

Pro. F

Bombleswizzum wrote: »

Vidal is excellent defensively

Check out this page http://www.whoscored.com/Players/25008/Show/Arturo-Vidal

Ander is too - http://www.whoscored.com/Players/71174/

Tackles and interceptions aren't a good indicator for defensive ability imo. They'll show how good a player's work rate and bravery to tackle are, but that's no indication of how well the player does tracking runs and covering.

Ander is not that good defensively. He'll work hard and get stuck in, but he'll also forget to follow runners into the box or get himself pulled out of position to cover when his team mates are closing the man on the ball.

TheTownie

Pro. F wrote: »

I could well be wrong about any or all of this, so I'm open to correction.

From what I remember from the Hererra story last summer there was an article (or maybe more than one) going around that said that players activating their buyout clauses have to pay income tax and VAT. The player has to buy out his own contract when activating the clause, so the buying club has to send him the money to do it. But then the player becomes liable for the taxes and the buying club obviously need to pay them too. Top rate of income tax in Spain is 52%. VAT is 21%.

It could be capital gains tax instead of income tax, which would only be 27% instead of 52%. Actually yeah, capital gains would sound like a better description of the transaction than income. So in that case it would be €36m + €9.72m capital gains + €7.56m VAT = €53.28m = £42.21m

edit: tax rates link

An article in IBT broke down the deal and described what most likely happened.

Heres an extract.

However, there are two key points for United to worry about - and here's where it gets complicated.

Furthermore, Athletic can still ask the Spanish Revenue authorities to study the case – and they could force United to pay an extra charge in terms of personal income tax (PIT) in an attempt to scupper the bid. The club's trenchant stance has brought problems before; in the summer of 2012, for example, Bayern Munich's signing of Javi Martinez was delayed for two months due to complications over tax liabilities.

Secondly, Real Zaragoza - Herrera's former side, who nurtured him through the youth ranks - are demanding €1.4m from the sale. Had Athletic accepted United's 'friendly' bid the Spanish side would have to pay that amount. However, by meeting the buyout clause, United have made what amounts to a hostile offer, and are thus obliged to pay the Zaragoza fee.

IBTimes UK has spoken to lawyers in Spain, who tell us that United can avoid the extra payment to the Spanish revenue should they complete the move before the end of the month. However, in that case Herrera would have to live at least half the year in England and have to declare his earnings to the English authorities, rather than the Spanish.

United are almost certain to have to pay the money demanded by Zaragoza, meaning the eventual deal will cost €37.4m. However we understand that Herrera is likely to reduce his salary to mitigate this extra cost.

One thing's for sure, Bilbao have once again proved themselves among the toughest negotiators in football.

They forced Bayern to pay €40m for Martinez in 2012 following the tax wrangle, while they refused to allow Juventus to agree a cut-priced deal for Fernando Llorente, forcing the striker to run down his contract to secure a move to Turin.

Now the Basques are repeating the same formula with the negotiations over Herrera's move to Old Trafford and United will have to tread very carefully indeed.

steoin

Blatter wrote: »

I read something about it before and the consensus was that the club technically could be stung for tax on the buyout but it has never happened before to other clubs.

The piece I read was referring to the Martinez to Bayern transfer. I'll try to find it later.

Also my understanding of the situation, hence the 3 amigos last summer.

Pro. F

TheTownie wrote: »

An article in IBT broke down the deal and described what most likely happened.

Heres an extract.

That's the article I think. Thanks.

I don't know how it worked out in the end from reading that now. I'd love to see a follow up piece from somebody to find out what way it went finally.

Edit: I see that article is from this summer. I think there was a similarly detailed one last summer too.

Rayne Wooney

Pro. F wrote: »

At Juve plenty of times Pogba stays forward when the team are defending and so plays more like a 10 than a CM. Vidal has often had plenty of defensive covering to do in that Juve midfield even when beside Pirlo. He has always been excellent at it.

I've also seen him playing as CM with full defensive responsibilities for Chile.

If you watch any amount of Vidal you can't have any doubts that he is excellent defensively. The only possible doubt about him defensively for us (other than his knee) would be that he has always been so good and worked so incredibly hard, that maybe he's been juicing and we won't get the same work rate from him.

You can swing that the other way and say plenty of times Vidal has stayed forward and Pogba has played deeper.

Also for the past year and a half Chile haven't played without 3 men in midfield and a lot of the time it was with two defensive midfielders with Vidal in front of them.

I am not disagreeing that Vidals defensive contribution hasn't been very good but I'm not so sure him and Ander will be paired in midfield because neither fit the disciplined holding role that LVG always uses.

Again we haven't even signed Vidal so this is meaningless at the moment but if we did I would be shocked if Carrick wasn't still a first choice midfielder when he's fit.

Pro. F

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

You can swing that the other way and say plenty of times Vidal has stayed forward and Pogba has played deeper.

Also for the past year and a half Chile haven't played without 3 men in midfield and a lot of the time it was with two defensive midfielders with Vidal in front of them.

I am not disagreeing that Vidals defensive contribution hasn't been very good but I'm not so sure him and Ander will be paired in midfield because neither fit the disciplined holding role that LVG always uses.

Again we haven't even signed Vidal so this is meaningless at the moment but if we did I would be shocked if Carrick wasn't still a first choice midfielder when he's fit.

Vidal stays forward far less often than Pogba, and even if they had both done an equal share of staying forward it wouldn't matter. When Vidal is defending in the Juve midfield he is excellent.

He has been playing for Chile for a lot longer than a year and a half. It was the Copa America in 2011 that I was talking about watching him play CM.

Vidal definitely has the discipline and ability to be the defensive player beside a more attacking player like Hererra.

~Rebel~

Pro. F wrote: »

Vidal stays forward far less often than Pogba, and even if they had both done an equal share of staying forward it wouldn't matter. When Vidal is defending in the Juve midfield he is excellent.

He has been playing for Chile for a lot longer than a year and a half. It was the Copa America in 2011 that I was talking about watching him play CM.

Vidal definitely has the discipline and ability to be the defensive player beside a more attacking player like Hererra.

Is it a bit of a waste of the players abilities to ask him to play that disciplined role though? Just feels like it would be a shame, and kind of a waste of money...if it's a disciplined holding player you want, why not just spend a fraction of his cost on his international teammate Gary Medel? He actually specializes in that role so Vidal isn't shackled for Chile.

UnitedIrishman

I don't get the infatuation with sides having to play a defensive midfielder and attacking midfielder in a two man central midfield. Vidal and Herrera are two all rounders who have both sides to their game.

If we have the ball for most of the game the necessity to have a holding midfielder is pretty much negated. Been preaching it for ages that numbers in defending the last couple of years are more important than having one man doing the Makelele role.

Think players get pigeon holed into being determined as certain types of players but most can do everything a center mid needs to. For instance Arteta moved from being further up the field with Everton to being a deep lying playmaker with Arsenal. Cesc moved from being a box-to-box midfielder with Arsenal to playing behind the striker at Barca. Yaya Toure is able perform multiple roles with City too.

Rayne Wooney

Pro. F wrote: »

Vidal stays forward far less often than Pogba, and even if they had both done an equal share of staying forward it wouldn't matter. When Vidal is defending in the Juve midfield he is excellent.

He has been playing for Chile for a lot longer than a year and a half. It was the Copa America in 2011 that I was talking about watching him play CM.

Vidal definitely has the discipline and ability to be the defensive player beside a more attacking player like Hererra.

So you are going to spend 50 million on arguably the best box to box midfielder in the world and turn him into a disciplined number 6?

Van Gaal has said it, his philosophy for the most part is always the same, the midfield there's a 6, an 8 and a 10

The 6 is always a disciplined holding midfielder, De Jong, Van Bommel, Schaar, Xavi, Cocu Guardiola, Davids going back through the teams to his Ajax days.


Also Vidal has scored 32 goals over the past two seasons surely he should be the attacking player if any.

Liam O

Having 3 CBs and someone covering them is pointless. It was a criticism I had of LVG's system in the WC, De Jong was too far back and Wijnaldum was being thrown to the dogs a bit and their central midfield was ineffective in attack, thus the low scoring games.

Pro. F

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Is it a bit of a waste of the players abilities to ask him to play that disciplined role though? Just feels like it would be a shame, and kind of a waste of money...if it's a disciplined holding player you want, why not just spend a fraction of his cost on his international teammate Gary Medel? He actually specializes in that role so Vidal isn't shackled.

I wouldn't agree with Rayne's thinking that it has to be a pure holding player in there. Two all-round CMs with one of them a bit more defensively reliable than the other could be perfect imo.

Medal is a good call for a pure DCM. I rate him as a decent player. Judging from his Spanish days, I'd always thought he would go mental in the PL and just pick up too many bookings, but in the end he became very disciplined when he arrived.

Although, when I was watching him last season, one doubt I had about him was whether he had lost a bit of pace. He seemed to get run past a bit too much. But that might purely have been because Cardiff were a shambles and he wasn't getting enough support.

Pro. F

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

So you are going to spend 50 million on arguably the best box to box midfielder in the world and turn him into a disciplined number 6?

Van Gaal has said it, his philosophy for the most part is always the same, the midfield there's a 6, an 8 and a 10

The 6 is always a disciplined holding midfielder, De Jong, Van Bommel, Schaar, Xavi, Cocu Guardiola, Davids going back through the teams to his Ajax days.


Also Vidal has scored 32 goals over the past two seasons surely he should be the attacking player if any.

I didn't see LVG saying that he always plays a holding midfielder. I understood a 6 and an 8 to mean two central midfielders without any indication of what their jobs were necessarily.

Van Bommel, Xavi and Guardiola were non of them any more disciplined holding midfielders than Vidal is. Also, in the qualifying for the last WC, when Strootman was fit, LVG played him alongside Clasie or de Guzman for the majority of the games. So that's a good example of him playing without a pure holding DCM.

Kirby

Pro. F wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with Rayne's thinking that it has to be a pure holding player in there. Two all-round CMs with one of them a bit more defensively reliable than the other could be perfect imo.

Medal is a good call for a pure DCM. I rate him as a decent player. Judging from his Spanish days, I'd always thought he would go mental in the PL and just pick up too many bookings, but in the end he became very disciplined when he arrived.

Although, when I was watching him last season, one doubt I had about him was whether he had lost a bit of pace. He seemed to get run past a bit too much. But that might purely have been because Cardiff were a shambles and he wasn't getting enough support.

He wasn't getting enough salad. He never looked fit for Cardiff. A physical specimen he was not.

Blatter

Medel would have been an interesting signing for the price he was going for considering LvG is playing three at the back. Medel was outstanding for Chile in the middle of the back three at the WC.

Backstreet Moyes

Liam O wrote: »

Having 3 CBs and someone covering them is pointless. It was a criticism I had of LVG's system in the WC, De Jong was too far back and Wijnaldum was being thrown to the dogs a bit and their central midfield was ineffective in attack, thus the low scoring games.

You mean the dutch side who were the 2nd highest scorers in the world cup and the 2nd highest scorers in the qualifiers?

Pro. F

Nuts102 wrote: »

You mean the dutch side who were the 2nd highest scorers in the world cup and the 2nd highest scorers in the qualifiers?

Two nil-nil draws at the business end of the tournament. Scoring was a problem for them and ultimately cost them.

Rayne Wooney

Pro. F wrote: »

I didn't see LVG saying that he always plays a holding midfielder. I understood a 6 and an 8 to mean two central midfielders without any indication of what their jobs were necessarily.

Van Bommel, Xavi and Guardiola were non of them any more disciplined holding midfielders than Vidal is. Also, in the qualifying for the last WC, when Strootman was fit, LVG played him alongside Clasie or de Guzman for the majority of the games. So that's a good example of him playing without a pure holding DCM.

There are interviews of him explaining this that were posted in here before iirc. 6 is the disciplined, "brain" of the midfield, the 8 is the ball circulator normally box to box and the 10 is the creative player or the second striker depending on the players he has.

He has used Strooman in both 6 and 8 and I'm sure someone who watches Holland play consistently could see the difference between the roles. Strootman is more box to box for Roma though.

You are making two points here, one we've paid so much for Herrera so he must start which I don't think is true. The second that you think that a box to box and attack minded midfielder can work together in midfield pairing, that could well be true but the only time it has worked that I can think of off the top of my head is Keane and Scholes but that was dependent of the quality of the two and Ander is a long way off being Scholes.

We may not even sign Vidal, but if we do I think going by the trend Carrick would be his partner when fit, I suppose time will tell.

Backstreet Moyes

Pro. F wrote: »

Two nil-nil draws at the business end of the tournament. Scoring was a problem for them and ultimately cost them.

They played against a very well set up Costa Rica and they set up to frustrate an Argentine side with much better quality than them. Their best striker also was no where near full fitness.

Pro. F

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

There are interviews of him explaining this that were posted in here before iirc. 6 is the disciplined, "brain" of the midfield, the 8 is the ball circulator normally box to box and the 10 is the creative player or the second striker depending on the players he has.

He has used Strooman in both 6 and 8 and I'm sure someone who watches Holland play consistently could see the difference between the roles. Strootman is more box to box for Roma though.

You are making two points here, one we've paid so much for Herrera so he must start which I don't think is true. The second that you think that a box to box and attack minded midfielder can work together in midfield pairing, that could well be true but the only time it has worked that I can think of off the top of my head is Keane and Scholes but that was dependent of the quality of the two and Ander is a long way off being Scholes.

We may not even sign Vidal, but if we do I think going by the trend Carrick would be his partner when fit, I suppose time will tell.

"More disciplined" doesn't necessarily mean that the player is a pure holding DCM. Hererra less defensively disciplined, Vidal more. That's a fine balance and both playing roles that they're perfectly suited too. Unless it turns out that Hererra is a total liability defensively, which he better not be, considering the money we paid for him.

As for successful central midfields without a pure DCM, Bayern with Schweinsteiger and Kroos and Dortmund with Gundogan and Bender, are two I can think of straight off.

Pro. F

Nuts102 wrote: »

They played against a very well set up Costa Rica and they set up to frustrate an Argentine side with much better quality than them. Their best striker also was no where near full fitness.

I wouldn't agree that Argentina had better quality, but regardless that was two games where they set up defensively and failed to score. They also cut it extremely fine by playing defensively against Mexico.

RVP lacking fitness doesn't change that fact either. What Liam said about them having a lot of defenders and a lack of goals is undeniable.

Pinturicchio

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

You can swing that the other way and say plenty of times Vidal has stayed forward and Pogba has played deeper.

Pro. F wrote: »

Vidal stays forward far less often than Pogba, and even if they had both done an equal share of staying forward it wouldn't matter. When Vidal is defending in the Juve midfield he is excellent.

Juve fan here.

Vidal is definitely the one who gets forward more than Pogba. Pogba does more defending than him. It would be a waste of Vidal's talents to have him as the holding, "disciplined" one in a midfield. He has nearly a goal every three games for Juve after all. At the World Cup for Chile he was playing as a number 10, almost as a false 9 at times. This might have been partly because he wasn't fully fit so wouldn't have been able to get forward from midfield, but still.

Having said that, he is capable of playing deeper. He's capable of playing almost any outfield position really I'd say. He has played CB for Juve no problem. He's at his best when he's the one getting forward from midfield though.

Rayne Wooney

Pro. F wrote: »

"More disciplined" doesn't necessarily mean that the player is a pure holding DCM. Hererra less defensively disciplined, Vidal more. That's a fine balance and both playing roles that they're perfectly suited too. Unless it turns out that Hererra is a total liability defensively, which he better not be, considering the money we paid for him.

As for successful central midfields without a pure DCM, Bayern with Schweinsteiger and Kroos and Dortmund with Gundogan and Bender, are two I can think of straight off.

But it's in Vidals nature to get forward, we don't know how much of his good defensive contribution has been aided by having holding players behind him, a perfect balance would need to be found

Bender is a holding midfielder and Gundogan was a number 10 converted by Klopp into box to box player. Schweinsteiger was brought through by LVG and played as a number 8 but in recent years has played more of a holding role too.