Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Note in OP, 13/8

Rayne Wooney

Pinturicchio wrote: »

Juve fan here.

Vidal is definitely the one who gets forward more than Pogba. Pogba does more defending than him. It would be a waste of Vidal's talents to have him as the holding, "disciplined" one in a midfield. He has nearly a goal every three games for Juve after all. At the World Cup for Chile he was playing as a number 10, almost as a false 9 at times. This might have been partly because he wasn't fully fit so wouldn't have been able to get forward from midfield, but still.

Having said that, he is capable of playing deeper. He's capable of playing almost any outfield position really I'd say. He has played CB for Juve no problem. He's at his best when he's the one getting forward from midfield though.

Good insight, do you think he will leave?

JerCotter7

Buying two midfielders to play Carrick in a midfield duo? LVG out.

Pinturicchio

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Good insight, do you think he will leave?

I don't think he'll leave this summer.

Pro. F

Pinturicchio wrote: »

Juve fan here.

Vidal is definitely the one who gets forward more than Pogba. Pogba does more defending than him. It would be a waste of Vidal's talents to have him as the holding, "disciplined" one in a midfield. He has nearly a goal every three games for Juve after all. At the World Cup for Chile he was playing as a number 10, almost as a false 9 at times. This might have been partly because he wasn't fully fit so wouldn't have been able to get forward from midfield, but still.

Having said that, he is capable of playing deeper. He's capable of playing almost any outfield position really I'd say. He has played CB for Juve no problem. He's at his best when he's the one getting forward from midfield though.

Any game I've seen of Juve over the last two seasons (which was plenty last season) Pogba has been switching off defensively at times and Vidal hasn't, that's what I mean about staying forward. I'm not saying that Vidal has played as a holding midfielder, nor that he doesn't get forward a lot. I'm saying he does a lot of defensive work too (I'd say he does more than Pogba) and that he does it very well.

Christy Browne

Pro. F wrote: »

"More disciplined" doesn't necessarily mean that the player is a pure holding DCM. Hererra less defensively disciplined, Vidal more. That's a fine balance and both playing roles that they're perfectly suited too. Unless it turns out that Hererra is a total liability defensively, which he better not be, considering the money we paid for him.

As for successful central midfields without a pure DCM, Bayern with Schweinsteiger and Kroos and Dortmund with Gundogan and Bender, are two I can think of straight off.

I'd definitely consider Bender a holding midfielder to be fair, although I think two box to box midfielders with Mata in front of them could work. While playing 3 at the back I don't think another player shielding them is necessary.

Pro. F

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

But it's in Vidals nature to get forward, we don't know how much of his good defensive contribution has been aided by having holding players behind him, a perfect balance would need to be found

Bender is a holding midfielder and Gundogan was a number 10 converted by Klopp into box to box player. Schweinsteiger was brought through by LVG and played as a number 8 but in recent years has played more of a holding role too.

Bender is not a holding midfielder, he's a box-to-box midfielder. He gets forward and back, he just happens to be not particularly skilful on the ball so he doesn't doing anything eye catching when attacking.

Schweinsteiger still isn't a pure holding DCM. He has played as the most defensively reliable partner in midfields at times, just like Vidal could. Edit: although Vidal would have much more stamina and so cover more ground doing the same job.

You can tell exactly how well Vidal defends by watching him defending. He takes up good positions, tracks runs when their his responsibility and makes tackles, blocks and interceptions.

Pinturicchio

Pro. F wrote: »

Any game I've seen of Juve over the last two seasons (which was plenty last season) Pogba has been switching off defensively at times and Vidal hasn't. I'm not saying that Vidal has played as a holding midfielder, nor that he doesn't get forward a lot. I'm saying he does a lot of defensive work too (I'd say he does more than Pogba) and that he does it very well.

I would agree with you that Pogba can switch off defensively at times (excusable for a 20 year old). Vidal is better at both defending and attacking than Pogba.

Deiseboy01

Ive a question, playing devil's advocate here, are there any posters who do not favour a move for Vidal?

Usually when I see an overwhelming concensus I run the other way! Vidal has been nearly universally lauded, is he that good? Juve have been dominant but how good is the competition? Does having thelikes of Pirlo in the team alongside him allow to look better than he is?

Finally any injury worries surely has to be a major concern given the huge fee and past experience with the likes of Hargreaves.

Ed The Equalizer

Deiseboy01 wrote: »

Ive a question, playing devil's advocate here, are there any posters who do not favour a move for Vidal?

Usually when I see an overwhelming concensus I run the other way! Vidal has been nearly universally lauded, is he that good? Juve have been dominant but how good is the competition? Does having thelikes of Pirlo in the team alongside him allow to look better than he is?

Finally any injury worries surely has to be a major concern given the huge fee and past experience with the likes of Hargreaves.

The knee is a big concern, as it is with Strootman...

MagicIRL

Having worked with Strootman before, and mentioning him several times in his MUFC press conferences, I can see United holding out to get Strootman in come January.

I think Vidal is a great player, but I feel LvG may have his mind set on Vidal. That's not to say we couldn't have both...

PARlance

Deiseboy01 wrote: »

Ive a question, playing devil's advocate here, are there any posters who do not favour a move for Vidal?

Usually when I see an overwhelming concensus I run the other way! Vidal has been nearly universally lauded, is he that good? Juve have been dominant but how good is the competition? Does having thelikes of Pirlo in the team alongside him allow to look better than he is?

Finally any injury worries surely has to be a major concern given the huge fee and past experience with the likes of Hargreaves.

So when you see the overwhelming consensus that we need a CM'er you run away too?

Personally I'd consider having giving Hargreaves some crutches and getting him back, so no, I've no issue with paying big bucks for Vidal.
Even if he has been overhyped slightly, he's still going to add an awful lot in a position we've lacked quality in for years.

weisses

Pro. F wrote: »

Two nil-nil draws at the business end of the tournament. Scoring was a problem for them and ultimately cost them.

You seem to forget how lucky Costa Rica was during that match.

bangkok

as I said here before 40m plus on a 27 year old with a bad knee is a huge risk especially for the type of game he plays. I have a feeling van gaal, the united board and medical staff feel the same. also if van gaal gets the players he wants he will play 4-3-3 with mata behind rvp and rooney.

Backstreet Moyes

Pro. F wrote: »

I wouldn't agree that Argentina had better quality, but regardless that was two games where they set up defensively and failed to score. They also cut it extremely fine by playing defensively against Mexico.

RVP lacking fitness doesn't change that fact either. What Liam said about them having a lot of defenders and a lack of goals is undeniable.

Let;s have a look at both starting line ups.

Holland starting XI: Cillessen, Kuyt, Blind, Vlaar, De Vrij, Martins Indi, De Jong, Wijnaldum, Sneijder, Robben, Van Persie

Argentina starting XI: Romero, Zabaleta, Demichelis, Garay, Rojo, Enzo Pérez, Biglia, Mascherano, Lavezzi, Messi, Higuaín

Now tell me how many players you would have known about from the dutch team before the world cup as top class players. At this stage Robben and a half fit Van Persie.

Let's look at the Argentina team. Zabaleta, Mascherano, Messi and Higuain all world class or very close to it. Demichelis, Garay and Lavezzi all very well known as top class players.

To say that Argentina had not got better quality is wrong it's not even up for discussion, Argentina have far more quality. Also how can you dismiss their only world class striker being not fit. Of course that's going to make a huge difference to scoring goals.

They scored 15 goals in 7 games in the world cup so 1 in 2 goal ratio. In qualifying they scored 34 in 10 games just over 3 goals a game. I am not exactly seeing your proof for this lack of goals.

The fact is against teams of equal of worse quality they win and score heavily. Against teams with better quality they can set up to frustrate and get a result against. That is perfect for United this season to get back in the top 4.

The Moldy Gowl

Nuts102 wrote: »

Let;s have a look at both starting line ups.

Holland starting XI: Cillessen, Kuyt, Blind, Vlaar, De Vrij, Martins Indi, De Jong, Wijnaldum, Sneijder, Robben, Van Persie

Argentina starting XI: Romero, Zabaleta, Demichelis, Garay, Rojo, Enzo Pérez, Biglia, Mascherano, Lavezzi, Messi, Higuaín

Now tell me how many players you would have known about from the dutch team before the world cup as top class players. At this stage Robben and a half fit Van Persie.

Let's look at the Argentina team. Zabaleta, Mascherano, Messi and Higuain all world class or very close to it. Demichelis, Garay and Lavezzi all very well known as top class players.

To say that Argentina had not got better quality is wrong it's not even up for discussion, Argentina have far more quality. Also how can you dismiss their only world class striker being not fit. Of course that's going to make a huge difference to scoring goals.

They scored 15 goals in 7 games in the world cup so 1 in 2 goal ratio. In qualifying they scored 34 in 10 games just over 3 goals a game. I am not exactly seeing your proof for this lack of goals.

The fact is against teams of equal of worse quality they win and score heavily. Against teams with better quality they can set up to frustrate and get a result against. That is perfect for United this season to get back in the top 4.

This is what Fergie had been doing for years.

weisses

Nuts102 wrote: »

You mean the dutch side who were the 2nd highest scorers in the world cup and the 2nd highest scorers in the qualifiers?

Just to be fair ... They played two different systems in qualifying and the WC mainly because Strootman's injury ... That alone shows how important LvG thinks Strootman is for the team

beakerjoe

bangkok wrote: »

as I said here before 40m plus on a 27 year old with a bad knee is a huge risk especially for the type of game he plays. I have a feeling van gaal, the united board and medical staff feel the same. also if van gaal gets the players he wants he will play 4-3-3 with mata behind rvp and rooney.

Will he yeah ? Did he tell you that?

You dont know that.

Macca07

Regarding the discussion about Vidal and who would partner him if he was signed, it would have to be Herrera for me. You don't need a holding defensive midfielder when playing 3 at the back. I think Carrick will get more games this season in the middle of CB rather than midfield. 2 box-to-box players in CM is perfect when playing 3-5-2 (5-3-2).

MagicIRL

Macca07 wrote: »

Regarding the discussion about Vidal and who would partner him if he was signed, it would have to be Herrera for me. You don't need a holding defensive midfielder when playing 3 at the back. I think Carrick will get more games this season in the middle of CB rather than midfield. 2 box-to-box players in CM is perfect when playing 3-5-2 (5-3-2).

Does that not open your back 3 to any counter with pace?

bangkok

beakerjoe wrote: »

Will he yeah ? Did he tell you that?

You dont know that.

its been his preferred system most of his career so I would imagine he will want to continue that with united

Backstreet Moyes

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

This is what Fergie had been doing for years.

Yes and unless we get a top class cb and cm we will need to do it in big games again.

bangkok

imo van gaal will want his team set up like this in the near future
when he gets the players he needs to play this formation

---

de gea

---

Rafael

---

new cb

---

evans

---

Shaw

---

new Holding Midfielder or carrick

---

---

Strootman

---

Herrera

---

---

Mata

---

----Rvp

---

Rooney

---

Maximus Alexander

I have to say lads, it's such a zen experience expecting no more signings with 3 and a half weeks left in the window. All the transfer talk just washes over me like a calm breeze while I look forward to the league kicking off next week. It's quite liberating, you should all come join me.

Giggsy11

MagicIRL wrote: »

Does that not open your back 3 to any counter with pace?

Not really as both won't be making runs at the same time. One attacks and one stays back all the time.

beakerjoe

bangkok wrote: »

its been his preferred system most of his career so I would imagine he will want to continue that with united

It doesnt mean he will use it again though.

beakerjoe

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

I have to say lads, it's such a zen experience expecting no more signings with 3 and a half weeks left in the window. All the transfer talk just washes over me like a calm breeze while I look forward to the league kicking off next week. It's quite liberating, you should all come join me.

Im not happy about it, but Ive come to expect it and Im dealing with it. Hoping we hit the ground running in 2 weeks time

Barca bid for vermalen...kind of glad

We need a better defender...

The Moldy Gowl

Nuts102 wrote: »

Yes and unless we get a top class cb and cm we will need to do it in big games again.

Sorry I meant to add we have done alright for ourself in those years.

But yes we do need a cm and cb

Giggsy11

Cleverley wrote:

"Under the new manager we are being told to think of things as a team but personally it has gone well. I definitely think I can fit into the way he plays. I don’t think I have got to make much adaptation because he likes passers, movers, and people who understand the game."

He rates him way toooooo highly..

bangkok

beakerjoe wrote: »

It doesnt mean he will use it again though.

no but its been tried and tested and it has brought him a lot of success. He only played with wing backs at the world cup as he lost strootman and is only doing the same now at united as he is not happy about he defender options but as long as we keep winning I doubt many people will mind

MagicIRL

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Originally Posted by Cleverley
"Under the new manager we are being told to think of things as a team but personally it has gone well. I definitely think I can fit into the way he plays. I don’t think I have got to make much adaptation because he likes passers, movers, and people who understand the game."

He rates him way toooooo highly..

Tom can literally do none of those things.

bangkok

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Barca bid for vermalen...kind of glad

We need a better defender...

sad thing is good defenders are few and far between now

Just reading there, Rodgers taking first shots at lvg...ooo its on

bucketybuck

Originally Posted by Cleverley
"Under the new manager we are being told to think of things as a team but personally it has gone well. I definitely think I can fit into the way he plays. I don’t think I have got to make much adaptation because he likes passers, movers, and people who understand the game."

Wonder if he likes people who hide from the ball?

MagicIRL

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Just reading there, Rodgers taking first shots at lvg...ooo its on

It'll end with Rodgers embarrassing himself on SSN screaming "I would luv' ih if we beat 'em, luv ih." after United cruise to the title. :cool:

RasTa

I did laugh at that Rodgers crap, he really has a high opinion of himself.

Average-Ro

What did Rodgers say?

Giggsy11

MagicIRL wrote: »

Tom can literally do none of those things.

Best part is.

I definitely think I can fit into the way he plays. I don’t think I have got to make much adaptation because he likes passers, movers, and people who understand the game.

He doesn't need to adapt much as he is Van Gaal type player. Shame last year he was La Liga type player.

Giggsy11

bucketybuck wrote: »

Wonder if he likes people who hide from the ball?

Well he did say "Movers" which means moving away from the ball as much as possible.

v3ttel

MagicIRL wrote: »

Tom can literally do none of those things.

I want to tell you, I might aswell do, about a boy who can't do anything....

RasTa

Average-Ro wrote: »

What did Rodgers say?

Nothing controversial, just his tone and manner.

beakerjoe

Average-Ro wrote: »

What did Rodgers say?

My club is better than your club.....LVG retorted with My Da will batter your Da and Rodgers scarpered.

Coat22

bangkok wrote: »

sad thing is good defenders are few and far between now

Totally agree. Seems to be a view on here that we can just go out and get whichever players take our fancy when the fact is half the top clubs in Europe are looking for new (or strengthening) their central defence and we are worse off than all of them as we lost / let go both of our first choice CBs this summer.

If Vemaelen is available (which he may not be if Arsenal are serious about not selling to a PL team) then we should be going for him. IMO he is better than the 3 that are there already so that would be a start. Plus he can also LVG is on record as saying he needs to bring in defenders so I am assuming they are working on something else but have a horrible feeling we are heading for deadline day panic buying once again.

Central defence is a greater worry for me than midfield at this stage. We can muddle through with Fletcher / Carrick / Fellani / Cleverly supporting Herrara if we have to for the season and probably still finish in the top 4 but if we’re going to play 3-5-2 and our only option is the 3 we currently have then we’re in serious danger of another 7th place finish.

TheDoc

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Just reading there, Rodgers taking first shots at lvg...ooo its on

He can't help himself though. Rodgers should be keeping the head down. This won't be the first time Liverpool have gone into a season of the back of a good one, and as history will tell you, they can sometimes falter big time.

They've made a lot of signings, and spun a story that it's not Totenham like, but buying players that will purpose fit into his plans. He has a less then stellar record in the transfer market, and there could be a fair few duds in that lot.

I don't think he has had a pop at Van Gaal, was probably a genuine opinion. But I think Van Gaal has enough experience and coaching at the highest level not to be phased by the Premier League.

As Max said above, I'm also dieing for the season to kick off. We have had a good pre-season imo, confidence building, and some of the passages of play have been incredible. I'm not expecting a title challenge, but I think my expectations have been slightly raised in that I would hope/expect a top four finish.

I'm not getting my knickers in a twist over signings, I know that we need more, but Van Gaal might be looking at some options or players doing something we arn't aware of, or know.

He has been the most important signing of the summer, and regardless of his CV every manager needs some time to settle and assess things, probably wishful thinking he could do this in what, three weeks?

I do however expect there to be some movement, of players out, and players in. Might not be marquee signings, but think we will see a new face or two. Could be a mental last week or two of the window.

glued

I wouldn't pay much attention to Rodgers. His team bottled it last year and all of a sudden he has an opinion on everything. If Liverpool finish outside the top four then he's a disaster. When he's won a few PL titles then he can have that aura about him but right now he still has it all to prove.

Coat22

TheDoc wrote: »

He can't help himself though. Rodgers should be keeping the head down. This won't be the first time Liverpool have gone into a season of the back of a good one, and as history will tell you, they can sometimes falter big time.

Did anyone hear McAteer’s interview yesterday? He didn’t seem too optimistic about them. More or less said they knew last year was their chance with all the new managers at the top clubs and was going on about how great an achievement it would be if they could finish top 4 again this season.

I don’t think they’ll pose a huge threat if United can get their house in order.

kstand

Woke up this morning and thought to myself, what a contrast a year makes and how great it is to be facing into the start of the season without David Moyes in charge.

I'm very encouraged by the interest in Cuadrado - think he'd fit seamlessly into the system Van Gaal plays. Not sure Barca can outbid us or offer more wages, so down to the player now I think. Also interested to know more about Vidals knee injury - A swap deal to bring in Arda Turan could be the better option if there are genuine concerns with a view to adding Strootman in January.

MagicIRL

The dream well and truly died for Doc when Kroos signed for Madrid. Also, Max? You two BFFs now? Sleeping together? FFS. I feel so left out, and unloved.

weisses

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

I have to say lads, it's such a zen experience expecting no more signings with 3 and a half weeks left in the window. All the transfer talk just washes over me like a calm breeze while I look forward to the league kicking off next week. It's quite liberating, you should all come join me.

Lets see how Zen you really are 2 days before the closing of the transfer-window with now new signings

TheDoc

Coat22 wrote: »

Did anyone hear McAteer’s interview yesterday? He didn’t seem too optimistic about them. More or less said they knew last year was their chance with all the new managers at the top clubs and was going on about how great an achievement it would be if they could finish top 4 again this season.

I don’t think they’ll pose a huge threat if United can get their house in order.

I felt this last year. I remember making a post about how Moyes might get a sweet break, with new managers at the top clubs. That he had a great opportunity having premier league experience and inheriting a title winnign squad. I had assumed the squad would have done most of the work guiding the team back to the title.

Unfortunately we made way too many slipups, but in fairness as did every other team. I'm a big believer that the team that wins the league isnt the one who beats it's rivals, but makes the least amount of slipups.

I thought even at Christmas that the experience of MOyes and our squad, could catchup during the winter schedule, where a lot of teams struggle, but we have the experience. It got even worse. But Chelsea and City did make slipups.

Mourinho and Pellegrini now have a year settled. Arsenal are further opening that mystery chequebook and have an FA cup win boosting confidence. They will be tougher contenders then last year in my view, thats for sure.

Liverpool I think might struggle to cope with the loss of Suarez. Sterling might well fill that void in certain aspects, but Rodgers will need to learn quickly how to juggle the midweek fixtures.

I'm not wishing poor fortune on them, I'm not that type of United fan, but I just honestly feel that they might miss out on 4th this yea. As they made such a focused surge last year with no European distractions, I feel we can do the same.

If I was calling it right now

1) Chelsea
2) City
3) Man United
4) Arsenal
5) Liverpool
6) Totenham

Unless Arsenal do a bit more business, they will suffer injuries like clockwork that derails the good momentum they will no doubt be on.

Regardless of signings, don't think I'll be shifting the above too much before kick off. Some might think I'm being a bit dillusional, but with no European distractions, meaning key players remaining fresher and fitter, I can see the team doing well domestically.