Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Note in OP, 13/8

Rayne Wooney

3 points against Swansea will ease my worry for another week but looking at the possible team line ups over the past few pages you can't help but be a bit concerned

Ed The Equalizer

xtal191 wrote: »

What exactly is wrong with Vidals knee? He never tore his acl did he?

Meniscus I think

Your Airbag

Larry Wildman wrote: »

So Juventus tell us that we can have Vidal (arguably the best midfielder in the world) for €45m plus Chicarito plus Nani, some people think that we shouldn't do the deal?

Jesus Christ.

Nani and Chico could and should net you about 40m if sold correctly. Chico should be at least 20m+ alone.

If Nani can be truned into a success under LVG he could be invaluable.

With Juve thinking, if the story is true, that they can fleece us so boldly I'd be happy to tell them to p*ss off and go for Stootman in January.

FutureGuy

beakerjoe wrote: »

I personally dont think hes worth the money. With his injury record and in my opinion that other better midfielders go for nearly 15 mil less, I dont see why we havent moved on to other targets.

I dont think any player is worth that money bar the AAA players but I would pay it.

Herrera and Vidal as our midfield?

Stellar.

bangkok

xtal191 wrote: »

What exactly is wrong with Vidals knee? He never tore his acl did he?

no, knee cartilage surgery at the beginning of May after suffering a tear to the external meniscus.

Bugatti

homerjay2005 wrote: »

Looks like people have lost patience with Woodward completely now after that Delaney ESPN article, the amount of twitter traffic in his name is at really high levels this morning!

I'll ask you again so since you may have missed my post last night...

Bugatti wrote: »

I'm half asleep so maybe I missed something in that article but I didnt see anything to suggest LVG is pissed off with the club. It said he is annoyed that the Vermalen and Vidal deals have not been completed. But this isnt the clubs fault. Arsenal/Wenger blocked Vermalen from moving to Utd. And as for Vidal the article even said that it was Juventus who are proving difficult to deal with.

Ed The Equalizer

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

3 points against Swansea will ease my worry for another week but looking at the possible team line ups over the past few pages you can't help but be a bit concerned

Likewise, but I'm hopeful he sticks to 5-3-2 and that the system ends up being more important than the personnel...

beakerjoe

Billy86 wrote: »

Which better midfielders go for nearly 15mn less though? Kroos had one year left on his deal and wasn't a great fit for our system in my opinion, unless we switched to a three man midfield with Herrera and Carrick alongside him. But otherwise these claims of better players like him are really, really perplexing to me.

Kroos went for a nice fee under 30 million, so did Fabregas. I believe these are better players and cost less than 45 million. Whats so special about Vidal, if anything hes had a recent serious knee injury and is a big risk, yet we should pay more?

Id rather throw money at Bayern for Schwinstieger

Id like to see Carvalho. Cheaper and has just as much potential to succeed as Vidal for most likely a lower fee.

And how would Kroos not fit in our system? Hes fantastic.

FutureGuy

Your Airbag wrote: »

Nani and Chico could and should net you about 40m if sold correctly. Chico should be at least 20m+ alone.

If Nani can be truned into a success under LVG he could be invaluable.

With Juve thinking they can fleece us I'd be happy to get Stootman in January and tell them to p*ss off.

Not in a million years. Fringe players at very best, something that any prospective club will use, especially when they know we are cutting our squad to 20-21.

Very VERY lucky to get £20m for both.

FutureGuy

beakerjoe wrote: »

Kroos went for a nice fee under 30 million, so did Fabregas. I believe these are better players and cost less than 45 million. Whats so special about Vidal, if anything hes had a recent serious knee injury and is a big risk, yet we should pay more?

Id rather throw money at Bayern for Schwinstieger

Id like to see Carvalho. Cheaper and has just as much potential to succeed as Vidal for most likely a lower fee.

And how would Kroos not fit in our system? Hes fantastic.

Because our manager probably didn't feel he did. And I have no problem with that.

I think LVG plays FIFA Ultimate team, where the chemistry of the team >>> the individual players.

Mitch Connor

Blatter wrote: »

Certain posters keep on saying this, but what exactly has Delaney called for people to believe this? And when I say called, I'm talking about providing genuinely insightful information that we hadn't already seen somewhere else.

On the other hand, there's been plenty of occasions where we can befairly sure he's been talking complete sh*te.

The concept of blind faith has been thrown around here recently. It certainly lends itself to Delaney fans imo.

He called Thiago and Fabregas. Not his fault they didn't happen.

He was running the Mata to United line when no one else was (Woodward had told Ducker, Taylor et al that we weren't in for Mata at the start of January).

He's been at the WC and on holiday this summer so hasn't been looking for United stories.

beakerjoe

FutureGuy wrote: »

Because our manager probably didn't feel he did. And I have no problem with that.

I think LVG plays FIFA Ultimate team, where the chemistry of the team >>> the individual players.

Possibly but Id say the "Manager doesnt think he fits" is a kop out for him wanting Real over us.

FutureGuy

beakerjoe wrote: »

Kroos went for a nice fee under 30 million, so did Fabregas. I believe these are better players and cost less than 45 million. Whats so special about Vidal, if anything hes had a recent serious knee injury and is a big risk, yet we should pay more?

Id rather throw money at Bayern for Schwinstieger

Id like to see Carvalho. Cheaper and has just as much potential to succeed as Vidal for most likely a lower fee.

And how would Kroos not fit in our system? Hes fantastic.

Carvalho has potential.

Vidal is world class right now. At ten to one on a breezy Thursday. Not in 3 years time. Right when we need it with our new defense.

FutureGuy

beakerjoe wrote: »

Possibly but Id say the "Manager doesnt think he fits" is a kop out for him wanting Real over us.

Well that's perfectly fine. I said many times I have no issue with a player not wanting to join us. I'd rather them go where they want, and have players who want to play for us in the squad.

We have had nothing to prove the statement that LVG did not want him (afaik).

beakerjoe

FutureGuy wrote: »

Well that's perfectly fine. I said many times I have no issue with a player not wanting to join us. I'd rather them go where they want, and have players who want to play for us in the squad.

We have had nothing to prove the statement that LVG did not want him (afaik).

True We have no proof, its just my speculative opinion.

Your Airbag

FutureGuy wrote: »

Not in a million years. Fringe players at very best, something that any prospective club will use, especially when they know we are cutting our squad to 20-21.

Very VERY lucky to get £20m for both.

20m for both?

Chico has an awesome goal to minutes ratio and is regarded as a very good striker.

You may be calculating based on the market 10 yrs ago. We are now in a day and age where a good players trade for 50m as opposed to 30m a decade ago. Luiz 50m, Rodrigues 70m or something.

The market has changed and its about time UTD started exploting it when selling. If Chico was going to a big enough club he should fetch 20m. Lukaku sells for 28m these days.

TheTownie

DiMarzio claiming Napoli have made first official contact regards Fellaini.

Translated:

Benitez considers Marouane Fellaini the right player to Reinforce the midfield. Van Gaal ponders, yesterday there was the first official contact between the clubs. Manchester United Reflect, they will communicate to Naples within 48 hours if and how Fellaini could possibly leave the Red Devils. A small opening, Benitez is waiting. Naples pursued as Fellaini.

bangkok

FutureGuy wrote: »

Not in a million years. Fringe players at very best, something that any prospective club will use, especially when they know we are cutting our squad to 20-21.

Very VERY lucky to get £20m for both.

id say a bit more in fairness, shane long 12m to southampton...

hernandez is worth at least 16-20m imo and nani is worth 12-15 in todays market, but the nani of 4 years ago if he was performing to that level is easily 30m +

beakerjoe

Your Airbag wrote: »

20m for both?

Chico has an awesome goal to minutes ratio and is regarded as a very good striker.

You may be calculating based on the market 10 yrs ago. We are now in a day and age where a good players trade for 50m as opposed to 30m a decade ago. Luiz 50m, Rodrigues 70m or something.

The market has chnaged and its about time UTD started exploting it when selling. If Chico was going to a big enough. club he should fetch 20m. Lukaku sells for 28m these days.

Id agree that £20/25 million tops would be about right. Nani isnt worth much these days, Id say £5-8 million for him and around £8-13 million for Javier would be fair.

Luiz to PSG was ridiculous. If PSG were to buy our 2, id say we'd get 30-35 from them ejjits:pac:

homerjay2005

keane2097 wrote: »

The fact that people are giving credit to a journalist talking garbage about a 45M + two players transfer lolfiasco while other people are complaining about giving journalists too little credit is mind-bending.

i think context is the key here so your point doesnt really hold any merit.

Blatter

Mitch Connor wrote: »

He called Thiago and Fabregas. Not his fault they didn't happen.

He was running the Mata to United line when no one else was (Woodward had told Ducker, Taylor et al that we weren't in for Mata at the start of January).

He's been at the WC and on holiday this summer so hasn't been looking for United stories.

He called Thiago and Fabregas before there was any concrete links? I don't recall that at all. I do remember him stating that Chelsea were in for Thiago at the start of last Summer though, something I'd be very sceptical about to say the least, as there were no concrete links there as the Summer progressed.

The Mata thing had been mooted in other papers before Delaney reported it. It's very thin evidence.

When the likes of Ducker, Jackson, Taylor, Ladyman, Ogden etc. are specifically briefed about something at United (they all tend to report that news at around the same time), it's funny how Delaney is nowhere to be seen.

Billy86

beakerjoe wrote: »

Kroos went for a nice fee under 30 million, so did Fabregas. I believe these are better players and cost less than 45 million. Whats so special about Vidal, if anything hes had a recent serious knee injury and is a big risk, yet we should pay more?

Id rather throw money at Bayern for Schwinstieger

Id like to see Carvalho. Cheaper and has just as much potential to succeed as Vidal for most likely a lower fee.

And how would Kroos not fit in our system? Hes fantastic.

Again, Kroos had one year left on his deal which has a huge effect on the deal. I would be very happy with Schweinsteiger but I am assuming especially with some of their injury news and the loss of Kroos that Bayern flat out will not sell him now. Kroos would not be a very good fit for us, though Schweinsteiger would be better he is 30 so we would likely be looking to get about 3 years of his best out of him, instead of around 6 with Vidal.

Kroos does not offer enough defensively to work with anyone we have in a two man midfield (three man technically, but Mata is playing a very advanced role). For Germany they used a different system with Lahm/Khedira typically laying the furthest role back, Schweinsteiger in the middle and Kroos a bit more advanced. All contributed going backwards and forward and Kroos is not a complete defensive liability, but he doesn't anchor things quite as much as the two behind him do/did. It would be fine for most teams, but we would have to completely shuffle the deck for the tougher games in the season.

Not saying I would have been anything bit delighted to have Kroos of course, but in it current system with our current personnel we would not be getting the best from him, which is why I am guessing LVG reportedly withdrew out interest.

Fabregas to us would have made no sense to us without a three man midfield. Same problem as Kroos, but far more pronounced.

Carvalho does have a lot of potential but I personally don't see him getting quite to the level of Vidal, though you never know. We need someone for now though, not down the line, to shoot us right back into contention and to get the disaster that was last season out of everyone's mind. That's why I usually wouldn't be a fan at all of signing an older player like Schweinsteiger but would consider this summer a different situation (mind you, I don't think he is available at any price).

Rubber_Soul

I really wish people would stop using poor value transfers like Luiz as a yardstick for all future transfers.

redbaron_99

bangkok wrote: »

id say a bit more in fairness, shane long 12m to southampton...

hernandez is worth at least 16-20m imo and nani is worth 12-15 in todays market, but the nani of 4 years ago if he was performing to that level is easily 30m +

No way nani is worth 15 million. More like 5 million. Id agree on Chico, maybe even a little more than your estimate.

alchemist33

Just did the OT tour and I asked the Vidal question. The answer wasn't definitive but it made me very hopeful.

bullvine

Shane long going for 12m, Borini for 14m, Ross Mccormack was 12m, surely Chico is worth 20m?

bullvine

redbaron_99 wrote: »

No way nani is worth 15 million. More like 5 million. Id agree on Chico, maybe even a little more than your estimate.

Nani is worth about 8-12m at the moment

beakerjoe

alchemist33 wrote: »

Just did the OT tour and I asked the Vidal question. The answer wasn't definitive but it made me very hopeful.

Ha Id say id have more reliable answers in my fridge than some tour guide at OT. :pac: They probably know less than us

redbaron_99

TheTownie wrote: »

DiMarzio claiming Napoli have made first official contact regards Fellaini.

Translated:

Think it would be foolish to get rid of him, although I do think he will be moved.
If fletcher can't stay fit, and that's a serious possibility, we are then left with cleverley as a starter for the first few months of the season.

Bizarre transfer policy. Truly f*ckin Bizarre.

beakerjoe

bullvine wrote: »

Shane long going for 12m, Borini for 14m, Ross Mccormack was 12m, surely Chico is worth 20m?

Its different though, we are most likely looking to sell where as Hull and Leeds are looking to hold on for the biggest price. We havent got that luxury.

Borini is a head scratcher though.

Lord TSC

Sky saying Sparkta Moskow are due 20% of any fee above 4m for Rojo, which seemed to come from whatever Sporting got, meaning a 16m bid would see them get pretty much nothing by the sounds of it.....I think. Wasn't clear if the 20% came before the 75% or not....

homerjay2005

bullvine wrote: »

Shane long going for 12m, Borini for 14m, Ross Mccormack was 12m, surely Chico is worth 20m?

its been an insane Summer, though when you see Kroos moving for £24m, it restores a little bit of faith.

beakerjoe

Lord TSC wrote: »

Sky saying Sparkta Moskow are due 20% of any fee above 4m for Rojo, which seemed to come from whatever Sporting got, meaning a 16m bid would see them get pretty much nothing by the sounds of it.....I think. Wasn't clear if the 20% came before the 75% or not....

If it goes through Sporting will get F all money from this. God I hate these third party owners. Scum, sub human scum.

Will I Amnt

Lord TSC wrote: »

Sky saying Sparkta Moskow are due 20% of any fee above 4m for Rojo, which seemed to come from whatever Sporting got, meaning a 16m bid would see them get pretty much nothing by the sounds of it.....I think. Wasn't clear if the 20% came before the 75% or not....

If that's what they signed up for then tough sh*t really.

Will I Amnt

beakerjoe wrote: »

If it goes through Sporting will get F all money from this. God I hate these third party owners. Scum, sub human scum.

The 3rd party owners pay their way, it's the clubs crying about not getting the money when the player comes good that pisses me off.

The club is minimising risk if it doesn't work out. You can't have it both ways.

Copper_pipe

Lord TSC wrote: »

Sky saying Sparkta Moskow are due 20% of any fee above 4m for Rojo, which seemed to come from whatever Sporting got, meaning a 16m bid would see them get pretty much nothing by the sounds of it.....I think. Wasn't clear if the 20% came before the 75% or not....

Recorded it all on the phone. Will have it up here once its done

Rubber_Soul

bullvine wrote: »

Shane long going for 12m, Borini for 14m, Ross Mccormack was 12m, surely Chico is worth 20m?

Ivan Rakitic €18m, Adam Lallana €31m. There's too many variables other than how good a player is when it comes to the price of a transfer.

keane2097

homerjay2005 wrote: »

i think context is the key here so your point doesnt really hold any merit.

Is the context to do with people not believing the articles you do, and believing some other articles that you don't?

Lord TSC

Will I Amnt wrote: »

The 3rd party owners pay their way, it's the clubs crying about not getting the money when the player comes good that pisses me off.

The club is minimising risk if it doesn't work out. You can't have it both ways.

Yeah, would agree. It's hard on the club but they knew what they were getting when they signed up.

Billy86

redbaron_99 wrote: »

No way nani is worth 15 million. More like 5 million. Id agree on Chico, maybe even a little more than your estimate.

Nani is definitely worth more than 5mn. 5mn in today's market is probably around 2mn a decade ago. While he has not been getting his game for us in recent times, he still has almost 80 Portuguese caps, plenty of time left at 27, and has shown that when on form he can be a top quality player. I actually think he would excel in Serie A and if Juve really are interested they might have been paying attention to Gervinho at Roma last year. I would have had him as a 20mn player in today's market, but reports of lots of niggling injuries over the last 18 months or so combined with hi looking to have lost some of his burst over his first 2-3 steps the few times we have given him a game would likely lower than to the 12-15 mark. The best for both parties if we sold him would be a lower initial price with a good few conditional fees in there for if he did well.

The issue with Hernandez is that he is quality off the ball and a very composed finisher with a decent header on him, but he has very little else to his game. Brilliant option off the bench, but for top teams I don't know how well he would fit in when expected to do more than pop up with a goal while offering very little else. If they want him as part of the deal then fair enough but it would be hard to see him go because he is our best option off the bench since Solskjaer before his injuries, and likewise a very likeable guy. If I was a team looking to finish top 4 I would definitely not want him as my teams leading striker, but at the same time I think he could offer a lot to any team in the entire world as a squad option off the bench. He is a really difficult player to quantify the value for for me because of this.

Mitch Connor

Blatter wrote: »

He called Thiago and Fabregas before there was any concrete links? I don't recall that at all. I do remember him stating that Chelsea were in for Thiago at the start of last Summer though, something I'd be very sceptical about to say the least, as there were no concrete links there as the Summer progressed.

The Mata thing had been mooted in other papers before Delaney reported it. It's very thin evidence.

When the likes of Ducker, Jackson, Taylor, Ladyman, Ogden etc. are specifically briefed about something at United (they all tend to report that news at around the same time), it's funny how Delaney is nowhere to be seen.

Because Miguel doesn't get briefed by the club.

When the norther press pack are briefed, they are all fed info directly and deliberately by the club, and in a lot of cases, Woodward directly. It was Woodward who briefed on the Monday that Moyes was going, for example. Miguel doesn't have that access to Woodward. Miguel has a contact/source working at the club who gives him info off the record. Two different ways of getting info, that is why things can be different.

I would also say the NPP fellas have their sources too, not everythign they get is breifed directly.

Mitch Connor

Lord TSC wrote: »

Yeah, would agree. It's hard on the club but they knew what they were getting when they signed up.

anyone know what control a player has over 3rd party ownership.

Can his rights (or a portion of them) be sold to a 3rd party against his wishes, or would it be similar to signing for a club?

Always wonder how much sympathy you can/should have in these situations for players.

homerjay2005

keane2097 wrote: »

Is the context to do with people not believing the articles you do, and believing some other articles that you don't?

no, the context is who is writing the articles.

FutureGuy

Your Airbag wrote: »

20m for both?

Chico has an awesome goal to minutes ratio and is regarded as a very good striker.

You may be calculating based on the market 10 yrs ago. We are now in a day and age where a good players trade for 50m as opposed to 30m a decade ago. Luiz 50m, Rodrigues 70m or something.

The market has changed and its about time UTD started exploting it when selling. If Chico was going to a big enough club he should fetch 20m. Lukaku sells for 28m these days.

Yes you hit the nail on the head...we currently do not. We have a history of selling our players for chips. I think that will go on and on and on. So what they are worth is not the price we will get for them imo.

Rubber_Soul

FutureGuy wrote: »

Yes you hit the nail on the head...we currently do not. We have a history of selling our players for chips. I think that will go on and on and on. So what they are worth is not the price we will get for them imo.

How many players have left Utd that the club really wanted to hold on to? Most of the time when we're selling it's because the club want them gone so obviously we're not going to get top money for them.

keane2097

homerjay2005 wrote: »

no, the context is who is writing the articles.

Realistically, the context is that everyone finds articles that say the things they already believe as more credible.

My point is that if people are willing to believe the guff Tancredi Palmeri is dribbling out then if anything they're far too credulous about journalists. Certainly Mitch's wailing about "the cynicism and dismissal of every football journalist" is bizarro in that light.

I made the point a few days ago that credible stories and conjecture are pretty easy to distinguish between in the context of a BBC report on Rojo, think it's pretty clear yourself and many others on this thread are happy to believe whatever story happens to agree with you is coming directly from the club, while being more sensible about the rest.

In this case you seem to think that someone clued in has told Miguel that LVG is getting pissed off. I would have it as a lot more likely that Miguel hasn't been told that by anyone with a direct line into LVG's psyche and is just making a reasonable guess.

There seems to be a suspension of critical thinking whenever an article is published that agrees with the guesswork of people on this thread.

NeVeR

What do people make of the rumors that Javier Hernández's will move to Juve as part of a swap deal for Vidal.

I know it's old news.. but how do people feel about Hernández leaving ? -- While I don't think he'd get to start many games he was ( the majority of the time ) a great sub to bring on and change the game.

Larry Wildman

People aren't comparing like with like.

Vidal is a player who only recently renewed his contract and who's at the peak of his powers. He's a key player at Juve and they don't want to sell him.

Kroos was entering Bosman territory and Fabregas was surplus to requirements.

Nani and Chicharito are clearly peripheral figures at United.

It's a deal worth doing.

FutureGuy

NeVeR wrote: »

What do people make of the rumors that Javier Hernández's will move to Juve as part of a swap deal for Vidal.

I know it's old news.. but how do people feel about Hernández leaving ? -- While I don't think he'd get to start many games he was ( the majority of the time ) a great sub to bring on and change the game.

I'd like him to stay as a good bench option, but I love the little fcuker and I'd be happier to see him play week in week out and be happy (if that's what he wants).

Maximus Alexander

NeVeR wrote: »

What do people make of the rumors that Javier Hernández's will move to Juve as part of a swap deal for Vidal.

I know it's old news.. but how do people feel about Hernández leaving ? -- While I don't think he'd get to start many games he was ( the majority of the time ) a great sub to bring on and change the game.

My heart doesn't want to see Hernandez or Nani leave, but my head is saying there's no point keeping either around for sentimental reasons, it doesn't look like they have much in the way of a future at the club.