Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Note in OP, 13/8

glued

Didn't we have to play Keane and Silvestre against Chelsea one year. That team had Smith, Djemba-Djemba, Fortune and Miller in it!

homerjay2005

for the team above, i forgot about kagawa, he will surely be on the bench tomorrow also instead of Wilson meaning we have no striker on the bench.

bullvine wrote: »

Mid table team?? Really, what utter nonsense.

we finished 7th last year and that would be weaker most, if not all teams that we put out last year. no need to throw the digs out for a point that alot of people would agree with.

glued wrote: »

Didn't we have to play Keane and Silvestre against Chelsea one year. That team had Smith, Djemba-Djemba, Fortune and Miller in it!

indeed, tomorrow will prob be the weakest team we have put out since that day and/or season.

Howard, Silvestre, Gary Neville, Keane, Fortune, Miller, O'Shea, Djemba-Djemba, Giggs, Scholes, Smith. Subs: Ricardo, Phil Neville, Bellion, Richardson, Forlan.

How Soon Is Now

Liam O wrote: »

You don't think Nani was a success? 14-17m and was the best player in the league for about 1 and a half-2 seasons. Rafael who was bought for peanuts and first choice RB for 4 or 5 years. Hernandez, 7m and got some really big goals. If you really believe that then your standards are too high.

It's also amazing how much larger transfer fees get when someone is criticising them.

Im not starting **** with you cause theres enough of that on here but for a long time now you have had a serious love in with Nani.

I dunno how at this stage maybe a year or two ago but at this stage anyone can make excuses for him. If we where another club with better competition in that area he would of been gone long ago.

Billy86

beakerjoe wrote: »

Which team? It wasnt United.

If he ever had a good game, it was rarely followed up with any performances of simpler caliber.

From around Jan 2011 to May 2012 (ish) he was probably our best player and was doing really well. Then it all mysteriously went south.

Pro. F

I'm not particularly worried about the transfers just yet.

The way I see it we only really need one to three defenders, and two of those purely for cover. That shouldn't be too hard to do in 16 days. And I have no reason to doubt LVG's claims about only starting to look for signings when he got back from the tour, so it's not as if the club has been trying all summer and failing up to this point.

---

What does concern me however is the team's defensive shape. This flat back 5 with just 2 CMs trying to cover the width of the pitch in front of them is not like anything I've seen or heard of before and I can't imagine how it could work reliably, no matter what defenders and central midfielders we might sign.

Normally 3 CB/2 WB systems work defensively by having one wing-back or central-midfielder drop alongside or into the back three CBs to make a line of four. Then the remaining wing-back(s), CMs and, if needed, one forward form a midfield bank of four. So you still end up with two banks of four to protect your goal, ie. defence with width and depth.

We're currently doing something completely different to that, where our defensive shape is 523. At first I thought that it was being planned so that one of the back 5 - be it CB or WB, depending on where the ball and cover is - would always step up into midfield and one of the front 3 would drop back, but that doesn't seem to happen very consistently. Maybe the players are still getting used to the system and they'll start stepping up and dropping back more confidently as they get used to it. It's not something I think would be sorted by buying better defenders, if the management can't get these guys into a solid defensive shape, I don't think they'd be able to do it with anyone else either.

At the moment, the upshot of this shape is that we leave loads of room in front of the back line for the opposition to take long shots and pick out through balls. Our defenders are having to defend facing their own goal far too often, and I think when the competitive games start that will be punished by good opposition.

I realise that there are lots of different ways to do things in football and sometimes you can be surprised by seeing an unfamiliar system doing something you thought impossible, but this defensive system just seems too flawed to me.

On the positive side, the work in possession and attack has been lovely to watch. So maybe we'll just outscore everybody.

brinty

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

At the end of the day, in fairness, for Christ's sake.

Gobobbles

xtal191

bangkok

homerjay2005 wrote: »

7 players in total not available for tomorrow according to LVG and 9 players shipped out. i guess this is our squad then for tomorrow.

---

DDG

---

Young---Jones--- Smalling

---

Blackett----James.

---

Herrera

---

Fletcher

---

---

Mata

---

---

Rooney

---

Hernandez

---

Subs : Lindegaard, Keane, Cleverly, Fellaini, Adnan, Nani and errm, Wilson??


on paper, it looks like a midtable team - theres 6,maybe even 7 players there tomorrow who wouldnt get into our rivals teams this weekend.

mid table? really? one of the best goalkeepers in the world, 2 of englands future centre backs, James looked very good pre season, Herrera is class (you probably haven't seen much of him im guessing) a fit Darren fletcher is a great midfielder, then ahead of that Mata (world class) rooney (world class) and hernandez

Backstreet Moyes

Prop Joe wrote: »

Yes - Lukaku - Baines - Coleman - McCarthy - Barkley - Lloris - Vertongan - Eriksson - Sandro

All would walk onto THAT united team

Baines would be close i would rather shaw.

Lukaku would be behind RVP and Rooney so no

Coleman he would

McCarthy probably would

Barkley best position behind the striker so no he wouldn't

Lloris not a hope

Vertonghen yes

Erikson not behind the striker no

Sandro yes but a sicknote

beakerjoe

bangkok wrote: »

mid table? really? one of the best goalkeepers in the world, 2 of englands future centre backs, James looked very good pre season, Herrera is class (you probably haven't seen much of him im guessing) a fit Darren fletcher is a great midfielder, then ahead of that Mata (world class) rooney (world class) and hernandez

England are awful. Wouldnt be using them two (esp Smalling) to defend our frailties.

bucketybuck

glued wrote: »

Didn't we have to play Keane and Silvestre against Chelsea one year. That team had Smith, Djemba-Djemba, Fortune and Miller in it!

Even then there is a big difference between sending Roy Keane out at CB and putting a young lad in for his big game debut. As I recall Keane was judged to be an excellent defender, I remember frequent comments back in the day about how he would naturally end up back there as he got older. It didn't happen, but had he stayed injury free it might well have.

Montroseee

Liam O wrote: »

You don't think Nani was a success? 14-17m and was the best player in the league for about 1 and a half-2 seasons. Rafael who was bought for peanuts and first choice RB for 4 or 5 years. Hernandez, 7m and got some really big goals. If you really believe that then your standards are too high.

It's also amazing how much larger transfer fees get when someone is criticising them.

Such a laughable statement, funniest thing I've seen on here in a while in fact. If you said that in a crowd of football fans you'd get laughed out of it .

redbaron_99

I must say, I'm a tad worried about the midfield tomorrow.

Fletcher & Herrera
Vs
Shelvey, Sigurdsson & Ki

With so many players out, the lads are going to have to be really on their games tomorrow.

Rayne Wooney

Pro. F wrote: »

I'm not particularly worried about the transfers just yet.

The way I see it we only really need one to three defenders, and two of those purely for cover. That shouldn't be too hard to do in 16 days. And I have no reason to doubt LVG's claims about only starting to look for signings when he got back from the tour, so it's not as if the club has been trying all summer and failing up to this point.

---

What does concern me however is the team's defensive shape. This flat back 5 with just 2 CMs trying to cover the width of the pitch in front of them is not like anything I've seen or heard of before and I can't imagine how it could work reliably, no matter what defenders and central midfielders we might sign.

Normally 3 CB/2 WB systems work defensively by having one wing-back or central-midfielder drop alongside or into the back three CBs to make a line of four. Then the remaining wing-back(s), CMs and, if needed, one forward form a midfield bank of four. So you still end up with two banks of four to protect your goal, ie. defence with width and depth.

We're currently doing something completely different to that, where our defensive shape is 523. At first I thought that it was being planned so that one of the back 5 - be it CB or WB, depending on where the ball and cover is - would always step up into midfield and one of the front 3 would drop back, but that doesn't seem to happen very consistently. Maybe the players are still getting used to the system and they'll start stepping up and dropping back more confidently as they get used to it. It's not something I think would be sorted by buying better defenders, if the management can't get these guys into a solid defensive shape, I don't think they'd be able to do it with anyone else either.

At the moment, the upshot of this shape is that we leave loads of room in front of the back line for the opposition to take long shots and pick out through balls. Our defenders are having to defend facing their own goal far too often, and I think when the competitive games start that will be punished.

I realise that there are lots of different ways to do things in football and sometimes you can be surprised by seeing an unfamiliar system doing something you thought impossible, but this defensive system just seems too flawed to me. At the moment I have a very hard time believing that all that space in front of the static back 5 won't be exploited regularly by good opposition.

On the positive side, the work in possession and attack has been lovely to watch. So maybe we'll just outscore everybody.

It was the same at the World Cup for Holland so that must be the way Van Gaal has told them to play, I said after the Mexico match I think that I wouldn't like to see him bring it to United. It's car crash defending, you have to watch it from behind the couch, it reminds me of watching Real Madrid defend.

Blatter

The worst backline I've ever seen United put out in PL game was against Fulham in 09 during a defensive injury crisis.

Fletcher-Carrick-De Laet-Evra


Beat that!

TheTownie

Manchester United ‏@ManUtd 6m
Louis van Gaal has told #MUTV that Brazilian defender Rafael is fit again. #mufc

bullvine

one against Spurs in 95 with Pilkington in nets was pretty bad, and prunier at Center half

Christy Browne

Rafael is confirmed as fit so I reckon we'll line up like this:

De Gea
Rafael - Jones - Smalling - Blackett - Young
Herrera - Fletcher
Mata
Rooney - Hernandez

bangkok

Montroseee wrote: »

Such a laughable statement, funniest thing I've seen on here in a while in fact. If you said that in a crowd of football fans you'd get laughed out of it lol .

in 2010/11 I would totally agree, nani was probably the best player in the league and should have won pfa player of the year, utd were champions, Nani was man Utds player of the year and he was actually unplayable

bullvine

Nani had a phenomenal 2010 -2011

Vic Vinegar

Blatter wrote: »

Fletcher-Carrick-De Laet-Evra


Beat that!

Fulham did!

Christy Browne

Montroseee wrote: »

Such a laughable statement, funniest thing I've seen on here in a while in fact. If you said that in a crowd of football fans you'd get laughed out of it .

Nani was world class that year, obviously his performances have dipped since then but I reckon he was worth the 17 million we paid

RayCun

Crimson King wrote: »

I keep hearing this argument, and it’s a false one. VG has had 3 weeks with the team now and is moulding them into the way he wants them playing for the start of the season. It will take longer than 3 weeks to make him 100% happy but at least he had the 3 weeks.

Now, if we sign someone in 2 weeks’ time for example, regardless of how talented or big named they are they will need time to play the system he wants and for him to fully know the players strengths and weaknesses.

The first match is Saturday, so van Gaal has had less than 4 weeks with the squad. Let's say then that _any_ new signing will take 4 weeks before they are ready to start a match.
In the next 4 weeks, United play Swansea, Sunderland, Burnley, and QPR.

Now also remember that the first player we went for but failed to sign was Vermaelen. Nobody was going to arrive earlier than him. His transfer went through last week, 4 weeks from then means he would have missed the Swansea, Burnley, and QPR games anyway (and now he's injured too).

Let's say United don't sign anyone until ten minutes before the window closes. The additional games they miss, compared to our earliest possible signings, are QPR, Leicester, and West Ham

kippy

nuxxx wrote: »

So Woodwards "Watch this space" is looking like typical PR bs so far

Nani has been rubbish for a couple of years now, same as Valencia. Reminiscing about glories past isn't gonna win us games this season

I wonder are the glaziers looking at selling the asset pretty soon?
The playing staff hasn't had enough investment in the past number of years and this has been mirrored under Gill/Fergie (in the later years) and Woodward/Moyes and now LvG (unless something major is going to happen).
It's not that money hasn't been spent, but in comparison to the other clubs they are competing with and the gaps in the squad, not enough......

This would lead me to believe that after all of these major (sponsorhip etc) deals have been announced the glaziers will offload a lot more of the club and let someone else pick up the pieces. The club has never been valued as highly and I beleive the glaziers have already sold off a portion of the club at this point.
Perhaps this playing staff issue is as a result from orders on high!

Maximus Alexander

I wonder can Vermijl play RWB? :eek:

bucketybuck

kippy wrote: »

I wonder are the glaziers looking at selling the asset pretty soon?
The playing staff hasn't had enough investment in the past number of years

There has been no problem with releasing funds for players, the problem has been who we spent it on.

Larry Wildman

bullvine wrote: »

one against Spurs in 95 with Pilkington in nets was pretty bad, and prunier at Center half

4-1 at Christmas time...I remember it well. Some shambolic defending for a Sol Campbell goal springs to mind.

Outrageous claims in the last few pages re Nani being the best player in the league over a period.

homerjay2005

sums it up perfectly to be honest.

Daniel Taylor @DTguardian · 2m
Find it bizarre that #MUFC starting season like this. Four defenders out, only one in. Really have to question their planning.

Montroseee

bangkok wrote: »

in 2010/11 I would totally agree, nani was probably the best player in the league and should have won pfa player of the year, utd were champions, Nani was man Utds player of the year and he was actually unplayable

No Nani should never have won pfa player of the year for 10/11. Bale was rightly voted POTY, his performances in the league and in particular the CL were incredible. Nani had some unbelievable matches but was never consistently brilliant like Bale was. It's funny the way both their careers have gone since then, Bale one of the world's top players and Nani will nearly have to be given away.

Blatter

Daniel Taylor @DTguardian
Van Gaal was asked about the transfer situation etc in second section of press conf (embargoed until tonight)

Vic Vinegar

Blatter wrote: »

Daniel Taylor @DTguardian
Van Gaal was asked about the transfer situation etc in second section of press conf (embargoed until tonight)

I read a tweet from someone who said they were asked not to ask anything about transfers in the 3pm presser, not sure how true that is though.

Reedsie

Bombleswizzum wrote: »

I read a tweet from someone who said they were asked not to ask anything about transfers in the 3pm presser, not sure how true that is though.

They run the second part of the press conference with the cameras off and the content is not released until tomorrow's papers. I don't know how they decide what questions go where though. Presume it's United's decision.

Maximus Alexander

Reedsie wrote: »

They run the second part of the press conference with the cameras off and the content is not released until tomorrow's papers. I don't know how they decide what questions go where though. Presume it's United's decision.

Presumably that means we'll start hearing about it at midnight?

ElChe32

Obviously Vidal Hummels and Di Maria came out and sat beside LVG for the 2nd part of the press conference.

Right you guys?? RIIIIGHT ((((

bullvine

homerjay2005 wrote: »

sums it up perfectly to be honest.

Its insane!

MagicMarker

homerjay2005 wrote: »

sums it up perfectly to be honest.

Well if LVG thinks Blackett, Keane & James are good enough then technically it's 4 defenders out and 4 defenders in.

The_Kew_Tour

MagicMarker wrote: »

Well if LVG thinks Blackett, Keane & James are good enough then technically it's 4 defenders out and 4 defenders in.

I cant believe you can say that with straight face.

We find it hard to push through youngsters, hardly get 3 in one go.

Liam O

Montroseee wrote: »

No Nani should never have won pfa player of the year for 10/11. Bale was rightly voted POTY, his performances in the league and in particular the CL were incredible. Nani had some unbelievable matches but was never consistently brilliant like Bale was. It's funny the way both their careers have gone since then, Bale one of the world's top players and Nani will nearly have to be given away.

Well that's funny since Nani scored or assisted in far more games than Bale that season you'd think it would be the opposite when talking consistency. Guess not.

Reedsie

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Presumably that means we'll start hearing about it at midnight?

Yep. Although if I remember correctly information is sometimes not released until the Sunday papers. Open to correction though.

Larry Wildman

Blatter wrote: »

Daniel Taylor @DTguardian
Van Gaal was asked about the transfer situation etc in second section of press conf (embargoed until tonight)

Was about to post this...it can only mean that a material event is happening today (i.e. material to the share price).

redbaron_99

Larry Wildman wrote: »

Was about to post this...it can only mean that a material event is happening today (i.e. material to the share price).

No, it doesn't mean that at all. IF there was a transfer about to be announced, it would not be told to a whole room of journos at the Friday pre-match presser, cameras or no cameras.
They close parts of the pressers off so that Journoss have "exclusive" material for the weekend papers.

Mikeyt086

Liam O wrote: »

Well that's funny since Nani scored or assisted in far more games than Bale that season you'd think it would be the opposite when talking consistency. Guess not.

There was uproar in this thread when Bale got the award instead of Nani. I don't know why some people have decided to erase that season from their memories, but apparently they have. Nani was our best player and certainly one of the most dangerous in the league.

You just have to learn when to give up. It's not worth the debate.

DM_7

Mata spoke about the need for fitness in the 3-4-1-2 style. I would expect that he will be at 10 and expected to press initially when possession is lost. If they don't get it back he is going to have to retreat to midfield, as will Rooney.

bangkok

its gas, we get rid of Ferdinand, evra vidic and buttner and everyone is delighted saying they are terrible, past it (maybe not vidic) etc etc now giving out saying we got rid of 4 and only got 1 in... one as in shaw, but how many have actually seen Keane, Blackett, james play like 10 or more games? Valencia has been converted to a right back now so technically another defender.... but I will agree we are short but no champions league football this year I wouldn't be panicking

MagicMarker

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I cant believe you can say that with straight face.

We find it hard to push through youngsters, hardly get 3 in one go.

I can't believe people are simplifying things to such a degree where x players out versus y players in = OH MY GOD IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD!!!

The fact is we have Shaw/Young/James for LWB, Rafael/Young/Valencia for RWB, and we have Jones/Smalling/Evans/Blackett/Keane for CB. Is it ideal? No. We ideally need another senior CB, but I'm quite happy for LVG to give Blackett/Keane a chance after the pre-season they had. Another WB would be nice but not the end of the world if it doesn't happen.

Vic Vinegar

DM-ICE wrote: »

Mata spoke about the need for fitness in the 3-4-1-2 style. I would expect that he will be at 10 and expected to press initially when possession is lost. If they don't get it back he is going to have to retreat to midfield, as will Rooney.

That's where I would be a bit worried about Mata's input in that formation (when having to press or defend) he's not very strong or the most athletic player.

homerjay2005

bangkok wrote: »

its gas, we get rid of Ferdinand, evra vidic and buttner and everyone is delighted saying they are terrible, past it (maybe not vidic) etc etc now giving out saying we got rid of 4 and only got 1 in

define people? considering it was me who brought this up a few minutes ago, i assume your hinting at me here when you say this?

you will see dozens of posts from me over last few months about Evra where i said it was a mistake to get rid of him and while im sure we all were not happy with Rio last season, i would have loved to see him kept. no problem selling butter in essence, but it was a huge mistake to sell him without having replacements in.

the "people" who were happy to see them lads go are not the ones "giving out".

MagicIRL

I think Rooney will drop back first, and mata will stay up to link with the 2nd striker (RVP)

Reedsie

bangkok wrote: »

its gas, we get rid of Ferdinand, evra vidic and buttner and everyone is delighted saying they are terrible, past it (maybe not vidic) etc etc now giving out saying we got rid of 4 and only got 1 in... one as in shaw, but how many have actually seen Keane, Blackett, james play like 10 or more games? Valencia has been converted to a right back now so technically another defender.... but I will agree we are short but no champions league football this year I wouldn't be panicking

MagicMarker wrote: »

I can't believe people are simplifying things to such a degree where x players out versus y players in = OH MY GOD IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD!!!

The fact is we have Shaw/Young/James for LWB, Rafael/Young/Valencia for RWB, and we have Jones/Smalling/Evans/Blackett/Keane for CB. Is it ideal? No. We ideally need another senior CB, but I'm quite happy for LVG to give Blackett/Keane a chance after the pre-season they had.

Plus it's entirely possible that Carrick will be used as the stepping out CB in the future, especially if we sign another CM.

Pro. F

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

It was the same at the World Cup for Holland so that must be the way Van Gaal has told them to play, I said after the Mexico match I think that I wouldn't like to see him bring it to United. It's car crash defending, you have to watch it from behind the couch, it reminds me of watching Real Madrid defend.

TBH I didn't watch the Dutch defensive shape in the WC as closely as I have United's this pre-season. But I don't remember the Netherlands having a flat bank of 5 defenders with two central midfielders hopelessly outnumbered, trying to cover the whole width of the pitch in front of their defence.